/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>816292

Jesus was sent as a sacrifice to atone for our sins. No it isn't fair that was the point. The justice and mercy is that Jesus conquered death itself turning the injustice of his death into the justice of salvation for many. Yes Jesus suffered and died but now sits at the right hand of God the Father.

The Injustice is his Death.

The Justice is his Resurrection.

>>816294

>The justice and mercy is that Jesus conquered death

Is that justice too or is it just mercy? The two are in opposition. Perfect justice has no need for mercy, while mercy alone has no need for justice.

>The Injustice is his Death.

>The Justice is his Resurrection.

I respectfully disagreed. Justice is letting the entire world be sent to Hell.

The Orthodox answer to this paradox is that it’s a divine mystery. This is the honest answer.

>>816294

Very good, thanks.

>>816300

>The Orthodox answer to this paradox is that it’s a divine mystery.

That's the Orthodox answer for everything because they know they can't make a hard decision without Rome and the other patriarchs agreeing.

>>816303

Fair enough.

>>816292

>How is what Christ went through fair, on any level?

It isn't, but that's precisely why it's good. God throws justice out the window in favor of mercy literally every single time we sin but aren't immediately sent to Hell for it.

>If mercy over rides justice, then does Yahweh cease to be a God of law and order?

Certainly not. God is actively executing trillions of His laws right now just so that the physical universe and everything in it can exist as it does. If God stopped being a God of law and order, you'd notice. Or rather, you wouldn't, because you'd disintegrate into subatomic particles which would then cease to exist.

>Exists in Trinity, rather than Unity

Triunity, neither Trinity nor Unity alone. Much like Christ is dyophistic, neither monophystic nor Nestorian. It's about nuance.

>How is what Christ went through fair?

It wasn't fair. Fair here meaning weighted against each as they did.

>How could an injustice like the crucifixion ever be considered a good thing?

The suffering of Christ wasn't fair, but it is absolutely just. God is not described as being "fair", but as being "merciful" "loving" and "just". Justice here is to bring balance absolutely. To try and seperate the mercy and love from the justice is to cease making it just. The Law is Merciful, therefore in the execution of the Law lol it must fundamentally be Merciful, allowing every opportunity to come back. This is true Justice.

>>816300

that's not a fair description of orthodoxy at all. First and foremost, most orthodoxy theology is about Christ victory over death and how he gave himself over to hades to destroy it. you can say the justice of God is a mystery, you can say God has mercy that works mysteriously. but we know he has both. also if you are going to quote socrates, then you should know jesus is the archetypical just man in an unjust world, so just that even when the world killed him he conquered death. how could he be so just? because he is divine incarnate he is logos he is just because he is the order of creation. as david said in psalm 50 only you are just, so that when you are judge you prevail. the world, being unjust, judged jesus, the son of god, worthy of death, but he prevailed because is the only just one. the goal of the orthodox is through practice, worship, and humility, we can become like Jesus and truly follow his path so that we can one day share in Jesus' resurrection as he will judge us worthy to prevail over death just like himself.

>>816292

>How could an injustice like the crucifixion ever be considered a good thing, a priori?

Think about it like this: is jumping in front of a bullet for someone else evil because it's unfair to yourself to take on the harm that was going to be somebody else's? Or is it a good thing on your part because you've sacrificed your well-being so that somebody else could live?

>>816292

Here we go again, reinventing the wheel for the umpteenth time. The reason Christians don't popularly ask these questions is because either their faith has degenerated to a moralizing deism or they put their faith in the hierarchy of the Church and rightly trust that these questions were answered millennia ago and we need only to be on the same page regarding the Church's teachings.

>>816292

Who are these Christians you're talking about and why are you ranting about them here?

>>815576

>>816368

What was being said there?

>>816370

>Here we go again, reinventing the wheel for the umpteenth time

Except the whole point of this thread is that I never see the wheel being invented? I agree with the rest of your post. I have nothing in common with people who aren’t bothered by things in their faith that they don’t make sense to them. I myself a man of faith, but the things I have faith in must make sense.

>>816371

What is your point? I know you have one but I don’t know what it is. Are you saying this board or Christianity in general is degenerate to the point of not having any real followers of Christ?

>>816386

Doesn’t address the issues raised in OP, namely how such a thing is fair or just, or the natural tension between justice and mercy.

