/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>782068

Iran, India, China, and Japan would be majority Christian if islam never existed.

>>782382

AFAIK, islam didn't impede the spread of christianity in Japan, what really did damage was the bombings and of course, the prohibition act. Don't know about other countries though.

I don’t understand Catholics. They’ll cry and cry about all these Catholic martyrs, but once they have power, they want to kill anyone who disagrees with their doctrine (observe certain posters on this board).

>>782489

Individuals =/= Catholics. I don't want power, and if I were forced to have it by God I wouldn't kill anyone who disagreed with me, in fact I'd protect them from those who would kill them, and treat them like the fellow humans suffering under sin that they are.

>>782490

So, if you lived in say, the Middle Ages, would you protect Albigensians from persecution in the face of the Catholic Church?

>>782497

My guess is he also sympathizes with the VIKANGZ when they kidnapped women and sold them to Muslims.

>>782477

it was of the interest of the protestant dutch to have the nips turn against catholicism

just like the american protestants acted in favor of the masonry banning catholicism in mexico

>>782542

Yes, this also impeded the spread. But it was the japanese that ultimately prohibited it

>>782497

As much as I could, I would, despite disagreeing strongly with their heresies and murderous ways. But that's just me, and I don't represent the Church anymore than those who would take power and persecute and do violence and kill.

>>782574

Uhh… who even represents the church then?

>>782576

imma give you a hint.

the representatives of the church will not be found on 8chan

>>782477

Christian missionaries would have arrived in Japan centuries earlier than when they did, had it not been for islam, islamic conquests destroyed the silk road that carried goods and ideas between West and East.

>>782489

1. catholics would deliver up heretics to the state, the state itself would usually have the death penalty, because heretics usually used their innovations to rebel.

2. the actual theological punishment is simple excommunication, there's no evidence that the Church has ever just began to strung up people She doesn't like

you would understand Catholics if you had read history more :)

>>782497

>>782497

the albigensians were political insurrectionists, no idea where you get this idea that they were peaceful non-conformists

the Church did not declare the crusade until the Albigensians assassinated a papal legate, something you leave out.

>>782723

You would be the loser for simply thinking that this is all there is. Remember this.

>>783133

Golden age?

Shitty poverty ridden country sitting on tons of potential with both the Samurai class and the peasantry who won his bloody seat for him living like crap while the entire country is isolated to the point of not even TRADE coming in resulting in famines among others thing and most importantly an incredible technological stagnation.

If Meiji didn't kick his dumbass dynasty's ass back to the rice fields Japan would've become a Russian or American colony if anything.

Real golden age buddy and again, he left behind nothing that he accomplished on his own which is what I said, far and wide he's well known as the guy riding the backs of others' successes, most notably the successes as Nobunaga and Hideyoshi, for Christ's sake even in Japan, even during his own reign he was regarded as a wastrel who bootlicked and exploited his way to the top through insidious and opportunistic means.

One of the most famous Japanese poems about the Sengoku jidai is about how much of a good for nothing he was who's only merits are the result of stealing the success of others.

"織田がつき

Nobunaga made/prepared/worked on (the rice cake)

羽柴がこねし 天下餅

Hachiba (Hideyoshi) kneaded the world rice cake (world taken to mean Japan only)

座りしままに 食うは徳川

And the one that sat down and ate it was Tokugawa."

And that's the guy you're defending as having established a 'golden age'? Are you the Vietnamese funposter?

>>783177

>isolationism is bad

>technology is good, degeneracy is good

The christcuck speaks his mind.

Tokugawa ruled a 200 years of peace and prosperity for Japan, with the Edo period rivaling the Kamakura period in art, culture and economy. Meanwhile, which eastern country had a better technology than Japan at the time? NONE? Korea is caveman tier and China is in endless war. Only the West can contend with Japan.

The Meiji Restoration brought capitalist into the country and in fact bring Japan into further ruin by destroying its honor based culture, and now we have it, american-ruled Japan that can barely hang on because they refuse (((christian))) influence.

The Boshin war was a civil war and whoever wins nonetheless is going to modernize, the Emperor himself became a puppet to capitalists after the Boshin war.

