/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>736195

Expanding on the Angels and Demons aspect in a Faustian way would be interesting.

>>736195

Are there any major prophets active in the story? A "wizard" that the pagans hate?

>>736199

>in a Faustian way

I like this suggestion, now that you mention it, this is a topic that I like in a lot of the fiction I consumed but I didn't know the name of it.

I really need to (and want to) read a lot more before I start writing.

>>736200

Yeah, there is exactly a character like that, he's in fact one of the most important figures of the main plot. He appears rarely, but has an extremely significant role in regard to the protagonist.

The pagan establishment actively seeks to find and get rid of him, also preaching that he is a dangerous rogue sorcerer and people must watch out for him. However, he is hidden from them.

It's your story and I know my suggestions go against your plot but I can say how I would like a book to be written.

I think you shouldn't even say there is a Christian like religion elsewhere or use strictly Christian vocabulary. And skip enlightened humans altogether by keeping it at demonic magic. There are many ways you can hint the pagan gods are demons by reading on possession. For example, demons really like to call humans meatbags of shit and piss. They also start lying about your dead ones being in hell.

>>736212

>I think you shouldn't even say there is a Christian like religion elsewhere

Well, it's not outright stated; as I said it's concentrated in a small geographical area far, far away from the main-plot-land and nobody there even knows about it. The only sign of it is the prophet I mentioned in my previous post, but he doesen't just straight up info dump reveal it; he only gives the protagonist small and general insights into some things, over the course of a very long period of time (not because he's a "look how smart and mysterious I am" jackass, but because that's the way God wants him to do it), so it's not known.

>or use strictly Christian vocabulary

I also think I shouldn't do this. I plan to have the Christianity stuff be very subtle/hidden and only be fully revealed in the very epilogue of the story mainly to bait nonbelievers and atheists into reading this thing and getting into it, to have the proper build up so it can be convincing and not heavy-handed. I personally knew people who said they loved Lord of the Rings and yet they were big time atheists, which was weird to me. So that's my inspiration here, but I want to go a small step further, to keep it subtle but more obvious.

As for the second part of your post, I don't really want to go for that at the moment. While I believe it would be more theologically sound, right now I'm just getting to writing down ideas and scenes that have been emerging in my head for the past several years, so for now too much of the plot hinges on this element for me to change it, though I'm still open to considering it.

>>736222

Tell me more

>>736233

Avoiding a heavy-handed representation is key. I dint think there are many good Christian fictional works outside of LOTR because so many of them are just so blunt.

>>736195

Gaining power from worship is such a cliché thing nowadays and is related to the consensus reality concept, which is incompatible with Christianity. I think it could be better if wanting to be worshiped was just an ego thing (or possibly being deceived about the importance of worship/being abandoned by demons after becoming irrelevant). The demons could have intentionally chosen to elevate (mainly or solely) narcissists because of the damage they can cause.

>>736233

High school adventure/comedy set in a cynical, corrupt, self-absorbed town, so stained with sin that when the Main Character prays to God to help them all, He miraculously shows them the error of their ways… by turning them into bestial monsters, corresponding to the blemishes they bear on their souls. Main cast is driven to repent, and tragedy and comedy follow the earnest struggles of badly catechized young people to attain and maintain themselves in a state of grace while they fight to thwart the demonic forces destroying their town and its people. And to try and save friends and loved ones without getting called faggots. Can they save the town? Can they even save themselves?

If it works it should strike a balance somewhere between Gremlins and That Hideous Strength.

Would you ever read a story like that?

>>736195

>many characters in the story live according to Christian virtues, despite not knowing the Christianity-equivalent religion or the Old-Testament-Faith religion; this is not their own achievement but rather the result of all men having God's law written on their hearts/conscience and being unknowingly guided by God for a greater purpose

I'd be careful with this, as though the intent may be noble, it can dissuade a reader into being invested in a character.

It takes away agency from the characters actions, be it wrong or right, thereby making them unrelatable. It wasn't "them" who "saved the day", but rather that it was always meant in such a way; there is no struggle or choice if the choice is already made for them. Without struggle, both within and without, there is no story.

I am not saying this cannot be done, for there are no true "rules" in fictional writing, but there are things to keep in mind: namely the audience. To grab their attention, and drag it along from beginning to end is paramount to any successful story no matter its content. This all depends on who your target audience is, and understanding them. It will need finesse; these characters will need to be challenged not just by external forces, but by their own inner, human senses. You have to know your audience, place them in your characters' shoes by putting yourself among them.

I, too, have been working on a (space fantasy)setting with religious themes for the past ~10 odd years. One of the hardest lessons I've learned, being an autodidact, is to avoid picking up bad habits. One of mine was going off on long, overly-descriptive tangents that distracted from the plot progression(AKA "worldbuilder's disease.")

