972805 No.16880801[Last 50 Posts]
<Could someone please explain to me why this bullshit hasn't changed an ounce in the past 40 years that video game RPGs have existed?
One of the problems I always have with RPGs is that the numbers seem like a trivial concept in the long run. All you really have to do is just make sure that your character has the higher number than the opponent, and you win? And, the only time that this isn't true is when you have the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" game mechanic that is classes/types (Fire burns grass, axes beat swords, etc.). Whenever I play an RPG, THIS seems to be the one concept that prevents me from actually enjoying the damn thing, with the only placebo to be had is when it's an ARPG because, then, I'm actually doing something besides just watch the numbers tick away.
Why do such extensive stats systems exist with such arbitrary information when it doesn't really effect the actual gameplay?
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813efc No.16880805
>>16880801
>Not just ignoring the bullshit numbers that don't do anything at all
Maybe you should try getting a job and a gf.
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a56c16 No.16880809
>>16880805
Get the hell outta here Denton.
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f237ee No.16880839
All RPGs are based on D&D and that had stats.
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a62e86 No.16880845
Because good ones use them to differentiate characters/classes/builds and have purposefully imbalanced characters like glass cannons with high offense, and low defense or front line fighters with awesome spells that only have enough MP to cast them once or twice.
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27df66 No.16880852
>>16880801
I like when my numbers become bigger numbers
That's literally it
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27df66 No.16880854
>>16880845
>awesome spells that only have enough MP to cast them once or twice
Somehow I hardly ever see that
Summoner and summoning could easily be that, but what normally happens is that the best summon is 40/999 mp rather than 300/999
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7a16f7 No.16880855
>>16880801
One of the problems I always have with chess is that the numbers seem like a trivial concept in the long run. All you really have to do is just make sure that you have more material and better positioning than the opponent, and you win? And, the only time that this isn't true is when you have the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" game mechanic that is openings/tactics (e5 beats f3, two rooks beats a rook and a king, etc.). Whenever I play a chess game THIS seems to be the one concept that prevents me from actually enjoying the damn thing, with the only placebo to be had is when it's a blitz chess game because then,, I'm actually doing something besides just watch the numbers tick away.
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a0e21a No.16880856
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71fe0d No.16880863
>>16880801
Min Maxing to do 1337 deeps.
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c15e10 No.16880866
>>16880801
More numbers means more damage, and it gives you the notion of progress. It's something of an electric form of bodybuilding: you do an activity that requires no actual skill but it makes your muscles bigger so you can lift heavier objects. You don't NEED to deadlift three hundred pounds but it makes some people happy when they can. Go do some electric jumping jacks since that's clearly your preference.
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a62e86 No.16880871
>>16880854
>Somehow I hardly ever see that
Breath of Fire 2 was the one I was thinking of. One of the party members has like 30 something MP at end-game while their lowest cost spell costs 17. It actually fits her character, since she expresses interest in learning magic on multiple occasions but doesn't have a characterization that lends itself to study.
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c15e10 No.16880873
>>16880871
you could just say shes dumb as shit you wouldnt be wrong
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a62e86 No.16880896
>>16880873
When playing with the retranslation I never got any indication she was of lower than average intelligence, just an impatient hot-head.
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a5e56e No.16880898
>>16880801
Numeral math is a vital component of everything in the universe, including fun
>All you really have to do is just make sure that your character has the higher number than the opponent, and you win?
No, of course not. Logic is also vital.
Sage for bad thread.
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9f5fdc No.16880900
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04f1fa No.16880905
>>16880900
Work online, bro! Corona-chan is your only girlfriend.
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9f5fdc No.16880918
>>16880905
Maybe you should work online, in a body bag.
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c994de No.16880920
>>16880801
>All you really have to do is just make sure that your character has the higher number than the opponent, and you win?
