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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 6d4386a593fbe60⋯.jpg (66.37 KB, 989x1000, 989:1000, s-l1000.jpg)

ee0bfc No.575864

To the Pagan posters here, I just want you to know that despite our disagreements on who the jews are, racemixing, varg or morality in general, our goal isn't to piss you off with memes (at least it shouldn't be), it's to have an exchange of ideas. A lot of Christians here enjoy studying other religions or civilizations to get a better understand of both the bible and everyone else. There are a lot of misconceptions about Christians on /pol/.

f037e3 No.575867

>Ecumenism

>appeasing tree-worshippers


ae4e07 No.575869

File: b28cb28c147c534⋯.jpg (118.69 KB, 530x507, 530:507, 0c4cacae7b7e7d7e8c421f744d….jpg)

>>575864

>treeniggers


ee0bfc No.575871

>>575867

>religious co-operation

No, this isn't a mixing of religions, it's more of an encouragement for civility despite clear disagreements.


d32a36 No.575872

There are no "arguments" here, only insane in-group crawling and inorganic "divide&conquer" tactics sprouted by outside shills.

>pointing out the similarities and origins of christian traditions in ancient religions

>BAN

>even implying there was religiosity before christ and outside of judaism

>it was "tree-worshipping". I will be a "good christian" now and lie, not by repeating the many deturpations made by monks in the middle ages, but by quoting some jew psychoanalist who said they drank cum!

>also BAN

>question the history and actions of the church and the elites behind it, past and present

>BAN

>question the overwhelming jewish nature of it, how you just hate jews because you claim to have the rightful interpretation of THEIR traditions

>muh pharisees, BAN

Sorry to say so, but there weren't any misconceptions about you on /pol/, the only thing I got from reading here was understanding why you needed 1700 years of "inquisitions" and murdering everyone who questioned "your" beliefs, even whole sects of your own brothers who were "heretics", to maintain your dominance, with the support of certain "shadowy elites". Hard to figure why, once these same elites were shaken off christianity, your entire religion declined to irrelevance and mockery, yes, for rootless atheism, sadly.

Just avoid the issue, and use this board as containment. You're self-harming your cause, and allowing outsiders to exploit it by doing otherwise.


63f88b No.575875

>>575872

It's sad to see that you're so entrenched in this mindset. May God have mercy on you and help you understand what you're missing.


f037e3 No.575876

>>575871

I don't care about civility for idolators, nor should anyone.

I want them to repent and convert.

>>575872

This is your brain on semen.


3a504f No.575879

People like pagans dont "believe" in paganism because of an argument they heard. They "believe" in it because they like it.

So you can't really argue against them, because theyre not convinced by arguments. No matter how well you argue, they like paganism and will role play in it.


dfceaa No.575883

>>575872

>question the overwhelming jewish nature of it, how you just hate jews because you claim to have the rightful interpretation of THEIR traditions

Your underlying assumption here is that all gods and religions are made up. That, if Jews worshipped a certain God, it is because they made that God up, and could not be because that God was real and chose to reveal Himself to that nation first. This is why you follow pagan gods. Your mind cannot even conceive of god/s that actually exist, so you settle on pagan gods merely because your ancestors followed them and you see utilitarian value in this as it is consistent with your racial ideology.


d32a36 No.575885

>>575883

But what is to say our ancestors did not knew about, and worshipped, God? You're the one implying that all other gods and religiosity are made-up because they do not stem from the tradition you believe in, the jewish.

The more you look upon it, the more you see that 1. the ancient knowledge of our ancestors was deliberately destroyed (or attempted to) by the people (the elites) behind such jewish traditions - thus, you have to go to ruined places like Pompei to even find the remains of the ancient world 2. these elites kept this knowledge to themselves, as a mean to control the people, or you don't think the pope believes the same thing he preaches to his flock of sheep, while wearing "Saturn Hats" and decorating Rome with Obelisks.

The problem here is much bigger than "believing in God", which is an obvious given, or not.


d32a36 No.575888

>>575884

>lol we cut down le tree and you instantly left your idols

Or you know, maybe, MAYBE, the cultic center of that province was destroyed with the backing of Frankish authorities and worship there was forbidden and punished by death by these nobles, making people scatter and keep their believes to themselves, as folk traditions, so as they would not be persecuted by these authorities.

