/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>532100

I figured I should let the opponent speak first, so here is gotquestions support for eternal security

>https://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-security.html

>Jude 24 declares, "To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy." God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

The passage they cite is true, God is able to keep you from falling. However, they read what isn't there. It says "is able" not "will always". They further claim this means God is the only one doing anything here,

>Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

However, as we read just a few verses prior in Jude

>20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

So there is a clear statement here that God can keep you, it's certainly within His power, but you also have an obligation to keep with Him.

The next evidence they cite is

>John 10:28-29b. Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

And this is an excellent truth, no one can snatch them out of the Fathers hand. However, notice it does not say you cannot leave the hand, or that God can not kick you out, it says no one can snatch them out of the hand. God still has power over who is in His hand, and God can cut people off who were once grafted in, as we read in John 15:1-2, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.". God can still remove you.

The third they cite is

>Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are "sealed for the day of redemption." If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief.

Now, it says "in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption". This I agree with. It does not say they will certainly be redeemed. As we read in the next chapter of ephesians

>3 But immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is fitting among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness, nor silly talk, nor levity, which are not fitting; but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

A clear warning that again, salvation is conditional upon you walking the narrow path, and can be forfeited. For it "must not even be named among you", not "it cannot even be named among you" and we are assured that the immoral have no inheritance in the kingdom.

The next passage they cite is

>John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never "eternal" to begin with.

However the life is properly eternal, the ownership of that eternal life is not. This is a revocation of forgiveness recalling the parable of the unforgiving servant.

The final evidence they point to is

>The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39,…Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

However as they cite, what cannot separate you from Christ?

>nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

Emphasis mine. Now, as we read in John 15:2, the Father does properly remove branches? How can this be? As I've emphasized, nothing in creation can separate you, however God can, for God is not created. Similarly sin can, since sin is not created.

The primary thing here is that what matters is not just what is said, but what is not said. It's very easy to read a passage and feel it says one thing, but the truth can be that the passage just doesn't say it.

there isn't some silver bullet prooftext that's impossible for either side to reconcile.

there is an internally consistent way of reading scripture to make either view (but not both) fit.

that passage in hebrews isn't 'concrete evidence,' it can be lazily handwaved a number of different ways.

>they're still saved they just lose their reward in heaven xdd

>this sort of apostasy was only possible for hebrew christians pre-destruction of the temple, same with the unpardonable sin xd

>the author is speaking of a hypothetical that cannot happen, but is using it as a warning to press on xddd

>these people who fall away were associated with the church, but were never really saved to begin with xd

>To those who don't believe in OSAS, do you have any more concrete evidence that OSAS is not biblical?

The first thing one have to with discussion OSAS is to set straight terms i.e. what it does mean to be saved.

Traditional way on looking on matter is that salvation is dependent unto Grace. If you have grace, you are saved. And if you die in state of grace, you are saved forever. And about those, about those who preserved unto end, we can say that they were saved always.

But that does not mean, that all those, who were ever in state of grace are ultimatevlly glorified. Nor does it mean that those who were glorified, always been in state of grace.

St. John in his first letter warns us about Mortal sin. It's called mortal, because it's sin unto death. Spiritual death, for grace is life of God.

St. Peter in his second letter tells about those who were saved, and had the knowlege of God and yet did not preserve it and died unto death.

St. Paul speaks about it over and over. About how if we do not coniune in God's kindness we will be cast away. That if we do certian acts we will not enter eternal rest. About how ceremonies of the old wil cause us to not profit from Christ and to fall from Grace. He himself was afraid that he himself may be cast away until the very last months of his life.

And Christ himsel says we nead to abide in Him and bear fruit if we want to enter heaven.

Trent vs. White debate was very good exemple of failure of OSAS. White never actually anserws question "Can Christian lose salvation?". Insted he moves topic on area that have nothing to do with topic really and even then his argumentation can be used to disproove OSAS.