My advice to you would be to take it slow. Write every day, find your own unique style and prose, and decide who you are writing for. Of course the best authors always write for themselves first; if they don't like it, who will? However, that does not undermine the importance of others who will read it. Know them, understand what they would want to read, and develop your story from there.

For example, things which may appeal to an already-religious audience could be off-putting to a curious, but non-religious audience. If your goal is to use your work as a subtle way to evangelize, then you will have to practice just that - subtlety. Keep your themes between the lines, not heavy-handed/ham-fisted. Conversely, that which is written to reach out to a non-religious audience may be distasteful to those already faithful. You are never going to please everybody, which is why a target audience is necessary. Whatever your audience, the last thing you want to do is annoy or insult your audience.

To go back to the highlighted example: those already religious probably would not mind this as they can relate to this and understand it well, but such a thing would not draw in anyone who does not see things this way. In a most blunt sense, such characters would be seen as "mary sues", which boils down to a character that is not only unchallenged, but has no agency to their actions and whatever potential challenges they could face.

In the end, write what you want to write, but be shrewd and tactful for writing is, no matter the means or methods, a form of communication. To summarize; what is your goal? Who is your audience?

Also, for a bit of advice on how to organize a pre-write, is to decide on an ending first. After that, work on the beginning(the beginning is the hardest part for a writer without an existing following, because it does not matter how good the rest of a story is if they're yawning by the first few pages. Why do you think the pilot episodes of TV shows are often full of action and adrenaline?) You have to get the buns on the plate before you can grab the burger.

>>736418

In a fantasy setting, allegorical or not, creative liberties will have to be taken. Otherwise the story serves no purpose and may as well not be written. It's the literary equivalent of having two copies of the same painting decorating the same wall.

>>736454

Forgot to mention: Also, after their "ascension" the deities themselves are more and more warped by their own vices. Over time they move away from wanting to create their vision of "utopia" for people, and much more into each following their own desires - worship, pleasure, violence and hatred, etc.

>>736418

They do, in reality, look spooky and demonic. Also I don't know how else to go about it. God wouldn't directly give them powers, before they would do evil. They also couldn't just acquire all those powers by acts of their own will and strength. Demons is the only way I can think of it right now, but God allowed all of this to happen, because it's all a part of the master plan of salvation if you know what I mean.

>>736444

>I'd be careful with this, as though the intent may be noble, it can dissuade a reader into being invested in a character.

>It takes away agency from the characters actions, be it wrong or right, thereby making them unrelatable. It wasn't "them" who "saved the day", but rather that it was always meant in such a way; there is no struggle or choice if the choice is already made for them. Without struggle, both within and without, there is no story.

Also forgot to mention two important things in my post:

those "virtous" people are rare, most are wicked, and those "virtous" ones are far from perfect paragons, they all have some vices, even major ones because they don't have detailed knowledge of morality.

Also the agency and struggle thing you mentioned is very important to me too. I only gave you guys an insight about how it works, but that's not revealed in the book (until the very end). The characters go through A LOT of trials, and achieve a lot by struggling, failing, rising again and training to become stronger. It is in fact one of the biggest themes of the story - great/exceptional people, what separates them from the mediocre ones, how much one can achieve.

The protagonist especially, achieves a lot, and suffers a lot, and he thinks that every single thing he has achieved is due to his strong will, determination, skill and training.

It's only in the epilogue, where he experiences a revelation and is told that he only managed to do all those impossible deeds because God allowed him to. And if it wasn't for that he could have been a meager and mediocre nobody, so he shouldn't worship his powers.

The protagonist completely rejects these revelations at first, as they seemingly go against everything he believed and did up to this point. It's also hard for him to submit to God, after fighting against the deities all that time. So I am keeping this in mind and it's a major source of conflict.

>Also, for a bit of advice on how to organize a pre-write, is to decide on an ending first. After that, work on the beginning(the beginning is the hardest part for a writer without an existing following, because it does not matter how good the rest of a story is if they're yawning by the first few pages. Why do you think the pilot episodes of TV shows are often full of action and adrenaline?) You have to get the buns on the plate before you can grab the burger.

I do have an ending in mind, and most of the story, as well as the begninning. Now I'm fleshing out the details, without yet filling in the blanks between the big important plot events.

Sorry for multiple posting but it's hard to keep this all in mind at once lol

This video might inspire you. Also all the other stuff on the channel about angels, demons, spiritual warfare.

For symbology you can look at Jonathan pageau's youtube channel and read some of his recommended reading list books on his website.