>>816408

>namely how such a thing is fair or just,

did you watch the vid?

>>816410

First sentence: “Penal substitution in a theological context is the doctrine that God inflicted upon Christ the suffering which we deserved as the punishment for our sins, as a result of which we no longer deserve punishment.”

>wastes the next 20 minutes defending such an asinine and heretical statement

Protestants man, I swear…

>>816413

How is it heretical? In what sense are you using that word and as a reason to discount that atonement theory? And why call it time wasted? You wanted something explaining how the atonement was just (and fair), you got an explanation of the former in that vid.

>>816414

Protestant theology is heretical. No one doesn’t deserve Hell other than Christ.

>>816405

>What was being said there?

It got deleted for not being important, I can agree with the mods this time.

>Are you saying this board or Christianity in general is degenerate to the point of not having any real followers of Christ?

Big jump of logic here.

But look, what is important is:

Its known that some Christians don't really care about being the imitation of Christ. Others don't need to understand things in order to have faith(not your case).

You must not take the former into consideration, and the latter you must not complain about, even if you don't understand them. They're merely not like you.

I say, this because there are two kinds of Christians would be art of your complaint on this thread's OP.

>The one question no Christian seems to want to try to answer:

And those two are them.

>>816416

>there are two kinds of Christians would be art of your complaint on this thread's OP.

Who would be part*

>>816416

The uncomfortable reality pervading all of Christianity is that justification doesn’t inherently exist, it’s all a mercy. “Justification” is just a convenient way of thinking about the mechanics of a salvation which is undeserved.

>>816421

To add to that point, if John the Baptist knew that his having the privilege of untying Christ’s dusty sandals would be unjustified, why do Christians think their inheritance of Christ’s Kingdom is justified?

>>816473

Hence why truly stylish people don’t expend any effort trying to be saved, and may not even ever open a Bible or walk into a church, because they instinctually know that any effortful attempt to save themselves means that they have fallen from grace like a Mormon.

You know I’m right.

It probably has something to do with love

>>816492

Except the persons of the Trinity don’t need anyone else to love except for the two other persons. All humans have ever given God is pain. How many times does God thank humans in scripture?

>>816495

I know it seems like a cop out, but it's simply the only explanation. God chose to create knowing the pain it would cause, the rejection and evil that would manifest from giving life to free beings, because he loved us before time itself. It was all for those who would be with him in eternity, those who would glorify him would be glorified with him, they will join the family and come home.

>>816497

The only explanation for God creating a world in which His Son would incarnate and be tortured, or the only explanation for how any imperfect being reaches Heaven?

One opinion is that infinite evil is entailed by love, because love isn’t love unless it’s unconditionally forgiving, which means no condition on the amount of evil it is able to forgive (hence why Christ experienced not just the nails of the cross but the FULL punishment of Hell and the demons).

…But this is heretical because it implies that God is not sovereign and relies on Satan for His very existence. So I don’t believe it.

But what about the Parable of the Wheat and Tares? The Lord says YHWH is a farmer. Maybe He is using parallel quantum computing to extract the good from every conceivable universe in the multiverse in order to create the perfect thing.

>>816473

the righteous are remembered in song, but the world of the Lord is sufficient for thee, o forerunner

remember Jesus called John the baptist the greatest man who ever lived.

https://soundcloud.com/thomisticinstitute/fr-romanus-cessario-op-why-did-jesus-die-a-short-introduction-to-catholic-beliefs-april-2017

>>816513

That is… a good poem.

>>816514

Tl;dl: sin?

>>816513

Did you write that?

>>816421

>>816473

Justice is a concept exclusive to God and not to men. Mercy is Just. It's not fair, and we all deserve damnation. Fairness /= Justice.

Furthermore, you're misquoting John the Baptist. He never said he wasn't "Justified" ("dikaioo"), but the he wasn't "Worthy" ("axios"). None of us are worthy or deserving of Christs Love, that is fair. But we are still made worthy in the eyes of God through His Mercy, that is just.

>>816522

What is the basis for fairness not being just and for unfairness not being unjust?

>>816523

I should have linked my earlier post >>816307

"Eye for an Eye" is fair, but the Law is Just.

>>816527

Have you not read the Exodus 21:24 section of the Law?

>>816529

The Law was fulfilled in Christ.

