/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

In the US & Canada we use the terms mainline versus evangelical Protestants. Mainline protestants are the only ones who allow women clergy.

>>846636

Are there mainline and evangelical varieties of every denomination, or are there some which are only evangelical?

Also, do churches clearly advertise if they are mainline or evangelical?

I'm going to be looking for a church in my region which firmly promotes conservative social values regarding sex and gender and I'm wondering what I should be looking for.

>>846640

What's your region?

There are mainline and evangelical denominations in each tradition, like mainline versus evangelical Baptists or mainline versus evangelical wesleyans. This is the simplified answer btw

>>846644

Vancouver Island, British Columbia

>>846628

>mainstream Christianity won't be equipped to denigrate . . .

mainstream Christianity isn't good for anything in Canada. Catholicism or smaller Baptist churches are your only option. I would recommend Catholicism because a Baptist church is only as strong as it's pastor

>>846645

Gorgeous landscape but that's a challenge bro. The Pacific Northwest is the least churched region of the continent.

I recommend the Canadian national Baptist convention as a denomination.

Are you in Victoria or somewhere else? Without doxing yourself I would be happy to scope out the churches with you based on their sites

>>846648

>Catholicism

Honestly, I'm strongly considering this, since Catholics do accept evolution as factual. However, the requirement that priests be celibate as well as the fact that the Church protects paedophiles really puts me off.

Honestly, I know there are some Mennonite in the region so I might look into their churches. I might end up compromising on evolution if the church meets my needs.

>>846649

I'm actually intending to move sometime in the next few months, possibly to the mainland, so I may just put off looking for a church until then.

>>846652

If you're moving soon now is the perfect time to hop around so you can get a better picture imo

My 2¢ creationism is highly associated with traditionalism for a reason, because the same first principles arrive you at both

>>846653

>the same first principles arrive you at both

How so?

>>846654

Viewing scripture as inerrant demands creationism, and a strict hermeneutic leads to young earth creationism. These things also lead to complementarianism, male only clergy, condemning homosexuality, so on. "God said it, I believe it, that settles it".

>>846657

I can appreciate that degree of fidelity to principles.

Honestly, what's attracting me to Christianity isn't so much its metaphysical, historical, or scientific commitments (things such as whether there is a supreme being named YHWH, if the resurrection actually took place, or how old the Earth is), but it's role in our culture as a system of meaning and value. I'm really interested in it's potential as a bulwark of some of the things about modernity that I find troubling. A lot of this comes out of my reading of the late Martin Heidegger: particularly The Origin of the Work of Art, The Thing, and Building, Dwelling, Thinking.

I honestly don't really care if any of it is true. I guess I'm a bit of a "post-modern traditionalist" in how I'm approaching this.

>>846660

That's a very good reason to begin to study Christianity, as long as you keep in mind that Christianity does consist of these various truth claims about history and metaphysics. I think Doug Wilson is an author you might enjoy reading, or listening to

>>846661

>Doug Wilson

Any books or articles to start with?

>>846662

Browse the q and a playlist for things that interest you

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaUso8l3U_ddO80xZcFNl1Buwl-KcAJ1c

>>846664

Gracias

>>846667

I would recommend you search for a good, Bible-believing independent church in whatever area you end up in. If you're moving, consider it an opportunity to drop in on a location and see what it's like before you leave.

I always recommend this search tool which is very useful if you want to find a place to go on Sunday in an unfamiliar or new area.

http://militarygetsaved.tripod.com/canada.html

Usually nowadays you can find some kind of internet resource for each listing you might find on here. I went ahead and looked up churches of the kind you might be interested in visiting in in the province of BC. In the image attached are all the KJB-using independent baptist churches placed on a map from the site listing above. You can find the info by searching (ctrl-f) " BC " with spaces on either side to find British Columbia addresses. In the case of U.S. States, we have it a little easier because each state has its own page, so apologies about that.

I also went ahead and found a recent sermon at one of the churches in Vancouver, I watched it through and looked pretty good to me, although the audio was a little bit clipped in a few places here it recovered later. I knew to look for this because my own church does a similar thing where we post all our sermons online as well so I thought you might enjoy checking it out in you have never been to one before. Enjoy and stay safe.

>>846628

>I'm scared that in twenty-five years, mainstream Christianity won't be equipped to denigrate extramarital sex or homosexuality anymore.

It's already at that state.