I see the memetic value, but, honestly, you have to admit you're just cheering your own destruction. The imposition of feudalism, with the consent of the church, upon the much freer ancient world meant the people, including the common christian folk, lived in poverty, starved, being subject to rape and drafted into the armies of the elites, while the clergy and nobility lived in luxury.

Near all literacy was banned to the people, even the bible, inequality was tenet of the law - they were subjected to all sorts of abuses and at places even had to give their children as "tithes" to monasteries.


9cfb5e No.575892

>>575888

The freedom to die of a tooth infection, in a freezing hut, illiterate, in the middle of Germany, in the winter, all the while worrying about being killed by the neighboring tribe? I mean you make a compelling case but I'm going to have to pass


d32a36 No.575898

>>575892

As opposed to dying of the plague later on? You don't have to worry about being killed by the neighboring tribe if you're a slave to some noble, until the neighboring ruler comes to burn your local town… I mean, all of these things you said continued under the christian medieval era… Let's not de-rail this with sillyness.


dfceaa No.575900

>>575885

The central issue is what's true. If Christianity arose out of the Jewish ethnic group and Asatru arose out of the Germanic ethnic group, that really has no bearing on whether or not each religion is true.

Vikings spread their culture mostly orally. Runes were talismanic. Only contact with superior Christian society gave vikings a complete alphabet and the ability to interact with a sophisticated culture of literacy. So this idea that Christians wiped out this brilliant advanced pagan society is bunk.


f037e3 No.575901

>>575888

>The imposition of feudalism, with the consent of the church, upon the much freer ancient world meant the people, including the common christian folk, lived in poverty, starved, being subject to rape and drafted into the armies of the elites, while the clergy and nobility lived in luxury.

This is literally all of human history. If you think that this was made worse or somehow was something sui generis of Christianity, you need to shake yourself.

I'd argue it was in fact safer under Christian law than under the law of the jungle, since it put an end to people raiding and killing each other over petty shit like blood feuds and tribal raiding for sacrifices.

Plus stuff like rape were curtailed since now moral law stated that women couldn't just be carted off as war booty or raped at will, and to commit rape was to suffer death penalty in many places. As for "being drafted", it was less imperative to take up arms for your feudal lord than for your local pagan chief.

>Near all literacy was banned to the people,

Hilarious complaint, since literally was pretty much non-existent anyway. Literacy was never banned it just wasn't viewed as necessary, again just like pagans believed.

>even the bible, inequality was tenet of the law

Again as opposed to what, some egalitarian pagan past where hierarchy and suffering were totally alien? Then as now, inequality is a fact and trying to airbrush it out of reality is pure fantasy. We believe in struggle against adversity, which, I thought, pagans also believed in.

> they were subjected to all sorts of abuses and at places even had to give their children as "tithes" to monasteries.

Giving your children voluntarily to the local monastic community where they would be fed, educated and cared for is so much worse than giving them reluctantly to a witchdoctor to be sacrificed in a bog for a good harvest, I completely agree.


9cfb5e No.575902

>>575898

We say those are bad things and aberrant. How can you do the same?


ee0bfc No.575903

File: 1bfdab4686a5863⋯.webm (13.31 MB, 854x480, 427:240, Masons, order of templar ….webm)

>>575872

>>pointing out the similarities and origins of christian traditions in ancient religions

>>even implying there was religiosity before christ and outside of judaism

>BAN

Do you even browse the board, there are a lot of threads about this. Comparing Mesopotamian religions before Jesus, i just made a thread about the similarities of the flood.

>>574949

>>question the history and actions of the church and the elites behind it, past and present

>BAN

>>550055

>>question the overwhelming jewish nature of it, how you just hate jews because you claim to have the rightful interpretation of THEIR tradition

>BAN

This has been answered to death. Also we talk about these topics in the /christian pol/ general.

Funny how i didn't get banned despite making the same kinds of threads.

>there weren't any misconceptions about you on /pol/

At least learn the answers to your theories outside of you or our opposition's perspective, you're like someone who only goes to feminists to learn about masculinity.