>Sengoku jidai poem

Irrelevant.

What matters at the end of the day is whoever wins, and Tokugawa did, all others are sorelosers.

>>783184

For your argument, all the big asian countries (Vietnam included) were trying to westernize at the same time, but only Japan succeeded because of their ability and willing to learn (technology and industry) but without taking the bad parts (Christianity).

This still comes to bite them in the ass later on because of the zaibatsu who are not loyal to the Empire.

>and probably would be a British or Russian colony.

Just like America was a british colony? Or Hong Kong?

>>783066

>>783103

lol dickhead

polite sage because I'm an immature retard.

>>783182

>The Meiji Restoration brought capitalist into the country and in fact bring Japan into further ruin by destroying its honor based culture

The fact you think this prove you know nothing about Japanese history or culture, and are probably just a blind weeb or pagan sodomite.

The Meiji brought in western culture on their own terms because it was either do that or be forced into it by some colonial power. By doing this, Japan maintained its independence and grew to become an imperial power in its own right. Unlike China or most of South-east Asia… Including Vietnam, pal.

Honor based culture continued to be present all the way until the end of WW2, and even then it hasn't died out entirely as you assert. Americanization of Japan was the result of WW2, not of general westernization, and even then Japan maintains a close connection to it's culture.

>but without taking the bad parts (Christianity).

go to a Japanese wedding.

> they refuse christian influence.

So you're saying Christianity doesn't have a foothold in japan outside of christian ghettos like Nagasaki?.. So what the hell is your argument you friken gook?

>Just like America was a british colony?

Yeah, and America is now a nation of whites where the natives were either killed off or are treated like cattle… so not a good example bud.

>>783192

>The Meiji brought in western culture on their own terms because it was either do that or be forced into it by some colonial power.

So it's still being forced to adopt it, Meiji or the last Tokugawa cannot choose on the matter.

>By doing this, Japan maintained its independence and grew to become an imperial power in its own right. Unlike China or most of South-east Asia… Including Vietnam, pal.

And it still ends up biting them in the ass, because the western capitalism culture is cancerous.

>Honor based culture continued to be present all the way until the end of WW2, and even then it hasn't died out entirely as you assert.

It's still alive but no thanks to Christianity nor western culture.

>go to a Japanese wedding.

Yeah, thanks consumerist.

>So you're saying Christianity doesn't have a foothold in japan outside of christian ghettos like Nagasaki?.. So what the hell is your argument you friken gook?

They don't, any foothold is watched carefully by the shogunate or imperial power, any christian is a potential traitor.

>Yeah, and America is now a nation of whites where the natives were either killed off or are treated like cattle… so not a good example bud.

You mean like every country in the world, bud, all thanks to Christianity.

>>783193

I think they did come and they got killed.

Japan got forced to welcome christians because freemason secularized americans force them to, not out of any freewill. Meanwhile, medieval "christian" Europe has trouble keeping their little continent in tact.

>>783182

>What matters at the end of the day is whoever wins, and Tokugawa did, all others are sorelosers.

Okay let's roll with that, Emperor Meiji is the winner and Tokugawa's entire dynasty is a bunch of losers piggybacking on the successes of others.

But wait, Meiji's dynasty was also defeated, WW2 brought an end to his descendants (or the military's rule rather) rule in all but name, so, the Japanese Emperors are just losers, Japanese as a whole are losers, after all the Americans, the Russians and the Chinese won.

>isolationism is bad

>technology is good, degeneracy is good

You posted this from a PC you dumbass, why not live in the woods without running water and electricity if you despise technology so much?

There's a clear seperation point where it's good and when it's bad for anyone with half a brain but I guess that's too much for you eh,

I guess it's better to become the colony of a foreign power instead of modernizing and leaving behind isolation like Meiji did yes? Bugger off.

>The Boshin war was a civil war and whoever wins nonetheless is going to modernize

Bullshit, the entire point of the war was ultimately isolationism and technological stagnation Vs interventionism and innovation, the latter won and short term saved Japan.