Not always, and this is where poison, paralysis and death spells come into play. Having equipment that assists you in this area instead of your stats is the sign of a good rpg, in my opinion. One of the things most overlooked in modern rpgs is the need for exploration and discovery of items and equipment. It has gotten really bad. I want to blame crafting mechanics and skill trees but even the stories are really bland likely due to required inoffensive content so journos and cuck sjws looking to get offended or gatekeep for power. Maybe it is a combination of both, however, I have taken the odd route of playing simpler arpgs from Soldak and adult and non adult rpgmaker games to get my fix, some of which are fairly good despite the super old classic snes days type look and play.
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9e1d63 No.16880923
>>16880801
>Whenever I play an RPG, THIS seems to be the one concept that prevents me from actually enjoying the damn thing, with the only placebo to be had is when it's an ARPG because, then, I'm actually doing something besides just watch the numbers tick away.
Honestly, playing action-oriented games with RPG stats tend to give me that feeling of "watching numbers go down" more than actual RPGs. Like in Borderlands, the enemies don't put up much of a fight but they're all bullet sponges so I just feel like I'm sitting there waiting 'till a number hits zero. Though I guess that's more because it's boring than the numbers. I mean, if you think about it, most games have numbers for damage values and enemy health but they're just hidden or represented by bars, unless it's a game where everything dies in one hit.
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4950ed No.16880950
>>16880896
In the original translation everyone sounds retarded though
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7abf2d No.16880975
>>16880801
Swords beat axes, though.
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c994de No.16880978
>>16880975
Yes, keep thinking that.
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b083d5 No.16880998
>>16880801
>the only time that this isn't true is when you have the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" game mechanic that is classes/types (Fire burns grass, axes beat swords, etc.)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you've never played an RPG that wasn't made by Nintendo.
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dcdefd No.16881003
>plays ARPGs
<doesn't understand stats, builds
>>16880855
Yes. That is chess. And war. Positioning matters. Utilizing strength of units, from pawns to whatever, to their best ability. Taking out an objective. Sacrifice and tempo can pull out a victory from what was otherwise a loss.
>>16880998
Think you might be right.
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f237ee No.16881018
>>16880896
She doesn't know to wear pants, though. That's pretty dumb.
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27ce15 No.16881496
Payday 2s rpg mechanics really should be the staple among rpg systems as your base stats stay the same even when you level up and your enemies health stays the same as well. Muh stats only figure into skill sets that are (usually) passively activated by doing certain things. Like how when you are a medic (while reviving someone), you take less damage when you are doing this activity. It also alters carry weights, the ability to use different equipment, charisma, etc. This is how an rpg SHOULD be done. But, how it is often done is by nonsensically by increments, increasing base stats by every level to hide the fact that the enemies are just damage sponge brainlets. And the result? People (no matter how skilled they actually are) have no chance whatsoever of killing enemies at certain levels above them because your enemy had more defense than attack. But, in rpgs NOT like this, people actually have the opportunity to kill anybody even if they are an incredibly low level. Which is exactly why traditional rpgs are complete garbage!
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27ce15 No.16881501
>>16881496
than *your attack
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074165 No.16881525
>>16880801
Reminder that new M&L never ever.
Then again series topped with BiS
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7618bf No.16881669
>>16881496
I've never played Payday 2, but that sounds pretty good. Too bad it's attached to some shit game. However, a system like that could still prevent you from killing certain enemies by making them require certain equipment that is unlocked later, and games like Dark Souls which do leveling up based on stats still allow you to beat enemies even at level 1.
Neither system is better than the other, it's just how the system is designed.
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27ce15 No.16881684
>>16881669
>Attached to some shit game
>Admits he never even played it
The only thing that is shit about Payday 2 is how the dlcs were handled, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the gameplay itself. And no, you cannot beat Dark Souls without leveling up. That isnt even possible nor can you beat any enemy at level 1.
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5755ea No.16881691
>>16880905
>>16880918
I've got some good news for both of you.
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7618bf No.16881732
>>16881684
Microtransactions make any game shit.
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5d2bd7 No.16881739
Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16881684
>And no, you cannot beat Dark Souls without leveling up
There are people who speedrun it at lvl 1, and even those that play with only shields, instead of swords or axes.
Here's the last video from a series of let's plays where the guy completes the game at SL1.