>>532100

Try romans 8:

>For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:38-39

Matthew 7:23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 1:13-14

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Acts 2:47

Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

>>532100

>keywords here obviously being "to renew them again unto repentance" assuming they have to repent again once more

Who are these "those who were once enlightened"? You have to keep in mind the whole context of Hebrews, why is it written. The entire time the author goes at great lengths to demonstrate the superiority of Jesus and the new covenant to Judaism and the old covenant, this because these Jews are being called back to them. This is why their apostasy is called newly crucifying the Son of God, because just as the Jews betrayed Him in the beginning, these apostates also betray Him. Repentance here should be understood as the "realm" of repentance, that is, the Church, since it is contrasted with the "realm" of the crucifixion of Christ.

The idea that a Christian can lose their salvation is in stark contradiction with the whole epistle's emphasis on the perfection of Christ and His sacrifce.

<The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

<But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus obtaining an eternal redemption.

Christ, unlike the old High Priests, does not fail in His work. Could any of them be said to have obtained eternal redemption? No, because their intercession and sacrifice failed. But if Christ can fail to save any of those who draw near, He is no better than them.

>>532169

But it's not about Christ failing. It's aboit us failing.

>>532172

We need Christ to save us because we fail. That's the point, His job is to save us despite our failures. So if our failure overrides His work then He does indeed fail.

>>532117

It doesn't matter what you can make fit with the text, all that matters is what the text itself actually teaches.

>>532173

>We need Christ to save us because we fail. That's the point, His job is to save us despite our failures. So if our failure overrides His work then He does indeed fail.

That's retarded. You just made God your personal wishmachine that HAVE to do what YOU want. On contrary, God says:

Thus says the LORD:

You say, "The LORD's way is not fair!"

Hear now, house of Israel:

Is it my way that is unfair, or rather, are not your ways unfair?

'''When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity, and dies,

it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die.'''

But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed,

and does what is right and just,

he shall preserve his life;

since he has turned away from all the sins that he has committed,

he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ecclesasties 3:18-21 and revelation 16:3 KJV

/thread

>>532427

>That's retarded. You just made God your personal wishmachine that HAVE to do what YOU want

<And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

<For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

<The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

<For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.

Of course, I just made God my personal wish machine, the bible clearly does not teach that Jesus came to save sinners, what was I thinking.

>>532481

<And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed,

and does what is right and just,

he shall preserve his life;

since he has turned away from all the sins that he has committed,

he shall surely live, he shall not die.

<For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

'When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity, and dies,

it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die.'

<The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed,

and does what is right and just,

he shall preserve his life;

since he has turned away from all the sins that he has committed,

he shall surely live, he shall not die.

<For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.

But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed,

and does what is right and just,

he shall preserve his life;

since he has turned away from all the sins that he has committed,

he shall surely live, he shall not die.

>Of course, I just made God my personal wish machine, the bible clearly does not teach that Jesus came to save sinners, what was I thinking.

For if God hath not spared the natural branches,

fear

lest perhaps he also spare not thee.

See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God,

if

thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

>>532100

(Jeremiah 32:37-41)

{37} "Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

{38} And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

{39} And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

{40} And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

{41} Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul."

>>532505

This is the essence of the perseverance of the saints.

>>532486

Why are you arguing that Jesus did not come to save sinners when that is what those verses explicitly say?

>>532509

He clearly agrees Jesus came to save sinners. Why don't you address his point, that that salvation can be lost?

>>532511

>He clearly agrees Jesus came to save sinners

No, he's clearly arguing against that idea. Here's how the discussion has gone

<If we can lose our salvation, Jesus fails

<no, Jesus doesn't fail because we sin, it's our fault

<Jesus came to save us despite our sins

<You're making God your personal wish machine

The only way his replies make any sense is if they're attacking what I said, namely that Jesus came to save sinners.

>“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.”

Notice that it says His sheep follow Him (they don't fall away or stop following Him), they shall never perish (duh, everlasting life), and no one will snatch them out of His hand (no one, including oneself). It's pretty clear, if there was a possibility of losing salvation, then that would happen every time because we are sinners. It's only by God's power that anyone is saved and endures to the end. Thankfully the God-breathed Scriptures say,

>"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

and

>he saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.

>Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

So in God's own words, it is impossible for those who have been saved to then perish. God fulfills His promises.

That says "tasted" not "saved". Also it says if you overcome(Believe Jesus is the Christ) then he won't blot your name out of the book of life.

“Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

“Hear then the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is ONLY TEMPORARY, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he FALLS AWAY. And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”

This parable alone should be sufficient to reject 'Once Saved, Always Saved.' It should also be enough to indicate that works and faith are intertwined with each other and that in order to be saved you must have both – like the two blades of scissors where, without one blade, the scissors would be useless.

>>532509

I am clarifying for you misunderstand Paul. For Paul does not go against God:

But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed,

and does what is right and just,

he shall preserve his life;

since he has turned away from all the sins that he has committed,

he shall surely live, he shall not die.

>>532514

<If we can lose our salvation, Jesus fails

>no, Jesus doesn't fail because we sin, it's our fault

<Jesus came to save us despite our sins

>If we turn away from our sins and acept him and not "turning the grace of our Lord God into riotousness, and denying the only sovereign Ruler, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

<No, God saves sinner

>If they turn from sin, yes

<No

>You're making God your personal wish machine, who even though said that we must turn from evil to have life, will give you life if we abide in evil

>Yes

This is how disccusion went.

>>535993

Overcome. Finite action. If you will be overcoming for all of your life and yet fail and do not overcome at end, he will not confess you before Father, sed contra, he will say to you "depart from me" and he will blot out your name out of the book of life (and fact that he can is alone enough to disprove OSAS)

>>536052

>he will say to you "depart from me" and he will blot out your name out of the book of life

Why did you remove some of his words? Post the full verse, please.

Matthew 7:23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

>I never knew you

>>536052

Fo you even know what "overcome" even means? Here I'll help you.

1 John 5

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 21:7

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 3:5

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Galatians 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 3

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Romans 4

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

>>536054

>Matthew 7:23

>Why did you remove some of his words? Post the full verse, please.

It's about those who built upon sand and did not hold fast unto commandment and did not overcome when "the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they were beat upon".

>I never knew you

Your understanding of this is incorrect, for it it was then you would have to deny that 2 Peter 2 is part of Scripture for it says clearly

20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.

21 For it had been better for them not to 'have known the way of justice, than after they 'have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.

22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

>>536091

>1 John

…Who says that we must keep away from sins for without we are not abide in Christ and that there is Sin that Kills i.e. keeps us away from Son who is Life?

Yeah, not OSAS reading here.

>Revelation 21

…Who says that there are people who will not enter heaven if they sin and that equals overcoming here with keeping faith unto end times and do not fail into possession of Dragon i.e. Sin?

Yeah, not OSAS reading here.

>Revelation 3

…Who says that bishop of Sardis was alive but now are dead, and that he and whole of his church must observe things commanded and do penance and if they do not they will perish?

Yeah, not OSAS reading here

>Galatians 3:26

Nothing in accordance to topic but when we are at Galatians, in there Paul said that he is afraid that he labored in vain for they made void of Christ, they fell from life, the Christ shall profit nothing if they contiune in Sin and that they are in need of Christ forimngin them again. Useing Galatians to proove OSAS is like useing Sulphuric Acid as an eyesalve

>1 John 3

Again, nothing about overcoming. But he does says in this very chapter that we stop to be abide in Christ if we Sin. So we lose our salvation. Well guesses what, you really like Sulphuric Acid.

>Romans 4

Nothing about overcoming yet again. But since you like Sulphuric Acid, have some Roman one

21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.

22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Also, on Romans 4. Contrary to you, Paul and Romans knew what he quoted. Psalm 31

I have acknowledged my sin to thee, and my injustice I have not concealed. I said I will confess against myself my injustice to the Lord: and thou hast forgiven the wickedness of my sin.

>>536108

>2 Peter 2

>False prophets

He never knew them.

1 Corinthians 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.