>maintain your dominance, with the support of certain "shadowy elites

That's such an ambiguous view, and completely ignorant to how the people in power work.


d32a36 No.575905

>>575901

But that is not true at all, the "Thirty Years War" alone, fought between christian brothers over religious interpretations, killed 40% of the German population. The "Gallic Wars", for instance, the most violent recorded conflict in pre-christian and destruction of "law of the jungle" times "only" killed or enslaved about 20% of Gaul, with the Romans openly looting and genociding entire peoples out of hatred.

If you look at the ancient sources, rape was not a common practice among germanic tribes, who had strong family and marriage institutions, only marrying people of common age, that took no one before or later - adultery was seen as absent. You can't say christianity things improved in that regard, especially when you had such social inequality and institutions like "Prima Noctae" where the nobility could take it's peasants wife on it's first night of marriage. Not to mention the many abuses who would be covered up, simply because of how powerful the nobility and clergy were - they were the ones who wrote the records in the end too.

And if you also look at it, tribal assemblies and "things", and how norse warlords assembled their armies - by prestige and oaths, comitatus, richly rewarding it's followers who partaked in their feats of arms - they were fighting for their tribe, certainly not forcefully drafted into the armies of some petty lord. You have to remember that institutions like the English Navy would simply "impress" sailors, local countryman whom they dragged out of taverns and even their homes in times of war, and sent to far places like China - many dying, becoming castaways and such. No similar thing in viking ships and expeditions to be sure.

And it must be added that, in medieval times, you had wars as silly as between literal brothers, competing for some throne - because of such "legality" you praise. The "Hundred Years War" was a conflict between different french noble houses, because they couldn't agree who the "rightfull ruler" of the kingdom was. It costed millions of lives and distracted christians from efforts like the Crusade.

It's not utopic to claim that the tribal societies under germanic law had less state-sanctioned suffering than the trials by ordeal and abuses perpertrated by instituted nobility. And you should look on the practice of giving child as "tithes"…


dfceaa No.575908

>>575905

>But that is not true at all, the "Thirty Years War" alone, fought between christian brothers over religious interpretations, killed 40% of the German population. The "Gallic Wars", for instance, the most violent recorded conflict in pre-christian and destruction of "law of the jungle" times "only" killed or enslaved about 20% of Gaul, with the Romans openly looting and genociding entire peoples out of hatred.

This is like the argument I heard that African dictators were less bad than European ones since none of them had killed a million+ people. It's not because the Africans/pagans are so loving and peaceful, it's that when you have a less advanced society, conflict will naturally do less damage. You don't think the fact that they had muskets and cannons in the 30 years war played a factor in it being more destructive?


dfceaa No.575909

>>575905

>You can't say christianity things improved in that regard, especially when you had such social inequality and institutions like "Prima Noctae" where the nobility could take it's peasants wife on it's first night of marriage.

Nice enlightenment era propaganda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Droit_du_seigneur

>There is no evidence of the right being exercised in medieval Europe, and all known references to it are from later time periods.[1][2] Overall, medieval jus primae noctis can be considered a historical fiction fabricated after that era.[3]


d32a36 No.575913

>>575908

>You don't think the fact that they had muskets and cannons in the 30 years war played a factor in it being more destructive?

No, because these were employed only in the battlefields. I'm talking about the thousands of villages, castles and places who were destroyed by the Swedish Army alone. Both sides, protestant and catholic, were known to commit abuses upon each other's christian POPULATION, the Spanish mercenary army (although a century before), the "defenders of christendom" even sacked Rome. This entire conflict was financed by outside powers - the Catholic French even gave money to the Protestant side, despite persecuting them inside France - so to kill and weaken the german states. All while the Turks approached Vienna…

So yes, the point I made stands, such "rule of the jungle" was unchanged by "civilizing" christianity…


f037e3 No.575915

>>575905

>But that is not true at all, the "Thirty Years War" alone, fought between christian brothers over religious interpretations, killed 40% of the German population. The "Gallic Wars", for instance, the most violent recorded conflict in pre-christian and destruction of "law of the jungle" times "only" killed or enslaved about 20% of Gaul, with the Romans openly looting and genociding entire peoples out of hatred.