>which eastern country had a better technology than Japan

Umm, Korea went through literally the same what you think Japan went through but more, it did have 200 years of peace & prosperity, the Joseon dynasty as a whole was a golden age for Korea and it definitely trumped Japan in terms of rulers, they repelled an invasion from your 'superior' Japan during this time exactly., they also didn't have a famine during all of this as opposed to Japan

China during this time was also ruled by the Ming dynasty and that trumps anything pre-Meiji Japan ever accomplished, the Ming dynasty is one of the greatest eras of peace, prosperity and advancement of humanity in all of history, you're kidding me right, Japan was a lowly nobody from both outsider and internal view in comparison to Ming China.

China only really went donwhill during the late-Qing dynasty which is not what we're discussing here.

There's also a case to be made for the Mughal Empire being far more successful than Tokugawa's Japan but I won't go into that for I'm not that well informed about them.

And this is just Asia, Christendom was miles ahead of the Tokugawa Shogunate to the point where it's not even a contest.

> american-ruled Japan that can barely hang on because they refuse (((christian))) influence

The US is a secular country since it's founding and the only influence it has on Japan is that, a secular one, China has a bigger Christian influence on modern Japan for crying out loud.

>Sengoku jidai poem

>Irrelevant.

So the real way the Japanese people saw the Tokugawa and it held true to the point that the poem has stuck with us to even today as the simple and efficient way to describe the entire era and it's 3 leaders doesn't matter but your own uninformed delusional troglodyte opinion does?

You speak a lot yet know nothing go home kid and come back when you know something about the topic you're talking about.

You spoke so much ignorance I would rather not even address your undoubtedly pathetic follow that has no basis in reality.

>>783184

I do, hopefully as you can tell and I agree, as I said Meiji essentially saved Japan in the short term.

>>783187

Japan succeeded mostly because the Emperor had no formal opposition to Westernization, they fought an entire war and the side that wanted to Westernize won luckily, otherwise Japan would've faced the same dissent and huge opposition that other Asian countries were faced with once they wanted to Westernize.

There's literally nothing more to it, other countries faced opposition when they tried to Westernize while Japan fought an actual war against the opposition that denied Westernization and so Meiji's ideas triumphed.

>>783198

>Okay let's roll with that, Emperor Meiji is the winner and Tokugawa's entire dynasty is a bunch of losers piggybacking on the successes of others.

And no denying that.

>But wait, Meiji's dynasty was also defeated, WW2 brought an end to his descendants (or the military's rule rather) rule in all but name, so, the Japanese Emperors are just losers, Japanese as a whole are losers, after all the Americans, the Russians and the Chinese won.

Following that logic, only the jews have won so far.

>You posted this from a PC you dumbass, why not live in the woods without running water and electricity if you despise technology so much?

Maybe I should.

>I guess it's better to become the colony of a foreign power instead of modernizing and leaving behind isolation like Meiji did yes? Bugger off.

Modernizing is cancerous, and the fact you christians worship show what fruits you saw.

>Bullshit, the entire point of the war was ultimately isolationism and technological stagnation Vs interventionism and innovation, the latter won and short term saved Japan.

Idiot detected, BOTH the Tokugawa and the Imperial clans have foreign backers and advisors, BOTH embrace foreign ideology and in fact the shogunate were willing to sede more land for the foreign power. The Boshin war was a case of internal power struggle heated up by outside force.

>it did have 200 years of peace & prosperity, the Joseon dynasty as a whole was a golden age for Korea and it definitely trumped Japan in terms of rulers

I don't see any technology, culture or even music of that era, they remained an occupied of China.

>they repelled an invasion from your 'superior' Japan during this time exactly.

You mean the Hideyoshi one? In that period, they were indeed occupied by Ming and were saved by the chinks.

>China during this time was also ruled by the Ming dynasty and that trumps anything pre-Meiji Japan ever accomplished, the Ming dynasty is one of the greatest eras of peace, prosperity and advancement of humanity in all of history

What? The Ming era is so bad it actually LOSES territory and got shallowed up by the Manchu, a much smaller kingdom due to corruption and infighting.

>Japan was a lowly nobody from both outsider and internal view in comparison to Ming China.

Yet never once they were occupied by any chink force.