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7618bf No.16881740
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c06d19 No.16881753
"skilled" RPG fans are proof that the system is adhoc garbage to prevent casual players from getting stuck as they can often beat games with minimal leveling.
in a weird way this broken design makes it only fun for people that want to exploit the game mechanics using obscure tricks.
there is barely any gameplay / narrative integration when it comes to stats, only when characters are introduced do their stat points make sense plot-wise.
often many stats aren't even used in battle calculations.
it might have made sense in DnD or early CRPGS like Ultima/Wizardy but the nips just ran with it because it creates the illusion of depth.
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0d6a51 No.16881755
>>16881684
Nigger I just beat Dark Souls less than a year ago on a SL1. It's fucking easy as hell, too. The only problems you start facing are the DLC fights because they have fuckhuge lightning and fire/chaos resistance.
>Pyromancer
>FAP ring
>ring that gives you +1 spell slots
>chaos fireball/storm
>lightning handaxe +10
>chaos reinforced club +5
It's basically cheating at that point.
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210838 No.16881775
>>16881753
Most proper RPGs use stats to calculate damage for abilities, or add bonuses. Others its just fluff or fake numbers. Shame they hide how much stats affect abilities under the hood or behind some pointlessly long logarithmic function because "muh diminishing return", especially so in MMORPGs so people can't stack shit and 1 shot god on a whim.
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7618bf No.16881779
>>16881775
>diminishng returns require pointlessly long logarithmic functions
Just increasing a state by a percent will have a diminishing return.
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210838 No.16881781
>>16881779
There are a lot of things that can be simplified down to a straight forward function, but do you honestly think pajeet and co want to program something simple and be done with their job in 10 minutes?
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27ce15 No.16881786
>>16881740
>>16881739
I stand corrected. But, the vast majority of stat driven rpgs are not like this. If your attack is lower than your opponents defense, the most of the time you will do 1 point of damage maximum (or 2 for critical hits).
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7618bf No.16881790
>>16881781
Yes, because they can't understand complex math. Their shitty code will be as a result of cookie cutter code that is inefficient, but can brute force anything, not long complex math.
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27ce15 No.16881792
>>16881753
>exploit the game mechanics using obscure tricks
>exploit
Thats a loaded word right there. Rpgs you are talking about only require you to level up and essentially one hit kill anything instead of using wit and craftiness. At a certain point, all you have to do is just slash people and ignore the fact that you are getting hit without even trying to avoid/diminish those hits because they do nothing to you lol (even WITHOUT armor). Just face it, rpgs like this are only made this way to include fagy mage builds. So essentially all you do is farm certain enemies until the enemies (that are a higher level than you) become easy af. Neither of which is hard and is just tedious and boring
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27ce15 No.16881796
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bd1e0a No.16881803
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27ce15 No.16881872
You know, mages could be interesting if they had recharges on the SPELLS THEMSELVES (for the weak shit) and spells that can only be used a limited amount of times with limited slots; magic slots of which cant be changed in middle of combat instead of relying on a mana supply and autistically just upping the stats every time you level up. It will make you feel like you have to be strategic with your spells instead of spamming drinking potions. This would be cool if you could if you could combine it with base stats (such as health) being unchanging and intelligence also being unable to increase in damage with each level. Basically, different spells will do different things (instead of just essentially damage) such as: slowing down your opponent, throwing off mages/archers aims, paralysis for a short time, debuffs, tripping, throwing, and of course (damage wise) chain damage, putting down semi-permanent trap doors until the battle has ended, poisons, pierce armor, and burn damage (all powers of which do some damage besides paralysis). Of course, if you run out of spells you can always rely on your shield and dagger. This in my opinion would fix being a mage so that raw stats (health in particular) can stay unchanged and so that anybody can kill amybody.
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210838 No.16881976
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c06d19 No.16882037
>collect all horseshoes in gta:sa; luck stat maxed
>nothing changes, just get some weapon spawns
I guess some stats are just there to use your curiosity to lure you deeper into the game
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87a990 No.16882049
>This entire thread
I have no idea why I even bother with this fucking board anymore
Why is everyone here so stupid holy shit
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b09097 No.16882073
>>16882037
If your luck wasn't high enough your PS2 would brick. Fucking Rockstar.
