/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I wouldn't listen too much to Jay Dyer on this issue, he creates a lot of dialectics and strawmen

>>777616

>Do you need to have a Thomistic view of God to be Catholic?

I mean, there are multiple schools of thought in the church that share the same foundation but go in different directions. That's kind of why a Thomistic view isn't synonymous with the whole of Catholicism.

>>777616

ADS doesn't exist, and no, you don't need to be a thomist, and no, you shouldn't ever listen to Jay dyer.

>>777618

Yes, he seems to use a lot of browbeating. But, I think the points he makes (the 5 Proofs can only prove a Demiurge, not the personal God (Logos) of Christianity, and that fallen man should not try to “reason” up to God) are fair.

>>777627

Thanks for your response. I was leaning on Catholicism because I have a hard time believing the essence energy distinction, do you have any Catholic apologetics against the essence energy distinction?

>>777635

Yeah, Thomism is only really 100% embraced by the Dominicans (for obvious reasons). The Summa is obviously still considered a cornerstone of the church, and St. Thomas is still a Doctor of the Church rightfully so but there are still multiple approaches to theology. I actually have a friend who's actually a member of a Thomistic organization (forget the name of it) while I'm a Benedictine Oblate, and we differ a lot and admittedly clash on our religious philosophy.

>>777635

That opinion on the five proofs is atheist-tier, and a personal God can be easily proven by identifying what that attribute/attributes are.

How is Jay Dyer a meme?

>>777657

most convenient argument to make. Dyer has his flaws and certainly isn't for everyone, but it takes less effort to meme him as a meme than it is to pick apart his points

>>777666

Not to say that OP is memeing or posting in bad faith.

of course you don't need to be a strict scholastic or palamite to be catholic but a interesting exercise in reconcilling both nevertheless:

https://www.arcaneknowledge.org/catholic/palamas.htm

No. Thomist is just a view.

There are lots of other views like the sccotist, mollinist etc.

>>777635

The 5 proofs just show its possible to prove rationally that God exists.

The rest comes later once one accepts this logical conclusion. Namely why God decided to create the world? He wasn't forced to or needed because that would contradict the very nature of God, so He did it out of an act of his will, and since God is Good itself than he created the world out of Love. And then we could go on and then explain why we should accept the scriptures and everything else comes along.

>>777635

> I was leaning on Catholicism because I have a hard time believing the essence energy distinction, do you have any Catholic apologetics against the essence energy distinction?

Never heard of it.

It must be about absolute simplicity. There are tons of stuff about that.

>>777635

>The 5 Proofs can only prove a Demiurge, not the personal God (Logos) of Christianity, and that fallen man should not try to “reason” up to God

These are totally retarded

the 5 proofs aren't meant to prove the Trinity, we can't know that by reason alone, St. Thomas says this. This is like the idea of thomism someone gets from watching short youtube videos or reading a summary by an athiest.

You can't get faith by reason either, this is also thomism, it's an infused theological virtue.

Jay dyer is totally ignorant and by listening to him you seem to be catching it.

Video I linked goes over what the thomism understanding of faith is.

Sorry but you are too ignorant to judge how fairly complex philosophical schools are, Thomism is true and has been affirmed by many Popes but you can in a way be Catholic and not be a thomist, just probably not a very good one.

Stop reading e celebs and if you want to understand theology read plato, aristotle, plotinus, the Church Fathers, and the Doctors of the Church. (yes it isn't easy, that's why the Church used to require approval for anyone speaking publicly about theology)

Check out Thomistic Institute if you want some great audio based explanations of things from the thomistic perspective though

https://thomisticinstitute.org/tracks

https://soundcloud.com/thomisticinstitute/sets/fr-thomas-joseph-white-op

This series is a good general introduction to metaphysics

>>777635

Energy/essence is as old as Protestantism and was only rejected because of everyone against it was "too latin"

It was literally invented by some rich kid in the 1400s

Good talk on the thomistic view of the trinity which might be relevant

>>777616

>I am a new Christian

Why do new Christians always seem to try to delve into either esoteric principles or focus on philosophical minutia? You do realize that you need to learn how to add and subtract before you dive into calculus, right? Learn the basics first. You have an entire lifetime to worry about the deeper stuff.

>>777893

>Thomism is true

Not 100% all the times, but it's the system that can explain things the best.

I really like the thomist explanation on the Trinity.

>>777616

>>777893

>your valid observation is totally retarded

>you might as well be reading stuff by athiests

>Jay dyer is ignorant

>you are ignorant

>Thomism is true because our infallible Popes said so

>not being a thomist makes you a bad Catholic

>If you want to understand theology read a bunch of heretical non-Christian philosophy

Take note OP, that this is the sect you're considering joining. One that's already judging and scolding you for merely expressing interest and clarification.

Nevermind all these convoluted issues about divine simplicity vs energies/essences, it's the fruits of the doctrine of original sin in the West that you see being played out in this thread that you should be concerned about. May the Lord guide you to the truth my brother.

>>777906

Oh come on stop the crying.

Was the other anon wrong pointing out that Jay Dyer doesn't know what thomist is?

>Thomism is true because our infallible Popes said so

Except the church never said that. Nor it can since there are other points of view that are in harmony with the faith.

>If you want to understand theology read a bunch of heretical non-Christian philosophy

What is the orthodox problem with philosophy? Are you guys against knowledge or something? What the hell? How do you guys expect to refute heretics if you don't study philosophy.