>>736455

If you explain it with demons, you are in effect adding to the story new characters with their own goals and some ability to achieve them. If all you want is a simple plot device for the backstory, it would be better to use something that doesn't generate even more potential plot holes that need to be bridged. Since it's fantasy, you could just choose to be really vague, I guess, and refer to some terms that never get properly explained to the reader.

However I think including the demons has potential. You just need to consider their motives and powers. Making people into "gods" implies a lot of capability at least in specific things. What other things the demons have done? Are there any around in the present? Could they produce new humans with super powers, at least if someone knew the ritual?

>>736455

>Demons is the only way I can think of it right now

if they have some powers bestowed by God, humans can have it too.

Also, as far as I know, demons can, at best, grant information and knowledge, not powers themselves. Or help in illusions.

>They also couldn't just acquire all those powers by acts of their own will and strength

Humans are made in image and likeness of God, so why not? Although, it's your setting and your fiction, so I dont want to meddle with it a lot.

I don't know if you will be interested or not, but I tried some fantasy worldbuilding and setting was post-resurrection, with actual fantasy races like elves and so on. Main "supernatural" beings were angelic and human beings, with demons and damned tried to influence various races for their purposes and sort of waged war with eachother. I had demons act like, well, demons to work in shadows, deceive and ruin stuff, while damned would act like pagan deities and demand sacrifices to wage war against demons (latter was sort of inspired by Aztec tales about Huizilopochtli) . Both of them opposed by faith about one true God and faithful protected by Saints and Angels.

Anywho, I just brought up this because, while I said that power by their will and strength is technically possible, I think that such thing works in post-resurrection setting far more better, but it's a bit tricky and needs a lot to work on.

>>736413

>by turning them into bestial monsters, corresponding to the blemishes they bear on their souls.

I like this kind of theme, so I think I'd read it

>>736915

I think that newer one is far better, far simpler while less convoluted.

Also first one was somewhat Origenistic.

>>736924

The "soul" dimension thing still exists in the newer version, with most of it's features. However it's less uh, heretical and no longer a form of afterlife.

>>736925

No, I didnt mean immaterial world in general. I was talking about sphere stuff.

>>736454

Metal Gear Solid 2 was a good game.

Hey guys, not to derail this thread but I am also a writer, trying to use religious themes.

Do y'all think it would be out of the 'Spirit of Charity' to like, have a kind of Christian terrorist group that goes around killing corrupt people in government, etc, basically taking America over by force.

I want them to seem badass but Christian, what do you guys think?

What do you guys think about Christians disposing of pacifism and finally beginning to kill their existential and racial enemies?

>>738188

Checked, Sounds cool I heard a guy from another site say this quote what I thought would be cool for Christian militant: In life, war. In death, peace. In life, sin. In death, atonement but I think it’s a copy form a quote from Warhammer 40k

>>738188

The only way I would approve of this would be if they were fighting a future authoritarian regime that takes over. Like the whole UN black helicopters Agenda 21 scenario people used to worry about. I don't think showing Christians committing terrorism in a setting that is pretty much like our world today would be a good idea, for a number of reasons. Also if these Christians are supposed to be the heroes they should conduct their war in a moral way.

>>738188

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/just_war.htm

>>738188

Christian terrorism is an oxymoron and goes against everything Christianity stands for.

Id advise going just war route in Huntingtons "Clash of civilizations" scenario.

Whenever I think about religion in fiction, I think of Okami. It's mostly Japanese mythology/Shintoism, but the main character is the sun goddess reincarnated into a wolf. The entire game is about helping people and the animals you come a cross, while also stopping the evil from taking over the land. There's a part near the end that I always found heartwarming, though. The main character is about to ascend and leave the planet, so she has to leave behind her companion, a little spirit named Issun. He realizes that for the battle she is about to face, she needs to get all the power she can, so he paints posters and flings them at every person he can, proclaiming something along the lines of 'you can ask the gods for help and they will surely help, but meed you to believe in them, and pray for them too!' It made the main character strong enough to defeat the final boss, where the game ends soon after.

Not entirely related, but I bring it up because religious themes tend to have two types: subtle and thoughtful, or 'this is my opinion dammit acknowledge it.'

>>736917

So magic is ok if Christians in the story use it?

>>739192

Magic as it is understood and condemned in classical Christianity is contacting demons and the dead (latter known as necromancy). It usually isn't even throwing fireballs and stuff, but merely obtaining information, like prediction of future or location of certain items.

Magic nowadays however is applied to everything supernatural. Apostles healing people, Jesus transforming water into wine, Elisha's skull resurrecting some guy and such would also come under modern day umbrella definition of "magic". In fact, some scientific achievements would also count as magic. Long iron stick summoning thunderbolt and killing men in distance isnt called "magic wand", it's called a "rifle".