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064104 No.16882078
>>16881872
You're literally describing how magic works in Dungeons and Dragons, and personally, I think the system is trash because the first thing people do to "balance magic with melee" is disallow resting, which prevents casters from being able to recharge spells. Even with resting allowed any time there are no enemies nearby, wizards are only useful as buffers due to how horrifically limited their daily spell slots are. If you're going to have that level of faggotry, just don't have magic in the game in the first place.
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c15e10 No.16882108
>>16882049
if we were as smart as you we would all be faggots
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864d72 No.16882209
>>16882078
>enable resting
Actually, what I am saying is whenever a new battle (whenever you are pursued by enemies) is engaged all of your magic powers are renewed. So there would be no need to rest to recharge them. In fact, the way I described it I think it could be the most powerful shit ever in a game (and would still be a glass canon) but it would be a balanced glass canon. How I am descibing it, is that you use powers in parralel with other powers. Like using a throw/trip into a trap for massive damage. Of course, maybe that wouldnt be enough. As most rpgs stand now, mages can often demolish anyone (on about the same level) in a 1-3 hits from long range if they keep upgrading the intelligence stat. Making most rpgs too heavily favored for the mage class.
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4d654c No.16882213
>>16882049
>A tread does not believe exactally what I think is right
>They are so dumb
Is the diet of straight cum causing your brain damage or where you born with it?
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ffb3b8 No.16882222
>>16880801
You really sound like you've barely played RPGs or only grind to win any fight. If bigger numbers was all you needed then you could grind to win every RPG, which isn't the case for any moderately difficult RPG (or you can't even grind). The whole point of stats is to make it so your character(s) emulate certain strengths. Depending on the stats you usually get access to certain classes that have their own pros and cons. Stats are usually tied to skills or at least the class is. However the stats will have influence on how strong/effective the moves are. A good RPG can have the player invest in multiple stats to get certain builds/sub classes out of many different skills and abilities given to the player. Like a warrior class that invests in strength will make more use out of powerful single hit attacks. However a warrior that invests into agility and dexterity may attack more often and make use of multi-hit attacks to dish out more DPS. However he is locked out of many other useful moves because his strength is too low to make them practical.
RPGs are about builds and good decision making. If you know the game inside out you can beat certain games without even leveling. You could beat RPGs, that revolve around a balanced team, solo if you play smartly. If you build your team properly and make good decisions in battle you will never have to grind. A difficult RPG will make it so grinding won't save you from a hard boss fight. CRPGs also have it to where stats influence non combat decisions and can help you avoid fights, gain access to certain quests, and a bunch of other stuff. Dungeon Crawlers in particular have many skills that don't revolve around combat.
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864d72 No.16882237
>>16882222
>If bigger numbers was all you needed then you could grind to win every RPG
Which is true for the vast majority of rpgs BTW. In fact, thats how most rpg games emulate difficulty, by making higher level enemies unbeatable.
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7abf2d No.16882298
>>16882237
Objectively untrue. In the overwhelming majority of RPGs, grinding is a crutch for people too stupid to figure out an efficient build or strategy. It's the gorilla strategy. And that's saying a lot considering how piss easy most RPGs are.
If you need to grind, you're a brainlet.
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ffb3b8 No.16882350
>>16882237
It's a very poor way of handling difficulty too. A good RPG would give enemies unique abilities, dynamic enemy team builds, traps and enemies that counter certain builds, and bosses that can't be brute forced due to various circumstances. Like a boss that constantly lowers your accuracy while regenerating. If you don't increase your accuracy, remove the debuff, or lower his evasion, then you'll never deal enough damage to win. Just nuking the enemy doesn't work.
>>16882298
The problem is that it still works with a lot of RPGs. It's essentially turning the game into easy mode. That is assuming you don't go with a broken build/strategy that also breaks the game. Like spamming Cheer and Mix in Final Fantasy X trivializes most boss fights. It comes to the point where people make challenge runs to get some difficulty from these games. Like a no item run.