Most heresies in the early Church couldn't be attacked if the Fathers didn't know Platonism which was the basis of many heresies.

We couldn't try to convert Muslims if we didn't understand Aristoteles or his way of thinking.

Besides those philosophies can be adapted to Christianity and thus having a solid rational basis to defend Christianity against our enemies.

>>777906

>Take note OP, that this is the sect you're considering joining. One that's already judging and scolding you for merely expressing interest and clarification.

/christian/ is representative of nerds who think Jay Dyer and Most Meme Monastery are the epitome of theological discourse and The Young Pope is a based trad cath show. I would be careful about taking to heart anything anyone says here, unless it is said in a spirit of charity (and I'm myself guilty of being uncharitable and angry here).

>>777909

>Most Meme Monastery

Aren't thus guys sedevacantists? Why should any Catholic listen to them?

>The Young Pope is a based trad cath show.

I've heard of this series. Is it good or is it just American trash with heresies?

>>777913

>Aren't thus guys sedevacantists? Why should any Catholic listen to them?

They get a pass when they argue against Protestants and Orthodox.

>I've heard of this series. Is it good or is it just American trash with heresies?

I don't watch TV series but AFAIK it's alright (I've seen both pious Christians and antitheists think it is great), but the extreme strictness of the protagonist is not supposed to be an exemple to follow. But again I haven't watched the show so I'm not going to die on a hill attacking or defending it.

>>777908

Observe OP, even more vitriol for those who merely hold up a mirror.

>Except the church never said that.

I never said it did. Re-read what the anon I quoted wrote. That's what I was highlighting.

>What is the orthodox problem with philosophy? Are you guys against knowledge or something?

We don't have a problem with philosophy for it's own sake, we have a problem with overly relying on it for the proposes of attempting to gain divine wisdom. The truth revealed to us by Jesus and the holy spirit should take priority over the limited faculties of man alone, and we should respect those things which were left as divine mysteries. That is all. Do not misrepresent our position as some heretical distaste for the divine gift of human reason.

>>777916

S-sodomite scenes?

>>777922

>we have a problem with overly relying on it for the proposes of attempting to gain divine wisdom

No one is trying to get divine wisdom.

There are things which can be proved simply by the human reason like the existance of God, and others that can't be, like the Trinity. Only the faith can prove it.

Nevertheless every teaching of the church is supported by the Bible and Tradition.

Every other thing is pure personal opinion or speculation. One famous example is the limbo of infants where it is supposed unbaptised babies go when they die. We can't find support for it on tradition and the Bible, so it is just an opinion and no one is forced to believe it at all and in the last few years theologians have been rejecting it. So in this case your opinion is as good as mine, provided it isn't heretical.

>Thomism is true and has been affirmed by many Popes but you can in a way be Catholic and not be a thomist,

The only error I can find in that anon sentence is that thomism is true, since there are issues with it that even people who like thomism disagree. It's a very good philosophical view but not 100% true. It is true that it's mainstream on the Church since the Dominicans played a great role in Catholic theology but we also have the school of the jesuits (the non gay ones) and several others. And the anon explicitly says one can be a Catholic without being a thomist which would be incompatible if what you said was true. The anon is probably a real thomist though. One can be a good Catholic without even knowing shit about any of the church philosophical schools or that they even exist.

>>777906

>Take note OP, that this is the sect you're considering joining. One that's already judging and scolding you for merely expressing interest and clarification.

The irony is impeccable.

>>777635

>>777616

Jay dyer is clearly a psy-op. He even admitted to being groomed by a known CIA school in california. He's basically the Alex Jones of Christianity, just be Catholic, the answer is so obvious. You really think Jesus cares more about some autistic philosophy about energies and shit than about unity? It's "become as little children," not "become as prideful fedora-tippers."

>As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.

>20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

>>778078

ironic that you would post that

>>778146

Dyer gets like 5k views per video. 20k if he's lucky. If he's a psyop, it's pretty sad. Alex Jones is blacklisted by the planet and probably still has millions of fans. And his statement on Cali schools is that they are ALL comped. Not that he is comped. I think Christ breaks us from this mindcontrol - and Jay Dyer is no exception. He's a misleading on some things, but I think people should at least give him the credit that he's a Christian. He's never branded himself as anything more than an educated layman.

>>778206

Yeah I think he’s just a decent guy who fell for the orthodoxy meme.

It’s fun to be edgy and contrarian, and in the West, being orthodox is synonymous with that. However, that being said, being Catholic is more counter cultural now than ever, not to mention the fact of it being true, so idk. It would take a lot of humility and self-denial for him to admit he’s wrong and convert publicly. I’m sure his following doesn’t mean nothing to him.

>>778209

>It would take a lot of humility and self-denial for him to admit he’s wrong and convert publicly.

He's already converted twice before, and was catholic for a long time before finally finding the one true church, so I doubt that would stop him if he really wanted to.

>>778206

>I think people should at least give him the credit that he's a Christian

you're asking too much from this board anon, being anything other than catholic means you're sentenced to eternal hell fire around here.

>>778204

>implying the Catholic Church hasn't been more attacked by the CIA

Fixed.

They tried to change the outcome of the Vatican II as well as the American Jewish comitee with their pawn Malachi Martin.

>>778231

Also, on a related note, look up MKOFTEN.

Not to mention the bombing of Nagasaki, of all places in Japan.

>>777616

Jay Dyer does have a Thomistic view of God, he never prays or talks about spiritual health.