<our violence wasn't as bad as yours, so it is ok!

>If you look at the ancient sources, rape was not a common practice among germanic tribes, who had strong family and marriage institutions, only marrying people of common age, that took no one before or later

>adultery was seen as absent.

Tacitus disagrees, who says that adultresses are stripped and driven from their homes by whips.

>You can't say christianity things improved in that regard, especially when you had such social inequality and institutions like "Prima Noctae" where the nobility could take it's peasants wife on it's first night of marriage.

>He unironically believes in "Prima Noctae"!

>Not to mention the many abuses who would be covered up, simply because of how powerful the nobility and clergy were - they were the ones who wrote the records in the end too.

Kek yeah because muh innocent pagans never did any wrong since they all believed in honour and virtue!

>And if you also look at it, tribal assemblies and "things", and how norse warlords assembled their armies - by prestige and oaths, comitatus, richly rewarding it's followers who partaked in their feats of arms - they were fighting for their tribe, certainly not forcefully drafted into the armies of some petty lord. You have to remember that institutions like the English Navy would simply "impress" sailors, local countryman whom they dragged out of taverns and even their homes in times of war, and sent to far places like China - many dying, becoming castaways and such. No similar thing in viking ships and expeditions to be sure.

Vikings make not have had many slaves going to places, but returningthey certainly did. This is the reason that in Iceland, for example, the male population is genetically Nordic, but the female population is largely Irish/Scottish.

I really don't know why you keep referring to Germanics alone when what you are talking about was also common currency in the Mediterranean powers. Even then, you are at best comparing 9th century maennerbunds with 19th century military power, neither of which have anything to do with Christianity.

>And it must be added that, in medieval times, you had wars as silly as between literal brothers, competing for some throne - because of such "legality" you praise.

Yeah it's almost like human nature is corrupt or something!

>The "Hundred Years War" was a conflict between different french noble houses, because they couldn't agree who the "rightfull ruler" of the kingdom was. It costed millions of lives and distracted christians from efforts like the Crusade.

Like the Northern crusades against nordic, baltic and slavic pagans? Or just against those undesirable sand people?

>It's not utopic to claim that the tribal societies under germanic law had less state-sanctioned suffering than the trials by ordeal and abuses perpertrated by instituted nobility.

Roman and Greek laws concerning the "pecking order" for homosexual behaviour beg to differ, where it was seen as disgraceful for an aristocrat to receive from a servant, but not vice versa.

Germanic law was based mostly on honour, blood-feuds and wergild

At least in the Middle Ages the Church set itself up as a counterweight to secular authority. What was this in the pre-Christian era, where often the religious and royal leadership was often the same person?

>And you should look on the practice of giving child as "tithes"…


d32a36 No.575916

>>575909

>everything is "jacobin propaganda", the dark ages were a myth!

Ok, risking de-railing the thread into "history discussion" permanently, but, the peasants and even lower ranking nobility weren't allowed to travel without their lord's permission. Serfs in Russia were bought and sold between lords, even exchanged for horses and dogs. To think instituted nobility, and even clergy at cases, did not predate peasant woman, because the legends of Prima Noctae were partially annedoctal, is just extremely naive.

To quote here, I've seem the marriage traditions in places like Pommerania, where the bride dresses up in black and in the ugliest way possible, because they had such a history of trying not to caught the attention of their local Swedish Lords.


f037e3 No.575917

>>575915

>If you look at the ancient sources, rape was not a common practice among germanic tribes, who had strong family and marriage institutions, only marrying people of common age, that took no one before or later

Something good, surely, and improved by Christianity.

>>And you should look on the practice of giving child as "tithes"…

Meaning what?


d32a36 No.575920

>>575915

I never said "our violence wasn't as bad as yours", but that christianity didn't improve the violence of the ancient world - maybe because it has little to do with religion, and that christianity never claimed to want to improve such things?

What I meant by Tacitus was when he said "Adultery is almost not to be found, being harshly punished", as you described.

I quoted prima-noctae in another post and will not repeat myself. The vikings did not change the system of slavery they came upon in Christian Britain.