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000000 No.16882947
>>16880801
Because some of us like them. So, they stay.
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3fd377 No.16882995
So what are some good RPGs that don't do this or are much less centered around it? I've only ever been able to find these types of games by chance, but every time I come across them I crave more. The most recent I can think of being Fear & Hunger.
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864d72 No.16883425
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1d8d54 No.16884859
>>16880801
It's there so you can choose whether you want to grind and overlevel yourself or play efficiently and play the system to your advantage, and to create tradeoffs so you can't have everything maxed out.
also pointless numbers to brag that you maxed them out.
>just make sure that your character has the higher number than the opponent, and you win?
it's not that simple. there are elements and resistances, status effects and resistances, buffs/debuffs, piercing attacks, enemies having more HP than PCs, accuracy, percentage attacks, exploiting AI, etc.
>>16882222 (checked)
>You could beat RPGs, that revolve around a balanced team, solo if you play smartly.
That's great for repeat playthroughs when you already know the game inside out and sank considerable hours into it, but completely useless when you're just getting started and trying to find your way around.
>>16881792
>instead of using wit and craftiness
If by that you mean spamming tattle/scan/libra, or failing that, casting offensive spells and comparing damage numbers on every new enemy/boss, then save-scumming to recoup lost MP/HP/items (or looking up shit on a FAQ/wiki if you're a lazy faggot) then that's anything but. I'd call that an improvement over pure grinding, but more or less still brainless (and cheating if you use guides).
>>16882350
>enemies that counter certain builds
This is one of my pet peeves. What if you have a party with pitiful fire magic and physical damage and face enemies that are resist all elements but fire magic?
It reminds me of playing Diablo 2 not an RPG but point still stands with a sorceress and facing enemies immune to my element. Yes, there are ways to break them but you need to get a fuckton of resist reduction (100%+) which will stop you in your tracks. And yes, you're supposed to dual or tri-spec with a sorc, but it isn't wasn't possible to respec and you don't start at max level so expect to do scratch damage, and when you're first playing a game you're supposed to figure shit out on your own (with some help from NPCs), not brainlessly look up a FAQ with all the answers.
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af5ff6 No.16884865
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48b95d No.16884910
>>16884859
Part of the viability of a build, though, is whether or not it's actually viable. If there are many monsters that counter it, then it's not; if there are just a few monsters that counter it, then you really ought to have an alternate strategy for dealing with them. That could be running away. Being surprised by an enemy that needs one specific build to beat, though, is something that old and/or shitty RPGs do more often than modern ones, because it's bad form to essentially tell the players that they can't progress if they didn't specifically prepare for a situation that wasn't foreshadowed in any way. There's an argument to be made that a player should be prepared to deal with all these unusual situations (What if I absolutely needed fire magic/ice magic/lightning magic for a boss? Better have a specialist in each. What if there were to be an anti-magic dungeon? Better have some bows for the mages. What if the rogue has to do a dungeon all by himself? Better make sure I level up his stealth a few ranks even though it's useless most of the time) but having to read the developers' minds too often or devolving into trial-and-error gameplay are good ways for games to piss players off. Also, most players probably aren't going to be as careful as they could be, even if the genre is nominally all about planning ahead. Well, the genre was in the past all about planning ahead, because there wasn't much else to do: old RPGs had just as little story and gameplay as old action games.
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a713c8 No.16884943
>>16880801
>hasn't changed an ounce in the past 40 year
But thats bullshit. Best RPGs dont have those stats from DND, that was needed only for tabletop gaming.
Skyrim, Witcher, FF15 are good examples. It's just most devs are quite retarded and so are gamers.
Then there's 'muh old school' meme, reddit auditory loves so much. Yeah I enjoyed Fallout1, but I would rather have it without isometric camera and shitty turn-based combat. FPS or TPS form was right decision, problem is bethesda can't make it right no matter what. Yet even FO4 is infinitely better than that nuWasteland or Pillows everyone jerks on. I'm not even comparing it to Witcher.
