/v/ - Video Games

>>16238804

Best shooting game that also has some semblance of loot mechanics I can think of is STALKER. But STALKER doesn't have any of the traditional RPG elements, it's more of a shoot n scavenge. I'm not sure what kind of purpose a lot of traditional RPG stats would have in an FPS game. Things like str and dex seem like they would just be requirement stats, although I could see them affecting things like recoil control and reload speed. A lot of RPGs tend to have a system where increasing a certain stat, say intelligence, also increases damage with a certain weapon type, for example, wands. I don't see how this would translate over to a shooter game though, since it doesn't make much sense for a gun to arbitrarily deal more damage because the player has better stats. It would make more sense for the stats to give the player some other benefit that complements different playstyles. For example, maybe have certain stats make it easier for the player to be stealthy and shoot more accurately, while other stats increase the player's ability to move quickly while wearing heavy body armor, allowing them to play more aggressively.

>>16238850

>but certainly the OP will be criticised for making a shitty introduction

I don't make threads often so my op wasn't the best.

>>16238832

>str and dex

Dex could be better reload or handling and str could be better handling recoil heavy shit like shotguns or machine guns.

>>16238804

New Vegas?

I wish there were more of them. To this day, modded Fallout 4 is still the best experience I've had. Once you increase the damage output and remove the broken weapon damage leveling, it becomes a satisfying shooter. The weapons have relatively good animations and actual recoil unlike Borderlands.

>>16238832

Leveling should reduce weapon recoil and sway, and affect reloading animation. I think the combination of skill points and perks like Skyrim would work the best for this kind of game. For example, a low dexterity character will reload their half-empty revolver by unloading the empty shells one by one, a high dex character without perks would do the same animation but played at a faster speed, but a high dexterity character with all the reloading perks unlocked would reload it by dropping all the shells altogether and jamming a speedloader in within a second. Another example, a low level character woudn't know how to shoot enemies at a long distance while a high level characters would have the ability to accurately calculate the distance of the target and projectile drop.

>>16238872

Kinda but I'm talking about something that really fuses the two into something that the current shallow experiences fail to do, such as

>Destiny that wants to be Halo and BL but manages to fail and ends up a watered down version of the two

>Division a total fucking mess of game in general that does nothing new

>Anthem a game that took the worst of Warframe, BL, Destiny and Division then made them even fucking worse

What I'd like is a game that makes me think about what stat types would work for certain gun types.

RPG statistics in FPS games often lead to bullet sponge enemies in general. This is probably due to the fact that half of the game is stat management to get the most damage output rather than good gun play. Modern Fallout (3 and later) as an FPS where RPG stats matter lead to lackluster gun play in favor of stat checks and rolls to be how you damage enemies.

In my experience games with less RPG stats the better. Even then I say it would be better to focus more on the variety of abilities and mobility of your character rather than the numbers of the guns themselves. Guns are suppose to be one shot kill weapons anyway. So I prefer shoot and loots having a variety of playstyles with your character that can mutate and evolve with customizing gear rather than have them based on experience level damage output.

I'll provide an example of an armored shock trooper versus an unarmored scout. The shock trooper has heavy bullet proof armor that deflects the inaccurate shots of machine gun and assault rifle fire. They are big guys who mop up light armored GI. However if they are ambushed by a sniper or commando with precision weapons that shoot in the armor weakspots then shock trooper is dead.

The scout is lightly gunned with a basic semi-auto rifle and pistol. His playstyle is mobility and being the eyes and ears for the team. Scouts are the more adventerous ones being the first to spot ambushers, and also being the first to get shot and killed. Scout's ability to relay information to the team and get out of fire quickly is what makes them vital to a unit's survival.

You can have role-playing based on your gear and layout without RPG stats. Depending on how many companions you have you can go for a militarized unit where everyone is min/max in their roles or a general jack-all mercenary band where everyone does a little bit of everything yet still have specialties in certain playstyles.

/v/ might like this kind of game. The question is will the lazy no-brain mass market buy it?

>>16238918

>The question is will the lazy no-brain mass market buy it?

Mass market normalfags can be weird as they'll eat up shit but sometimes they'll buy into hard games or complex titles, but to get to the question at hand I do think it could work if sold to it's targeted niche.

>>16238832

>traditional RPG stats

Weapon handling and accuracy.

using a simple 1-100 scale of skill in firearms would mean

>1

>literal noguns

>can't align sights properly

>reloading takes forever

>can't control recoil

>can't even hold the gun properly

>100

>gun god

>Can aim far beyond gun's effective range and minimize weather effects on shooting

>can reload anything in a flash

>superior recoil control

>aim techniques allow to aim faster and easier.

>>16238929

Essentially my idea of a loot and shoot would be to have a tactical mercenary shooter in modern feudalism. The goal is to go from a scavenger of battlefields to a private army with specialized soldiers. Loot will adjust according to the risk you take, and your skill level naturally. The more risk you take and survive like out smarting an entire brigade the more reward you get. Likewise increasing partners will decrease your personal risk, but still possibly increase the risk factor by having unskilled partners as liability. Of course when they die there's a liability penalty on rewards. So the social roleplaying will also be about picking rge best of the best, curating those who have potential to grow, and blacklisting shitters that don't turn a profit.

