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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: 70284d61f4e9bc3⋯.jpg (79.04 KB, 1280x811, 1280:811, Hurin_and_Morwen.jpg)

422a60  No.738877

Is suicide unequivocally to be condemned? It is not that I fear for myself and I see that people suicide for a lot of pity reasons. But there are cases were persons had a really hard time and the heart would say not to condemn them.

G.K Chesterton has a very clear view on this, which explains most cases:

>Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world.

>Obviously a suicide is the opposite of a martyr. A martyr is a man who cares so much for something outside him, that he forgets his own personal life. A suicide is a man who cares so little for anything outside him, that he wants to see the last of everything. One wants something to begin: the other wants everything to end.

Now there is this concept in literature, which itself comes from life, where a character would at the end of the tragedy kill himself. The reason being shame for done deeds and seeking repentance, or utter despair.

The first case could be supported by scripture.

Judas hangs himself in the Gospel of Matthew and the OT has mentions of suicide after betrayels, lost battles etc.

But the second case is the more interesting one. Where one can really pity the person, but it doesn't look good.

At the end of The Children of Hurin (If you haven't read it, I can recommend it. Better than LotR) Turin kills himself with his sword. He accomplished much but also racked up much of guilt he thought he needed to atone for. This seems more clear cut. Would he be redeemed?

The other case I'm more wondering about, is his sister Niënor. After a ban is lifted from her memory, she realizes her unborn child is from her brother, adding to her despair and then jumps of a cliff. That looks real bad to get out from. How could she possiblly be redeemed?

e4b41d  No.738892

In both of those cases it seems like they thought it was too hard to seek redemption. So they didn't seek it. And they won't get it.


05a561  No.738958

In the case of madness, what then?

And then when the question becomes grayer… If the person basically had their wits about them but was neurotic, or perhaps destabilized by medication, or suffering from the withdrawal thereof?

spoilergood Lord i know so many people in this category I pray for all the time fam**


e4b41d  No.738975

>>738958

Sin has to be voluntary. If they've actually lost control it's not a sin. The second part is a bit grayer.


86b447  No.738987

>>738975

>Sin has to be voluntary.

I wish this were in gigantic 40pt bold text at the top of this board.


fb69c3  No.738993

File: 10e36c0c49a8170⋯.jpg (35.99 KB, 615x409, 615:409, gandalf4.jpg)

>>738877

>The Children of Hurin

who now?

>he thought he needed to atone for

So, why didn't he allow Christ to do that atoning. Why did he an hero as though a mere ungodly human life can atone for its sins?

I'm surprised JRRT wrote that because he was a fan of Chesterton and was the Cathbro who converted CSLewis, so suuuurely he was aware of the church's teaching on the matter? So, why write the hero to an hero?

Why, Tolkein? Why?

This is where I get antsy about JRRT. He wrote some wondrous stuff, but it's TOO rooted in the mythology he spent his life studying and has insufficient commentary to extol the godliness and reject the bad. God isn't even referenced in LotR, implicitly or explicitly. So there's "angels peeking through" or lembas bread mirrors the eucharist … whoop de doo. It's "good", and better than 99% of the trash out there, but why not actually good? All he's done is add to the collection of mythological demi-gods and mortals without any objective.


f4c076  No.739023

File: 620c8dc82b14547⋯.jpg (18.06 KB, 393x415, 393:415, Turin-Artwork.jpg)

>>738993

>why did Turin an hero?

Tolkien's universe is not the same universe as ours. Their rules are different. Jesus couldn't do the atoning for Turin because Jesus doesn't exist in Arda.

He also did not kill himself only to atone for his sins. Up until that point he had led an incredibly shitty life because he had been cursed by Morgoth. Basically his entire life story was disaster after disaster, some due to Morgoth, some due to himself. He could not live with himself after seeing all the tragedy he had caused, and could not go on with living with the grief.

It was a combination of despair, desire to atone for his sins, and an inability to cope with the idea of living further under the curse of Morgoth.

Additionally, Turin did possibly get a chance to redeem himself, depending on which notes you want to read. He comes back to life and kills Morgoth.

>In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.


94a4f4  No.739200

>>739023

>Their rules are different. Jesus couldn't do the atoning for Turin because Jesus doesn't exist in Arda

Actually I thing that Tolkien said the LOTR happened 6000 years before Christ in the book's lore.

>>738877

Thanks for the spoilers.


f4c076  No.739214

>>739200

>LOTR happened 6000 years before Christ

eh sorta. Tolkien hinted at it but never anything overt, to my knowledge. Additionally, if that is the correct interpretation, Turin wouldn't even have had knowledge of Jesus or of God. The elves barely knew about Illuvatar, and the elves in Middle Earth barely knew the Valar, the closest proxy of Illuvatar.

>thanks for the spoilers

Enjoy reading it, it's still good.


54b925  No.739284

>>739214

I never knew if God (Illuvatar) revealed to the people of Arda. I heard that it was God that apparently help Frodo killing Gollum.

The books themselves, at least in the hobbit or LOTR never mention any religious rituals, although people from what I can see know what's good and evil and follow the natural law. And for some of them to know about the existence of the valar implies somelne told them stuff.


54b925  No.739298

>>738877

>After a ban is lifted from her memory, she realizes her unborn child is from her brother, adding to her despair and then jumps of a cliff.

Btw OP how did this happened?

Tolkien never mentions sexual stuff.

I guess there isn't even a kiss on the cheek in the entire LOTR


f4c076  No.739330

>>739298

Just because Tolkien doesn't mention it doesn't mean it's not there. Children are born all the time, for example.

I can only remember two explicit mentions of sex. One is Maeglin lusting after his cousin, and Tolkien clearly demonstrates that this is evil because it caused him to betray Gondolin. The other one is Turin saving a girl from being raped by a bandit. Every other 'sign' of sex is from children being born. That doesn't mean it isn't happening, it means that Tolkien didn't want to illustrate it specifically.


54b925  No.739339

>>739330

So he basically uses those examples to show its wrong.

I was finding it very odd knowing what kind of a good man Tolkien was.

Nowadays every book has sex and all that shit specially those shitty books like game of thrones that only profit because they use the author winnie the poohed up fetishes to sell books.

One of the main thing that attracted me in the Lord of the rings was the absence of all that shit. Even the two love stories there, namely the one with Aragorn and Arwen, and Faramir and Éowyn, are perfect examples of Christian courtship.




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