>>846652

>Honestly, I'm strongly considering this, since Catholics do accept evolution as factual.

This is just the ideology of the British Empire. If they can accept this, they will accept everything else eventually.

Don't stress about mass apostasy, it is unfruitful and ultimately vanity. God does not need us, it is us who need God.

>>846672

I'm scared that one day it'll be as normal as tap water in more liberal churches to see young women making out with their girlfriends at church youth groups. That homoerotic experimentation amongst young women will just become an accepted norm in Congregations, that chastity and modesty will be denigrated as old-fashioned, that churches will become, just like the rest of the world, nothing but safe spaces in which young women are not held to any standards of virtue or decency what-so-ever. That instead, the Church will become reconfigured, just as secular culture has, around the idea that society exists for the sake of allowing women to seek out consequence free pleasure and attention and to never be held accountable. That the entire social ethos of the congregation will come to revolve around women's feeling and desire to feel safe, cared for, and gratified at all moments of the day. That contemporary women's feelings, rather than scripture will become the foundation on which Christianity is based.

I'm sure it has already begun to happen, but once the congregation stops using masculine pronouns to refer to YHWH, it's winnie the pooh game over.

Ethnically, I'm a total mix, but Ukranian more than anything else. I'm seriously considering finding a Ukranian Orthodox Church. I know Eastern Orthodoxy is basically a zoomer meme, but I feel really drawn to the fact that I would be able to find a connection to my heritage in something like that.

>>846703

>>846703

>it's winnie the pooh game over.

My apologies for trying to swear on here. That word filter is absolutely hilarious.

>>846703

We already have 90% of what you described, it's largely why I don't go to church anymore and just try to do Bible studies by myself.

>That the entire social ethos of the congregation will come to revolve around women's feeling and desire to feel safe, cared for, and gratified at all moments of the day. That contemporary women's feelings, rather than scripture will become the foundation on which Christianity is based.

This already is true. There are large swathes of Christian men who waited forever for marriage and they can't find any virgin woman to marry and never will. Many of them will likely kill themselves and/or just languish in a depressive state until death, churches will never address this or try to ever solve it because they don't care. Trying to solve this problem would require criticism of women's behavior and actual efforts to correct it, not even the church will do that. It is treated as worse than blasphemy against God Himself. Reminds me of the Laodiceans in Revelation 3:15-16.

>>846711

That's awful. I really hoped that in some strains of contemporary Christianity there would be something strong enough to act as a bulwark against the direction the world is and has been going for a long time.

I have actually talked to a few Chrisitan women recently, and I guess I've experienced what you describe albeit to a lesser degree. They all, without fail selectively interpret Paul's statements regarding gender relations within Christianity as being historically contingent and no longer relevant to Christianity today. They all have let the ways of the world change Christian doctrine rather than vice versa.

Frankly it seems like on cultural issues, Chrisitans and conservatives are really nothing more than heel-draggers. When our culture shifts, they complain, do nothing, then, once it becomes the status quo, begrudgingly accept it. And then their kids wholesale accept it and affirm it.

I'm not an unreasonable man though, I can accept that humans err, but out of their mistakes they should be striving to be better. Their cultural and spiritual community should, instead of just telling them that their feelings and choices are always valid, denigrate those choices and discourage them while also showing them that there is a better lifestyle out there.

Personally, virginity is not an immutable requirement; though, all else being equal, it is preferred. To me, it's more important, going forward, what values a woman wants to live by an promote within her family and community. I'm more interested in shifting our culture. Short of that, I at least want to find a community in our culture that has the capacity to guard individuals and families from the cultural impact of the sexual revolution.

The sexual revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

>>846712

That's because of the synagogue of satan and the fact they promote sodomy. I wouldn't spend much time dwelling on that stuff. I would worry about straightening out my life and being right with God in the sight of God.

Thank god paul forbade women from speaking in church or having authority. Imagine having to listen to female stupidities all day.

>>846756

Yes it's tragic that christians have to present fake news and lies as facts for the sake of scaremongering.

>>846764

Yes I called you a liar since it's been debunked by the swedish church itself.

>>846765

Do you have a cite? That would have been nice to have since you would be correcting my error.

>>846767

https://www.thelocal.se/20171124/no-the-swedish-church-has-not-banned-the-male-pronoun-god

https://www.svenskakyrkan.se/ga-till-kallan/ordet-hen-har-inte-ersatt-han

>>846772

Thanks for the clarification.