>There's also a case to be made for the Mughal Empire being far more successful than Tokugawa's Japan but I won't go into that for I'm not that well informed about them.

Don't know what that is.

>And this is just Asia, Christendom was miles ahead of the Tokugawa Shogunate to the point where it's not even a contest.

Which "Christendom"? The secularized, Renaissance and Enlightened Christendom? That one? The one you supposedly hate?

>The US is a secular country since it's founding and the only influence it has on Japan is that, a secular one, China has a bigger Christian influence on modern Japan for crying out loud.

Yet it's also the force that forces Christianity on Japan on the threat of country attack if they dare repelling christian corruption.

>So the real way the Japanese people saw the Tokugawa

Hold it, one poem doesn't mean jackshit.

The majority of the people enjoy 200 years of peace ushered by the end of the sengoku jidai. Butthurt losers mad that someone doesn't make that untrue.

>it's 3 leaders doesn't matter

They don't since only Tokugawa won and maintained his rule. Winning power is easy, keeping it is hard.

>You speak a lot yet know nothing

I know more than you, christcuck.

>Japan succeeded mostly because the Emperor had no formal opposition to Westernization,

They succeeded because BOTH sides wanted to westernize, be it shogunate or imperial, unlike everyone else in Asia who is incredibly hesistant to it.

>and so Meiji's ideas triumphed.

Neither sides resisted westernization, retard.

>>783202

>Modernizing is cancerous, and the fact you christians worship show what fruits you saw.

Modernization is cancerous, and the fact you christians worship that shows what fruits you really sow*

>>783206

>Either adopt and maintain Independence and your own cultural underline, or get winnie the poohed like the rest of asian? Hmmst, what to do?

How about keeping everything while just adopting the technology? Hmm?

>Capitalism is a human invention, not a western one. The pursuit of self interest is a base instinct of all living organism, and that's why Christians reject it… and neither are commie cucks like you gooks are.

It's the very same christians who spread capitalism/consumerist culture into Japan.

>So you're saying you have no point other than mindless antagonism. Get a life dude.

How, this is what I said: It's still alive but no thanks to Christianity nor western culture.

>Lol, ok. whatever the winnie the pooh you mean. Japan has always been a peicemeal of religions, they have Shinto upbringings with Buddhist burial rites.

Buddhism, the less organization, lends itself to any eastern religion due to their common origin, buddhist monks do not deny shinto gods, while christians would.

>So you have even less of an argument… Gook, /pol/trad needs to go back ASAP.

I'm sorry, but what is not an argument? I just stated a historical fact, christians are the same as jews.

>I don't think Christians played a role in Asian adoption of communism, nor the overtaking of various colonies.

It does, communism is spread by christians to Asia.

>In fact, if you ever actually read history, we were kind of opposed to the treatment of natives.

So where were you when "christians" making colonies of the world?

>Initially Japan was fine with us, and the acceptance of christian communities took place before post war Americanization.

Bitch please, Japan killed and hunted down any big christian organization because they posed a direct danger to the government, being pretty much traitors in their own soil.

>you finally made an observation /christian/ generally agrees with… your end point is still retarded though.

How? It's these same baste freemason who force Christianity into Japan, and you worship them!

>again Pic related.

Ah, the winnie the pooher who lost Europe to the moors.

>>783208

>t. the guy who doesn't even know about something as significant as the Mughal Empire and again,

Oh yeah, street shitter, so winnie the pooh significant m8.

>It's like arguing history with a toddler, I could spend another hour refuting your points but I won't, and neither should anyone waste their time with you on this board.

Yeah, dude, go on, nobody gives a shit about poo.

>>783209

>How about keeping everything while just adopting the technology? Hmm?

Because that manner of dress is so Japanese…

>It's the very same christians who spread capitalism/consumerist culture into Japan.

In what manner other than your nonsensical revisionist history?

>It's still alive but no thanks to Christianity nor western culture.

BECAUSE YOU"RE ACKNOWLEDGING IT"S STILL THERE!

>Buddhism, the less organization, lends itself to any eastern religion due to their common origin

Buddhism is Indian, not east Asian… You really don't know WTF you're talking about do you?

>I just stated a historical fact, christians are the same as jews.