Party RPGs with plenty of stats are now taken place in various mobile gacha games. And rightfully so. Because it's primitive, there's no gameplay. If stats are deciding everything then auto-combat is a way to go.
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4950ed No.16885261
>>16884943
>FF15
>good example for anything
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6571ba No.16885274
>>16884943
>Skyrim
>Witcher
>FF15
>Good in any way
>Fallout 3-4 FPS shit good in any way or shape.
>Party RPGs with plenty of stats are now taken place in various mobile gacha games. And rightfully so.
>What are Persona 5, Bravely Default, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Divinity Orginal Sin 1-2, Octopath Traveller, Underrail, Age of Decadence, etc.
Are you being disingenuous on purpose or am I being baited? Hell, even action RPGs like Dragon's Dogma, Monster Hunter and the like still use stats. If anything, now too many games that aren't RPGs have decided to add "stats" into their games in a very poorly thought out manner, see things like Borderlands, Rage and such. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't FF15 and Skyrim still use stats, like, literally HP, MP/Mana, Strength, Resistances and the like?
>Because it's primitive, there's no gameplay. If stats are deciding everything then auto-combat is a way to go.
If an RPGs is good, there is no way in fucking hell that you can win without using strategy designed around your builds and the enemies strengths and weaknesses, as well as managing resources and balancing taking risky actions with high rewards with playing it safe.Finally, RNG usually means that you can gain a sudden advantage or be fucked in an instant and have to adapt to win. The people that use this criticism against RPGs are those that suck at them and relayed on grinding their way to victory instead of learning the mechanics of the games.
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bd8c8b No.16885282
>>16880801
In theory, it should matter for different builds, but it's funny simple games keep using convoluted stats like that. For example, Mario and Luigi only has 2 characters so there's so much you can do with the stats, while games like the original FF or FF3 do have 4 characters that can change jobs at will and each job affect stats differently. And then there are games like dark souls where stats do affect your character but it is mostly noticeable with large amount of points, or games like SOTN where leveling up is very very linear and items makes no difference whatsoever except which one is stronger.
I think it can be solved easily And I hope I can manage to do it when I finish my own game:^)
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bd8c8b No.16885284
>>16881786
You can still finish games even if you do 1 of damage. If the enemy has 13000 HP, you only need to hit it 13000 times. Don't underestimate autists, to this day I don't see the appeal of wanting to play games like Order of Ecclesia with lv cap in 1. It may be "harder", but it is also tedious as shit.
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42a8f2 No.16885287
>>16880900
Unatco or Savage.
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000000 No.16885336
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48b95d No.16885545
>>16885284
There's a difference, though, between something being technically possible if difficult (an accomplishment) and being an unintended playstyle. And with some turn-based RPGs you might not actually be able to win if you can't put out enough damage just because boss gimmicks or even just regular attrition could overwhelm your healing. Ultimately, a well-designed RPG shouldn't let you win literally every fight just by attrition, although I believe games should be generally winnable outside of outright stupidity on the player's part. You see devs work in fights with gimmicks like "boss instakills you after ten rounds" or "boss gets two attacks that are virtually certain to do more than half of your possible HP in damage" to force people to use alternate strategies than just beat-n-heal.
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bd8c8b No.16885587
>>16885545
I guess these are the kind of speedrunner faggots that abuse some game mechanics to break the game when they need to.
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48b95d No.16885614
>>16885587
I can sorta respect a person who autists about a game solely because they want to do it or because they want to show the world it's possible or how others can do it, but not as much when they do it so they can stick it up on a list somewhere just to compete. I mean to say that all of them ARE doing it for pride, so I don't know exactly what makes some of them acceptable and some not to me.
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1d8d54 No.16885767
>>16885274
>no way in fucking hell that you can win without using strategy designed around your builds and the enemies strengths and weaknesses
Problem is, to find out these you have to try shit at random til you find their weakness (rather than guess), then you reload your save, change equips/skills/party members and proceed to wipe the floor with enemies. Wow so strategic.
Point is, if your game relies on difficulty relies on (random) guessing and trial-and-error, and withholding information that has to be datamined from the game then it sucks. It's basically a guessing game. It also sucks if players can hit a hard wall (i.e. a state in which you can't progress and have to start from scratch). This is why RPGs tend to allow players to beat the game without investing themselves too much, especially since experiments can't be undone.