From the first source on the use of pronouns

'' Some of the updated language includes three alternatives for the words to use at the start of worship services, including one which is gender-neutral: "In the name of the Father and Son, and the Holy Spirit," "In the name of God, the Father and Son, and the Holy Spirit", and "In the name of the triune God".

The Church Assembly also agreed to use the female grammatical gender for the Holy Spirit, as it the case in Hebrew as well as in the 2000 Swedish Bible translation ('den heliga anden' as opposed to 'den helige ande').

"Everyone who wants to call God 'Lord' can remain calm. It is still there in many places in the new handbook. We have replaced 'he' with 'God' in one place, that's all," Pedersen Videke told The Local.''

It appears to be half true, and not completely overstated.

The second link is a flat denial with no additional information.

>>846789

It must be convenient being able to tell as many lies as you want, the only consequence of being caught is that it was "a half truth". The statement was false end-of. Why didn't you admit to being a half-liar? Even if that would still be sugarcoating it.

>The second link is a flat denial with no additional information.

The second link is the official website of the church of sweden you genius. And no additional information? The website literally uses masculine pronouns and the word lord. Your post was lies, all of it. Not that you'll admit it, since you evidently think it's permissible to lie as long as it's part of your belief system.

>>846789

This is kind of a milder change than even the 2012 NIV tbh

>>846793

God save us all from my lies and quoting the sources you offered.

There is a special place in hell for folks like me that repeat what they believe is to be true, are informed of their lies and slander, ask for a cite, and find it is not all that untrue, but an "option".

>The second link is the official website of the church of sweden you genius

No, I'm just a near genius, I have to confess. But Mensa did offer me membership due to my GRE physics scores some 20 years ago. I'm not a genius.

Yes, I saw that it was the Church of Sweden website. I went where you pointed to. Perhaps you can point to where it proves I am a fool and a liar? That would be nice, I don't like repeating things that are not true.

>>846802

You are beyond shameless. 10 posts and hours later, several sources, including the official church itself, and you still refuse to admit your lies. Your pathetic attempt at "plausible deniability" doesn't even apply when you keep defending the false statements to begin with(even though a reasonable person would verify attacks before spreading them, especially when verification is so easy).

I've pointed it out already. You claimed they removed the pronouns "he" and the title "lord". Completely false. The rest of your claims were equally false and denied by the same official sources.

I'm not going to waste any more time trying to convince a religiously self-justified liar. The actual facts have been posted at least.

>>846806

>You are beyond shameless.

Because if I make the mistake and disagree with you and feel no shame, it is true.

>10 posts and hours later, several sources,

Two is not several sources. It a couple of sources.

> including the official church itself,

Again, all that was pointed to was a flat denial of what was in the article, while the prior source at thelocal.se explained that removing the gendered pronounces was optional.

>and you still refuse to admit your lies.

I didn't lie. I saw an article and I thought it was true. You provided a source and I see that it is only mostly true.

Some errors are lies. A lie is an intentional error, a deception. Like calling someone a liar who did not lie.

Do you really think that by bearing false witness against me that I'd be convinced on your word alone?

>>846816

You're still lying about what was in the websites. Stop calling god he or lord was never optional. You claimed they had been removed, they weren't. This is not an unintentional error.

>A lie is an intentional error, a deception

Like the news articles that you intentionally shared without verifying the veracity of, intentionally advocate as fact, and still intentionally defend, even when pointed out, with proof, were false, as even the church itself, called them fake news and incorrect claims. You are a deliberate liar and a deceiver.

Your only "defense" is that it's okay as long as someone else said the lie first. This is why christians believe the stupidest s— and are so easily manipulated. You believe verifying and checking up sources are discouraged. There's nothing wrong with advocating unverified claims as fact. Every lie can safely be concocted and believed as long as you want to believe it. You should never admit something was false, just continue lying and feeling no shame.

>>846816

bro stop

>>846839

>You're still lying about what was in the websites.

I quoted what was in the first website to show that the article was inaccurate, but had some merit.

Here it is again…

From the first source on the use of pronouns

Some of the updated language includes three alternatives for the words to use at the start of worship services, including one which is gender-neutral: "In the name of the Father and Son, and the Holy Spirit," "In the name of God, the Father and Son, and the Holy Spirit", and "In the name of the triune God".