Read the Talmud, you commie cuck. After all, they gave communism to you.

>It does, communism is spread by christians to Asia.

Literally no. Look up the church's views on communism at any point in history you dense MFer.

>So where were you when "christians" making colonies of the world?

We were preaching the word of god and actively fighting the brutality. Many revolutionaries in South America were Christians dog.

>Bitch please, Japan killed and hunted down any big christian organization because they posed a direct danger to the government, being pretty much traitors in their own soil.

Nothing I said was wrong though… and your "point" is redundant drivel

>ow? It's these same baste freemason who force Christianity into Japan, and you worship them!

<freemason

<force Christianity

Wow, you REALLY have no idea what you're talking about. The Freemasons were declared heretics centuries before Japan was westernized.

>who lost Europe to the moors.

Charlemagne fought off the moors… Where did you learn any of your history? In your anti-western commie schools?

>>783219

As someone who is avid about Japanese culture, as well as Christianity and European history, it's just painful to see such stupidity…

But even I know I'm going to get nowhere with this guy deep down.

>>783221

I know it's sad.

I have a great passion for Japanese history too, private collection of 23 books written on the matter and have attended two courses on different periods but it's just not worth it to waste words on someone who has decided to plug their ears.

>>783226

>Oh, so what's good about technology is the winnie the pooh dress, wow

Why is western dress required to use industrial technology? I mean, Asian dress was looser so that might be a problem, but military uniforms were fine all things considered.

>As in real history, retard. All the foreign capitalists gone into Japan? All christians.

And this is known how? Also, correlation =/= causation, and if you knew church doctrine on greed you'd realize how stupid this is to say

>What? I don't understand your point, it's literally still there but the christians are Japan are literally buttmad about it.

No they aren't... where the winnie the pooh are you getting this from?

>And India is a part of Asia, last time I check

And it's entirely culturally and racially different from japan. You were just mocking Street shiters a second ago... now their fine because "Asia" India is a subcontinent for winnie the poohs sake.

>don't you mean to hear it, since it's an oral tradition?

No, I mean read it.: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/index.htm

>he church supports communism in WW2 when it allies against Hitler,

because being opposed to fascism that actively subverts and opposes Christianity makes you communist, even if actual communists hate you...and the sentiment is mutual. have you ever read any communist literature? they oppose any religion.

>not to mention the church doesn't control all of its flock.

I'm sorry it's hard to govern 1.2 billion people simultaneously s catered across the globe. A bit more than what Hitler had to govern.

>More like actively fighting brutally

Again no, and actually looking up church discussion over this matter would show you that, but apparently the commie schools they send you gooks to have done their job a bit too well.

>Literal heretics who worship a death goddess.

Ok, now you;re just making shit up.

>Which explains a huge chunk of Europe being occupied by the moors in his time?

Yeah, because the Holy roman empire hadn't expanded yet... but all attempted invasions from the Moors were fought off... Later it was expanded after they fell though..

>Any history book, really

See, I actually read historic documents, not just take it on faith that what the commie schools are telling me is true.

>Please, if you are avid about japanese culture, keep cancer like Christianity well away from it.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaah. Besides , it's not like they understand Christianity anyways. they act like we're magic or something, and the Westaboos aren't interested in it either.

>>783271

>Mossad = Jews

You had to really think hard on that one didn't you .

Also how come the KGB is dissolved but Orthodoxy is still around, I'm an Orthodox inquirer was I trained by the KGB too?

>I know that they are dressing up like moslem

Yeah dude, the tradition that existed hundreds of years before Muhammad was even born and basically has nothing to do with Arabic dresses is the exact same thing, revolutionary thinking there buddy.

>I'm into god worship, which is why I dislike demon worship like you so much.

I didn't ask for the semantics on how you justify worshipping demons I asked what brand are you into, you know what are the rules and framework you worship these demons in, Shinto, Hindu, Folk Chinese etc?

>>783277

This tigger is saying it's OK to rape women and kill babies because the Chinese were the invaders all along?

I mean... if we didn't know you were a delusional edgelord already this pretty much says it all.

>our ancestral gods

Who are those to you?