>>739201

>In fact, some scientific achievements would also count as magic. Long iron stick summoning thunderbolt and killing men in distance isnt called "magic wand", it's called a "rifle".

For any fledgling writers who aren't aware, there's an actual term for this. I think this gets a little overused nowadays, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws

>>739201

oh my. then I think it should be fine to have Christian characters able to shoot out fireballs and lasers.

Anyways I have an idea for a Christian themed story, which I might put into the next National Nonut November Writing Month once I figure out how everything will go and if I have time. Here goes:

>modern day setting

>humanity is always constantly under assault by entities known as the Watchers, angels who rebelled against God

>Watcher and demonic incursions are psychic and mental in nature, taking place in a dimension that is the collective manifestation of human consciousness known as the Phantasia

>The Phantasia can affect the physical realm and thus, demonic activity can actually leak out into the material realm

>People with strong psychic and mental powers can harness the powers of the Phantasia and manifest it materially(essentially 'magic'). Some of these are exceptionally gifted where they are able to manifest what they desire just by wishing or having the desire in the first place. These people are usually called the "Blessed" or "Beloved", as it is seen as God's love that grant their desires or protect them. Due to their nature, they are highly sought after by the various in universe organizations often for protection or exploitation.

>Most ordinary people are unaware of the Phantasia, demons or the various organizations fighting for control over it or dealing with demonic incursions safe for top level government agencies which usually just call upon organizations that specialize in demonic incursions to deal with any supernatural threat.

>Various organizations exploiting the Phantasia or dealing with demonic incursions. Many are also in conflict with one another due to differing philosophies and intent.

>Main organisation, the Areopagus deal primarily with countering demonic incursions and possession of humans. Also Christian and Eastern Orthodox in nature. Leader is considered supernatural as his origins is virtually unknown and bears uncanny similarities to past leaders. Will be implied subtly to be an angel

>Other Christian organizations that do the same thing as the Areopagus exist, with the Anglican-Lutheran Order of St George and Roman Catholic Ordo Celestius.

>The Areopagus, Order of St George and Ordo Celestius are usually suspicious of one another and usually try to reduce each other's share of power. Sometimes they work together to deal with demonic threats where necessary.

>Some antagonistic organizations, mostly Gnostic or Demonic in nature. To Gnostics, the destruction of the Phantasia is intended to ensure Ascension. Some also want to destroy the material realm and leave only the Phantasia for Ascension. Demonic organizations take form of cults founded under demonic influence.

>There is a large corporation specialising in neuroscience and psychology that intend to open a direct gateway into the Phantasia.

>Demons and Watchers have some Lovecraftian traits, and looking at them directly can cause insanity due to the sheer depravity and darkness. It also enables direct possession and control due to the "likeness" now impressed into the minds of those that saw them directly. They are grotesque in their true form but can sometimes disguise themselves as angels or ordinary humans(usually by possession). Most of the time, they are just seen as "shadows" or "shades". Sometimes they manifest as gods and trick people into worshipping them for material or personal gain.

>MC is a former member of the Areopagus, left due to the guilt of being unable to save his lover from demonic possession when requested by her father, a CEO of the said corporation to perform an exorcism to cure her. Unable to bear the guilt of failing to save her, he accepts being taken under the wing of her father in gathering some documents, artefacts and special individuals(the Blessed) for "research purposes" to be able to bring his daughter back. She is in a comatose state but her "soul" is said to be under possession of the Watchers.

>After some time, the experiments and research done by the corporation eventually result in an upsurge in demonic incursions and supernatural phenomenon, attracting the attention of the Areopagus

And…I havent figure out the rest. Presumably, I imagine the fights to be akin to how fights are choreographed in Jojo, where the protagonist(and sometimes together with his team) have to deal with various enemies that can manipulate the Phantasia which manifest into various special abilities. Usually religiously inclined attacks are targeted at demons, cultists and Gnostics where Biblical verses, prayers, incense, portable icons(sometimes relics), crosses and holy water are used, as these are effective against the demonically influenced and demonic. Sometimes if the enemy is a demonic entity, combatants will try to fight without directly looking at it and focusing on an Icon while chanting prayers or verses of Scriptures to focus the mind away from "imagining" the form of the entity faced.

>>739201

>but merely obtaining information, like prediction of future

I'll take "what is divination" for $500, Alex.

Only God knows the future

>>739641

demons and dead arent limited by (fallen) bodies and thus can predict certain things, but based purely on logic and intuition. This is why some "prophesies" of false prophets dont become true.

>>739654

what an absurd conjecture