Thus, the while the headline suggest that it is changed in all cases, it is an option to emasculate God the Father Almighty.

Perhaps more insults and hate at me will change my mind and make you right.

>Like the news articles that you intentionally shared without verifying the veracity of

People read the story. They repeat the story. No sin in that. If someone challanges it, you ask for a cite. You may get the cite and then understand more clearly. The Church of Sweden did make it an option to use language to emasculate God. Your own cite supports this. Your second cite makes no argument and just denies it. If you have a better source, cite it.

>>846840

He thinks it is important, why would I deny the truth to humor someone who bears false witness against me and false witness against the Church of Sweden? You want me to support his sin?

>>846794

>2012 NIV

Why? What did they change?

I don't think you should change the Bible to fit modern sensibilities. If the last 1980 or so years of Christianity offends you, you should look to change what offends you and not to change Christianity.

Or does Almighty and All Knowing God, creator of heaven and earth, Change his mind when He sees he's wrong?

I don't see one passage in the Bible where Christ advocates sexual equality or women's liberation.

>>846849

>People read the story.

The ”story" is a major accusation. It’s not like reading the weather and hearing someone say it’s X degrees in Berlin. It’s quite an outrageous claim, one that definitely entails blasphemy, if not apostasy. An accusation leveled against your own fellow christians at that. Yet, you chose to believe it instantly. No questions asked. You did not seek out a citation or proof or a source. Not even co-religionists are afforded benefit of the doubt apparently. I and everyone else can safely conclude that most of what you believe is most likely bulls—. I don’t even want to know what you believe about non-christians!

>no sin in that

Thanks for educating me. There is no sin in making false accusations. There is no religious reason why you should care about the veracity of your beliefs. Just believe whatever you want, no matter how outrageous. The christian religion does not put emphasis on truth or responsibility. The possibility that most of your beliefs are false is not grounds for concern.

>but had some merit.

Words not used by the swedish church. Instead, they called it fake news. You have yet to condemn it, choosing instead only to defend the slanderous accusations. But you quickly got offended at my calling you a liar? So someone accusing your person of being a liar, is more offensive and outrageous, than someone accusing millions of swedish christians of blasphemy/apostasy? You are arrogant, extremely so.

>false witness against the Church of Sweden?

Just when one thinks you can not sink any lower. Now you’re actually pretending to care about the honor of the swedish church?! You who so far have done nothing by slander them?! Disgusting.

>If someone challanges it, you ask for a cite.

firstly, you should’ve asked for a citations before considering it and propagating it as fact. Secondly, you still deny it anyway. So most likely it was a deliberate lie from the start, and not simply extreme neglect on your part.

You keep asking why the second link, i.e.the church itself, flat out denied it. The reason is simple: because it was a flat-out lie.

>>846628

I'm sick and tired of Christians dealing/complaining about the symptoms instead of addressing the soul of the problem-hedonism. Seriously, if hedonism was culturally rejected, would we have this much abortion, promiscuity, gluttony, sloth, etc?

>>846628

>Which denominations don't permit women to occupy leadership positions?

Traditional Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Confessional Lutheranism, and half of Continuing Anglicans. Not sure about the other Protestant denominations.

>>847227

Continuing Anglicans are a very niche group, its surprising that you're aware of their view and not that of the majority of protestants which are against women clergy

>>846907

By hedonism do you mean gluttony? Happiness is actually very good for you and the reason the White race is so productive is probably connected to fact melanin is inversely correlated to happiness according to scientific studies. Making avoiding pleasure a virtue might actually worsen the tigger problem severely. Gluttony is definitely a sin though and has been ever since the beginning.

>>847229

I'm interested in attending a denomination with traditional liturgy and that practices religious/cultural traditionalism. So I don't know much about other Protestant denominations. Could you teach me about them?

>>846628

>Has never been happier

>NEVER BEEN HAPPIER

That is a nope from me chief, since you have statistics of many people going depressed.

>>846711

>Many of them will likely kill themselves and/or just languish in a depressive state until death

That is where you are wrong buddy even if I can't find a virgin girlfrined either it be from hispano america or here I am not going to kill my self, for all we need is God.

>>846628

>Which denominations don't permit women to occupy leadership positions? I'm in Canada if that helps. I'm scared that in twenty-five years, mainstream Christianity won't be equipped to denigrate extramarital sex or homosexuality anymore.Once you give women power they they turn everything into a giant safe space for themselves.