To give you a (simplified) example, imagine you have a squishy mage, and you can choose which stats to prioritize on each level-up. Do you choose INT to hit (a lot) harder and get more MP or do you raise DEF to cover for your weakness to avoid getting one shot? You alternate between DEF and INT and it works initially, but halfway through the game it's obvious you should have gone pure INT because you're still dying in a turn anyway and your damage output is mediocre, making fights last longer and the game significantly harder for yourself. There was no way to predict it would turn out like that, and no way to go back other than to start from scratch.
Now, if you're talking about NG+ or higher difficulties then whatever floats your boat since you've already played the goddamn game and know every skill, ability, dungeon, enemy, character's growth, gimmick, weakness, equip, etc.
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3f46e5 No.16885791
>>16885767
>some players are dumb niggers who can't figure out the concepts of "fire monsters are weak to ice" or "wizards should have more INT than STR"
>therefore the devs need to dumb down the game to the point that no tactics are required, and specializing to any meaningful degree is basically impossible
You are the cancer killing vidya.
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1d8d54 No.16885828
>>16885791
nice strawman
>"fire monsters are weak to ice"
What about ghosts or possessed armors? What about a run of the mill dragon, is that breath attack fire element or physical? What about a dinosaur? What about humans or elves? What about a cyclops? How do you determine status effect weaknesses? What in the case of bosses? Not so simple now is it. Thankfully, it's all one wiki search away and the game becomes easy mode, because difficulty hinges on you not knowing shit!
>"wizards should have more INT than STR"
I said DEF. Going full glass cannon is not always the best of strategies. Moreover, putting all your eggs in one basket doesn't always give the best results. A pure STR warrior may benefit from some SPD, or not.
>specializing
it's fun to specialize when you already know what you're doing, otherwise it sucks as some games punish you for raising the wrong stats or leveling up the wrong skills (which you wouldn't know until the moment of truth). Thankfully, this is a moot point in plenty of games because remedying screw-ups is as simple as changing class or equipped abilities/items and you can max all skills.
>tactics
I never complained about that. If you wanna MP drain the boss, or turn the boss's spells against itself go ahead.
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1512aa No.16885966
>>16885767
>Problem is, to find out these you have to try shit at random til you find their weakness (rather than guess), then you reload your save, change equips/skills/party members and proceed to wipe the floor with enemies. Wow so strategic.
First, this is literally how every single game work in the end. You fight a boss, it most likely kill you the the first tries, you learn the best strategy to beat it, and from now on you can wipe the floor with him. Second, often time most bosses are quite hard because they lack evident weaknesses. The player must use develop an strategy to defeat an enemy. Take games like Nocturne for example, Persona 5. Bosses are often time immune to elements and weaknesses, so in turn you must try and use what skills and demons you have to overcome them. Third, you seem to forget the turn-to-turn decision making that can make you win or lose. Finally, if you try random shit to find enemy weaknesses instead of actually fighting in a way that allows you to survive while still "try random shit" is more your fault than anything else. Buffing defenses, immunities, playing defensively while poking the enemy are possible strategies.
>Point is, if your game relies on difficulty relies on (random) guessing and trial-and-error, and withholding information that has to be datamined from the game then it sucks.
Why the fuck would you need to datamine a game to beat it? Just play, experiment and learn. You can beat every RPG, no matter how hard it by paying attention, no need to know how each damage formula works in the game. Or do you think people were unable to beat RPGs before the widespread of internet, and often time being quite good at them?.