Lastly, the christians setting up new layers of state upon the tribal populations, not just by instituting a privileged clergy, but also the landed nobility, did little to prevent abuses, especially as these two intertwinned. You should look upon Germanic Kingship, but, again, that was not the purpose of the thread.


f037e3 No.575935

>>575920

>I never said "our violence wasn't as bad as yours", but that christianity didn't improve the violence of the ancient world -

I'd argue it did, by also raising it to state level and not merely village-on-village orgies of violence, raiding and ritual warfare.

>maybe because it has little to do with religion, and that christianity never claimed to want to improve such things?

Actually it did. That it failed it due to corrupt men, not the Faith. To refer to one of your posts upthread, the reason e.g. the Franks came down so heavily on the Saxons was because many missionaries had been sent peacefully to the region and were martyred. Couple this with the fact that the Saxons kept violating their treaties with the Franks, and you have heavy-handed measures being used to ply them into submission. But make no mistake Christian advisors and the clergy around Charlemagne rebuked him for forcibly baptising the Saxons, as they, like we do today, consider forced conversion illegitimate.

>I quoted prima-noctae in another post and will not repeat myself.

Prima noctae is still a fable. Even if it was "statutory" it was still scarecly enforced and if so by corrupt souls. You "i have an anecdote ergo it is true" doesn't cut it. As far as folk customs go, it doesn't prove anything. People also carried garlic in case they met vampires. It doesn't mean vampires actually existed.

And yes, the Dark Ages were also a myth.

>The vikings did not change the system of slavery they came upon in Christian Britain.

Because it was a Christianised version of the kind described both in the Bible and Germania, i.e. indentured servitude.

Not that that mattered since the pagan Norse didn't give a stuff about their Germanic bretheren and raided and killed them anyway.

>Lastly, the christians setting up new layers of state upon the tribal populations, not just by instituting a privileged clergy, but also the landed nobility, did little to prevent abuses, especially as these two intertwinned.

OK first of all all priestly classes from the ancient world were privileged, especially if one subscribes to the Indo-European "Priest-Warrior-Farmer" triad theory, which delineated three separate social classes. Again, you need to think again if you think the first two classes didn't abuse the shit out of the latter.

Second, statism wasn't some Christian innovation, it was a carryover from the great pagan empires, Rome especially.

>You should look upon Germanic Kingship, but, again, that was not the purpose of the thread.

I know about Germanic Kingship, and


d32a36 No.575951

>>575935

>I'd argue it did, by also raising it to state level and not merely village-on-village orgies of violence, raiding and ritual warfare.

But, as shown, that was not the case. If anything, it increased the violence, estranged the people, destroyed their tribal links and gave them a new excuse to fight - "muh heresy"

>many missionaries had been sent peacefully to the region and were martyred.

Yes, they just peacefully wanted to eradicate the local culture and subject the people to the authority of foreigners in Rome, Aachen or Jerusalem! :^)

Think about it, why so many Frankish "saints" of the 5th and 6th century were "martyred" by "bandits"? Hmm, maybe because the local populace hated them for a reason? Guess why the monasteries had to be fortified so the occupants wouldn't share the same fate as these saints…

The Saxons were actually long-time allies of the Franks, despite the religious differences (paid off very well to align with their enemies…). They only broke treaties with the Franks after they were martially imposed on them, in the hopes of retaining in their independence - you have to remember that the core of the Saxon leadership was betrayed and executed while parleying with Charlemagne (how christian…), so they weren't able to effectively coordinate and enforce treaties later on.

>it was indentured servitude

No, it was slavery. 10% of the population of the British isles were slaves up to the 1100's. The vikings had more of a indentured servitude system, because they didn't have slaves but thralls.

Need I to remind you that the Franks, or well, the jewish merchants under their protection, ran a huge slave trade of their brothers to muslim-held Spain through Verdun. Or that the very christian city of Venice was a major slave port of Europeans, including christians? Or that the greeks in the Byzantine Empire sold thousands of slaves to their arab enemies who attacked them YEARLY?