Humans messed up, it is fair for us to suffer the consequences. God did not desire this. So He sent his only begotten Son to suffer all out sins for us. From the perspective of God, who is the Judge and the initial Victim (man broke the law of God first), it is really not fair for Him to also suffer death, much less suffer death for our sake. Yet, demonstrating mercy and love for mankind, He did. This is the miracle of Christ. He became man to make the law not just fair, but Just. Is this making sense?

>>816532

If you teach people that Exodus has been annulled then Jesus says that in the Kingdom of Heaven you will be called least.

>>816532

>Is this making sense?

Honestly? Just sounds like you’re playing word games to tell a nice story. I can’t think of any meaningful sense in which lawfulness is not the same as justice is not the same as fairness.

>>816535

I'm not saying it was annulled, but that it was fulfilled. This is the same proclamation made by the Orthodox Church, which you claim to be a part of. Furthermore, on the topic of "Eye for an Eye" Christ himself responded "turn the other cheek". It was not fair for God to suffer the consequences of Human Sin, yet He did it because it was just, and He did it by obeying the Law and not by overturning through Christ, as Christ is both fully Man and fully God.

>>816536

Alright well that seems to be the refrain but it doesn’t make sense. Maybe that’s why I’m Orthodox, because at least I acknowledge it. Acknowledging shortcomings in general is good, y’know?

>>816538

I'm not about to play false humility and hide from what I perceive to be the truth. I acknowledge I could be wrong, but I don't think I am and shirking away because it's uncomfortable to make assertions is a worse sin. God forgive me if I'm wrong, and I ask for yours as well if I am.

>>816539

>God forgive me if I'm wrong, and I ask for yours as well if I am

I need to be forgiven if you are wrong? Interesting logic.

>>816541

I'm asking you to forgive me if I'm wrong.

>>816546

What's crazy about asking for forgiveness if I'm wrong?

>>816547

Why do you seek anyone’s forgiveness but God’s?

>>816548

We are instructed to seek forgiveness from the one we have wronged. This is fundamental to the Church.

Matt 5:23-24, 6:14-15

Luke 6:37-38, 17:3-4

Colossians 3:13

Ephesians 4:32

James 5:16

>>816550

No, what I meant was, how have you wronged me?

>>816551

If it comes to pass that I was wrong about everything I ever said, I have mislead you grievously, or fallen into foolishness. That's a sin. Something that could cause you to stumble at the Judgement. This is if IF I'm wrong.

>>816552

Your sin is forgiven you.

>fairness

>my own concept of fairness in my probably less than 40 years on this earth compared to God's understanding of it

Lad.

>>816566

Nope, just going by Torah alone (as if that weren’t enough) it’s unjust.

>>816518

>>816519

that is the apolytikon of St John the Baptist (Forerunner), usually sung on the commemoration of his execution by the wicked herod antipas.

https://youtu.be/Rdo9nDP5Lu4

Read Plato's Gorgias, phone posting or I'd provide a link, in it he prophetically sees his own death/suffering for what is good, and shows with dialogue why it is better to suffer injustice than to inflict injustice.

Also, why would the average person deal with philosophical issues? The average person is not equipped to deal with these issues . Not to mention that any question that you have has probably already been answered by the Church Fathers.

But to take a stab in the dark at some of your questions,

1) The Crucifixion was not fair on any level, that's the point, God isn't supposed to suffer but he suffers our sinful existence every day.

2) The Crucifixion itself was an evil act, but for Christ to voluntarily accept the will of the Father to show us mortals how we are to act in the face of injustice.

3)Injustice is never good. God can turn injustice for good. Who's more likely to be a kind person, one who has everything handed to them and catered to, or one who has been dealt with a lot of loss and suffering?

4)Mercy does not override justice there is no mercy for the unrepentant.

Injustice happens because it is a necessary condition for humans to be free. You don't want a world where you're forced to act perfectly reasonable 100% of the time, and God wants you to act perfectly reasonable but will not force you. He forgives those that try, and condemns those that justify their irrationality.

>>816292

It was a hotfix to update the server. Seems irrational to the entities inside the simulation, but makes sense to the programmer, whose Logos was needed to fix some issues.

Only half joking, consider that God's view may not be completely comprehensible to us & any explanations we create are partial & inaccurate. Good old faith again.