Methodists have granted women roles for centuries. And before that, although they didn't hold high office, Catholics and Orthodox are replete with thousands of female Orthodox saints who were held up as leaders in some way.

You didn't see the degeneration of culture that you're mentioning until the 20th century. There's a lot more to this than anything to do with churches. It'd be a mistake to ignore this and just focus on that.

Fun Fact: there are no ordained women in the Church founded by Jesus Our Lord.

>>847547

Depends on what you mean by ordained or by "Church". If Israel is part of the Church, you had full blown Judges who presided over the entire people (Deborah).

You also have God ordaining Mary as the body and temple by which he would save the entire earth itself. Then once again, he chose another Mary to appear to first when he rose from the dead, and told her to tell the good news to the rest of his followers. This is why the oldest traditions of Mary Magdalene call her the "Apostle to the Apostles".

>>846628

disgusting whore, undeserving even of negative attention

>>847550

True. Also true that this woman tempts me and I'm sad that she has fallen.

Makes me want to buy a square mile of the Nevada desert, build a mud hut, and wait for my end.

>>846628

Catholicism

>>847533

>Methodists have granted women roles for centuries.

And Methodism is 99% s— along with the other Mainline Protestant denominations that ordain women and will be gone in a few generations because no one attends them.

>And before that, although they didn't hold high office, Catholics and Orthodox are replete with thousands of female Orthodox saints

Key phrase: "THEY DIDN'T HOLD HIGH OFFICE". In fact they didn't really hold any office in the clergy. You're muddying the waters here.

>You didn't see the degeneration of culture that you're mentioning until the 20th century. There's a lot more to this than anything to do with churches. It'd be a mistake to ignore this and just focus on that.

The best churches tend to be the ones who don't ordain women. The second a church ordains women it's on a countdown to subversion.

And the 20th Century was the century women began to be treated as men and society became more female dominated (90% of all purchases are now made by women). Look what happened. There were certainly other forces at work, but women being hoisted into power made those problems way worse. God never meant them to lead over men.

Evangelical Protestantism is just self- help pop-psychology, motivational speeches, and crass emotionalist entertainment with a vestigial Christian veneer. They have completely embraced modernity. It's entirely unsurprising that it leads to things like this.

>>847869

This isn't an evangelical

Why are you so obsessed? Its every thread with you

>>847871

If you had read the article before posting in a thread about it, you would have learned that she was/is evangelical. As for your irrelevant and stupid question, I recommend opening a dictionary before opening your mouth - obsession isn't people rebuking you for error.

>>847872

You are not mature

Her childhood home was probably evangelical. She was a woman "pastor" at some church before quitting and selling nude pics. This was assuredly not an evangelical church.

Did you find the church or denomination?

>>847874

"Woodland Hills Church — an evangelist megachurch in St. Paul, Minnesota"

>>847877

That's pretty dubious since the source you found doesn't know the difference between "evangelical" and "evangelist"

Woodland hills is the church of Greg Boyd who was voted out of the evangelical theological society over the issue of open theism

Was she really a member there even? What article did you find? If so how does her apostasy reflect on that church or evangelicalism?

Where was she a "pastor"?

>>847878

https://nypost.com/2020/09/23/this-bisexual-pastor-turned-stripper-has-never-been-happier/

Theological disputes between heretics are irrelevant. Her apostasy doesn't negatively reflect on evangelicalism, but rather on the modernist foundations of Protestantism itself. Rejecting Apostolic Tradition and substituting 16th century scholars' egos for Christ, the Apostles, and Holy Fathers is the direct precursor to all of the rot, degeneracy, and substitutive pseudo-religion that our society is replete with.

>>847879

Ok. Setting all those presuppositions aside, not at all what you said at first. Is that right?

>>847882

Wrong.

>>847928

> The Pope is acting like a prot!! >Therefore protestantism is correct!

This is very Protestant reasoning.

>>847961

In what way is pro-homosexuality "acting like a prot"? Which one of the Protestant reformers affirmed homosexuality? Which Protestant church identified itself as LGBT affirming prior to the 20th century? Where in your opinion does the holy bible affirm the practice of homosexuality?

>>847549

Deborah was "ordained" as a punishment lol

Back when I went to a liberal church, they had these T shirts with "great Biblical women" listed on them, and I wanted to laugh every time I saw Deborah on there, these people care more about respecting wamen then verifying that they were actually positive characters