If you're going to talk about "vampires", do I need to remind you of all the "witch hunts" and judicialized killings of thousands of woman who kept their traditions, on charges of being "werewolfs" or "commuting with fairies"? Search for "Early Modern Witch Hunts"… Don't try to wash things. Muh "corrupt people who just so happens to be christians", muh "not true christianity™" - the institution of "nobility" and it's ownership of lands and sovereignty over the people that lived there enabled things like that.


f037e3 No.575980

>>575951

>But, as shown, that was not the case. If anything, it increased the violence, estranged the people, destroyed their tribal links and gave them a new excuse to fight - "muh heresy"

Again, considering the utter and indiscriminate violence with which the empires of Macedonia, Rome and Persia exerted over others, I think Christian violence is a drop in the ocean.

You also seem to imply that heresy was only a Christian thing and didn't exist prior to 33AD, and that no one ever fought over it.

>Yes, they just peacefully wanted to eradicate the local culture and subject the people to the authority of foreigners in Rome, Aachen or Jerusalem! :^)

Because Christian culture is superior.

Nice tie-in with "Jerusalem" trying to Jew up the religion for yucks, even though by the time most of the Germans were being converted it was a Muslim city.

>Think about it, why so many Frankish "saints" of the 5th and 6th century were "martyred" by "bandits"? Hmm, maybe because the local populace hated them for a reason? Guess why the monasteries had to be fortified so the occupants wouldn't share the same fate as these saints…

It's almost like the missionaries were telling the Germans things they didn't want to hear. You kind of betray the same sentiment in an earlier post when you call the pre-Christian era "freer" which in pagan terms translates to "how dare you tell me i cant have sex with who i want, when i want? how dare you tell me that i cant drink semen for magic rituals?"

>No, it was slavery. 10% of the population of the British isles were slaves up to the 1100's.

[citation needed]

>The vikings had more of a indentured servitude system, because they didn't have slaves but thralls.

Literally "It's not slavery when we do it". Thralldom is slavery.

And yeah like those female """thralls""" that were taken voluntarily to Iceland from Ireland or picked out from Rus' and sold to … Muslims …. oops!

>Need I to remind you that the Franks, or well, the jewish merchants under their protection, ran a huge slave trade of their brothers to muslim-held Spain through Verdun. Or that the very christian city of Venice was a major slave port of Europeans, including christians? Or that the greeks in the Byzantine Empire sold thousands of slaves to their arab enemies who attacked them YEARLY?

Wow people are wicked? Stop the presses!

And yes, you need to deal with this as a legitimate argument for Christianity. I never said a thing about slavers, murderers etc. not being "True Christians". In fact I believe that it validates the necessity of Christianity as an ethical and moral system which regards man as inherently sinful. All you do when you pull up these examples of evil conduct is to confirm to us what we try to tell you all the time. They, and we, are all sinners in need of conversion and repentance.

>muh witchery

>thinking muh persecution of witches is a thing limited only to Christianity

You have some serious gall to then drag up "muh witches" and "muh wimminz" in the same post where you easily brush over the mass rape of many Slavic, Celtic and fellow Germanic women.

Get real. Graeco-Roman culture that we get distinctions of white and black witches. Also,

>"consorting with demons it just folk-culture bro!"

lel


d32a36 No.575988

>>575980

>everyone else tried to impose their religion upon others

>christian culture is superior, thus all others should be erradicated

>are you trying to judaize the religion by pointing out to the city were Jesus died?

>repeating the provably false claim of hypersexuality and the "semen drink" low-effort falsehood

>tries to say christian slavery wasn't slavery, but thralldom, which wasn't chattel, was slavery!

>implying the vikings abused these woman, despite their marriage law, and did not marry these thralls

And I'm not saying they didn't commit any sorts of abuse (although they didn't with their own woman of their folk, because they had certain laws and rights, only with foreigners, when they acted as "lords") - but hey, I'm not trying to justify some "moral supremacy" due to people nominally-adhering to some universal dogma…

>implying any culture judicially killed hundreds thousands of woman and even children of their own people under made-up charges due to fanatism

>implying they "consorted with demons" and that the charges were not 90% made-up bullshit, 5% woman who looked creepy and 5% actual satanists/jews

Careful with those fallacies, lying is not very honorable…




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