>>783286

>Guan Yu.

Are you Chinese, more specifically, Han?

>>783286

I haven't I'm merely an Orthodox inquirer for now.

>>783293

He's doing service how is he trying to 'act tough' lmao?

I haven't heard something this ridiculous from anyone before, I guess Christ does come through to unbelievers in some form but gee...

>ethnic chink Vietnamese

So you are the Vietnamese tard funposter who just had his thread deleted.

It's even more ridiculous now, you're "calling out" other people for worshipping something Middle Eastern and not their ancestor gods but you do the exact same thing.

You worship some Chinese guy who has nothing to do with you or your ancestors, or even your peoples' gods, imagine this much of a cuck lmao, the Chinese conquered, raped and ruled over your people for ages and YOU are worshipping one of their generals? That's honestly laughable.

Your people have their own faith in worshipping the thần or even Cao Đài, those are your "ancestor gods" not some Chinese general from two millenium ago who just happened to be a good enough warrior to have his own personaltiy cult.

What a joke man... you bring great shame to your ancestors, you're doing the equivelant of a German guy worshipping Saladin and you think you're in a position to criticize people for not respecting their ancestors.

I mean, it's funny and laughable but also very sad.

Well anyways I'll go live my life now, grow a spine dude, get educated too preferably.

What the hell happened in this thread?

>>783336

That retarded Vietnamese Larpagan again.

>>783307

>He's doing service how is he trying to 'act tough' lmao?

Look at his scared KGB face.

>You worship some Chinese guy who has nothing to do with you or your ancestors,

Actually, it's my religion of my forefathers and absolute have to do with my ancestors, nice try cuck.

>Your people have their own faith in worshipping the thần or even Cao Đài, those are your "ancestor gods" not some Chinese general from two millenium ago who just happened to be a good enough warrior to have his own personaltiy cult.

That's for the Kinh, I'm a Han.

>What a joke man… you bring great shame to your ancestors, you're doing the equivelant of a German guy worshipping Saladin

Makes no sense, meanwhile, you are worshiping a jew, eternal wanderer.

>>783308

>Cotton is in Europe too brah. You can claim silk, if you want, but you didn't.

But is that traditional european garb, I think not?

>I've never read a more stupid statement in my entire life.

Welp, see the christian atheist.

>But the Chinese didn't bring in foreigners… and why is such needless brutality required?

To teach them to never ever invade.

>So we literally can't even say we disagree? What are you on m8

Yeah, you literally can't, for you hold no power.

>Donation to the church isn't mandatory…

It is in MEDIEVAL EUROPE!

>As a proud polish-american Catholic, screw you gook. Webm related.

Simply call yourself a christian and get rid of yourself.

>I cant even at this point… calling you retarded is an insult to the retarded.

Venerating a winnie the pooh corpse, and calling me retarded.

>So you've been making a false equivalence since the beginning?

It's not me who pretend muh medieval Christendom was strong.

>Catholicism has been dominant is western Europe since Late Antiquity… Charlemagne being a good example of how it spread.

You mean the only example, the fact "Catholicism" exists at all because Charlesmagne doesn't want the east to have power over him.

>Jews and Judaism are also from Asia… By saying Buddhism being Indian is fine because Asia, you've invalidated everything about your argument.

Jews have no country or continent, they are ultimate wanderers and everything related to them ought to be destroyed.

>>783322

>sacred experience

Is that the time when you decide to kill people who don't worship the jew god?

>>783335

>morality

Aksually, pagan invent morality.

>>783391

As said, I like Zeus but my religion has always been Guan Yu.

Just saying Zeus/Odin is the natural chief goddess of european, who are the majority of christcuck here.

>>783574

Then I will preach to ones who care.

HEIL ODINN!

>Just saying Zeus/Odin is the natural chief goddess of european

Never change, Charlie.

>>783541

guan yu can NEVER be your religion. it's the object of your cult and nothing more. There is no tradition nor rites associated with him. You don't know what a religion is. Read Mircea Eliade to begin with.

>>783613

Offering prayer to Guan Yu is worshiping.

A war god needs not pointless whimpering, we aren't a bunch of kikes.

>>783602

Typo.