>This is why RPGs tend to allow players to beat the game without investing themselves too much, especially since experiments can't be undone. To give you a (simplified) example, imagine you have a squishy mage, and you can choose which stats to prioritize on each level-up. Do you choose INT to hit (a lot) harder and get more MP or do you raise DEF to cover for your weakness to avoid getting one shot? You alternate between DEF and INT and it works initially, but halfway through the game it's obvious you should have gone pure INT because you're still dying in a turn anyway and your damage output is mediocre, making fights last longer and the game significantly harder for
This is too oversimplified and as an argument, it is really poor. Because if a game is well designed, unless you do some retarded shit, you will be able to beat it if your build makes some lick of sense. Furthermore, often times skills are even more important that stats, which is the reason Lvl 1 runs exists, sometimes even as game modes like Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy XII Zodiac Age for example. In SMT and Persona series, again, a Mage with Concentrate is more powerful than one with higher stats, or a mage with powerful buffs and debuffs is incredible useful, even if their stats are shit, not talking about protective skills and spell that can null damage. In some games your stat distribution may not be as important as your equipment, like Dragon's Dogma. Sure, if you do something stupid like giving too little INT to your Mage, STR to your Fighter and DEX to your Rogue, you may find yourself unable to progress, but this is hardly the games fault, specially when many RPG also have set in stone stats for each character.
To add to this, many RPGs DO allow you to fix your mistakes one way or another, specially modern ones. Divinity Original Sin and Pathfinder: Kingmaker, both have optional respect options that allows you to remade your character completely, including your looks. Any game with a job system allows you to remade your party any moment you need, see Bravely Default, Final Fantasy 3 and 5 and others, as you yourself stated.
>Thankfully, this is a moot point in plenty of games because remedying screw-ups is as simple as changing class or equipped abilities/items and you can max all skills.
>There was no way to predict it would turn out like that, and no way to go back other than to start from scratch.
I guess you must also hate Survival Horrors or any game with any kind of resource management, as you just don't know what will happen so you waste your items and then find a boss. What the fuck is wrong with having to play a game first to become proficient at it? You complain too that action games do not teach you a boss' moves and openings before fighting it? Specially old ones where running out of lives meant starting over from scratch. For fuck sake, most RPGs aren't even that hard, if you find yourself getting stuck on them perhaps they aren't your genre of games.
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039f31 No.16886207
>>16880801
Potential for character customization for different strategies and play styles.
So when were you diagnosed with autism, anon?
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9683a5 No.16886592
>>16880801
smoothbrain mutt detected
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0586a4 No.16900189
to make it an actual RPG you stupid faggot
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747270 No.16900239
Most numerical stats are a concept from when games were played on paper and had to provide an objective framework for player imagination with nothing but writing and dice
Vidya used these concepts because those abstractions were a shortcut to making "simulated" systems in a time when we literally could not simulate those systems effectively, and they've stuck ever since
Outside of a few basic things, there aren't many stats that couldn't be actually represented faithfully in the game world with no abstractions, it would just require devs to not be so lazy
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39c943 No.16903554
>>16880801
Stats are not the only thing that go into performance. There is still all of the decision making that goes into it. You can often see people that are really good at particular RPGs go into hard fights under-leveled and still do better than shitties that grind because they know how to build stats and equipment for the task at hand along with having superior knowledge on how to best spend their turns and resources.
In terms of RPGs, Superstar saga actually has a pretty streamlined stat system. There's no real overlap in the function of each and their function is pretty straight forward, except for stache which determines crit chance and gets you discounts in shops. If you don't understand a system of customizable progression made for babies, maybe you should reevaluate the kinds of games you play.
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47af5e No.16903581
>>16884943
>FPS or TPS form was right decision
Wrong.
FPP and to a lesser extent TPP makes braindead retards like yourself even less capable of disconnecting player characters from themselves because
>hurr durr, why can't my lvl 1 character with gun handling not leveled up at all snipe everything like in cowwadooty
Application of certain skills in an RPG shouldn't rely on player's actual input, especially lockpicking, hacking (most of the time the minigame will be braindead and will outstay its welcome) shooting and aiming outside of making a command and decision what to aim at (obviously eyes for crits becuase enemies never surrender so killing them is the only solution)
And it's a waste of time and effort to make stuff like low-skill character forgetting safety and shooting his foot off, misaligning sights, not reloading proficiently, not managing recoil, using the wrong zero in only to have swarms of retards post everywhere
>y can't I aim and kill everything in sight
>>16881691
Okay?
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