>>16238966

Another thing is the material or craftsmanship of the gun playing a role to it's overall handling

>Gun at the start of the game is a cheap scrap of junk

>Shoots poorly and jams more then the fucking space jam

>frame is weak

>handling is ass due to how the gun is designed

>Endgame gun is a work of sheer talent and skill of gunsmith

>Shoots high quality rounds and inner-workings provide a jam free experience

>Frame is strong and made from the best materials around

>handling is a total dream due to how well designed the gun is and if you have good stats it complements it even more

>>16238918

>In my experience games with less RPG stats the better

If you don’t like RPG mechanics you shouldn’t play RPGs

>You can have role-playing based on your gear and layout without RPG stats

Depends on what you mean by ‘RPG’. If you mean ‘like a tabletop’ then no. If you mean as in ‘Role-playing game’ then gear, stats and randomness are orthogonal. A VN is more an RPG than any lootershooter. If you mean ‘that kind of game I like that has certain elements’ then you should play those games and let people who enjoy some other types of ‘RPG’s play those. No need to homogenize the industry by removing things you don’t like. That’s what leftists do. If such games don’t really exist, >>>/agdg/ is that way

Only one worth playing is destiny

And thats only if you really like halo because you have to put up with so much shit from bungie and activision

Activision is gone now tho

Stay away from the division and anthem lo

>>16239174

>have great gameplay that improves on gaylo in every way

>have a Doom-tier level of enemies on screen at once

>keep bullet sponge enemies to a minimum, and even give you two dedicated weapon slots to take care of those

>the music is pretty good

>but everything else about the game is atrocious, every single thing

Thinking about what actually could've been is the worst.

>>16239307

Destiny is a tragedy as it could have been good.

>>16239165

I don't think there is a place for RPG statistics in first person shooters. Fallout 3 is Oblivion with guns which stats make sense in an RPG context. But Fallout/TES are about character building rather than gunplay. RPGs can be in first person. What OP is describing is bad loot 'em ups where enemies are bullet sponges and statistics don't matter outside of damage output and ammo capacity.

How do you translate stats to gunplay in an action FPS without making them arbitrary handicaps to aiming or strict dice rolls? Sure the same can be said with action RPGs. For the most part a lot of modern action RPGs drop randomness of accuracy/evasion checks in favor of expanded movesets, movement options, and sometimes gear checks to the point they are brawlers with levels.

Rather than having a personal core ability and check system it would be better to make few but essential stats for gunplay (accuracy, recoil, reload speed, etc.) then have level up abilities be firing, mobility, and utility skills with maybe a slight chance of bonuses for luck. Otherwise you may as well make everything calculated by dice and turn it into a stat based RPG that plays with FPS controls.

>>16238804

I think it can work. It would basically be Diablo but with guns.

That said my guess is that it's more related to balancing things correctly.

>>16239681

Wat

Destiny… heres what i think happened

first demos of it is what 3 games in that series were supposed to cut into

all the worldbuilding and content in the first demo is already done its just released in pieces and complete a decade latter

they fired the composer because he wasnt going to go along with cutting the game to pieces, rather wanted Halo like one game, and so they NDAd the shit out of him to silence, then fired him

all of this was ordered by Activision, original demo is just first version of incomplete game that got finished then destroyed

Destiny 2 went the same way, they finished the important parts, then cut it to pieces, thats why it was "rebooted"

>>16238966

Allow it to go negative for some interesting behavior.

>-1 randomly will drop gun when reloading

>-100 almost certain chance of shooting self in some manner

>>16238850

No worries guy, I'll come up with a bangin' thread and then this board will really get stimulated.

>>16239911

I like this.

Oh look another gay ass blogpost thread.

>>16238804

Honestly STALKER does well for the loot part but lacks on the RPG department, at least in the traditional way of stats and it's way more gear gated rather than needing stats for doing stuff.

Call of Chernobyl kinda expands on the rpg side by adding faction reputation system but thats it, honestly I would like to know about more games like these, or diablo-likes with guns, but they always fall short.

I always see these games how they never handle ammo kinds or different kinds of attachments, most of the time it's just bling and barely serves purpose.

A good austistic approach to guns would be able to craft everything from the stock to the barrel without being overbearing on needing to spend 20 hours looking for a special kind of material so you could try shit up, along with kinds of ammo and stuff like that, usually games like these with crafting included skip completely over the enjoyment of actually trying parts out and pads too much into the construction materials.

Warframe takes a more involved approach regarding on how you want your weapon to work based on mods rather than physical looks but falls flat when dealing with damage types, ie: one kind of damage being super good for most stuff and the other ones being niche at best and being useless for the rest of the game.

Or they go the borderlands way where you really have no control over the gun you can get so you'll end up grinding for nice gun rather than playing the game.

On top of that games like these have the issue that you may craft a weapon yourself but later on you'll find either the same gun you struggled to craft or a completely different and better gun that one you have, rendering the whole crafting part useless, along with level scaling which also fucks over most loot based game, see destiny, maybe you get a nice gun at early levels but past certain point the gun is utterly useless and you need to spend a hefty ammount of resources to keep it.

>>16241684

>along with level scaling which also fucks over most loot based games

This is one of the biggest issues as there can be a thing as too much loot so it makes me wonder if the dark souls approach to loot would work as there is a set number of gear but you can upgrade it in a number of ways.

>intentionally reducing the amount of creativity in the game's guns for an extra unnecessary layer of power progression

Stat creep in RPGs are a necessity and not a feature. Genre mutts are the worst.

>>16242070

Bulletspongy enemies should be a punishment for not having good aim, I support the idea of a boss not being killed by a single headshot but making them take extra damage based on what armor they use, this is another issue I see in these games, usually an npc will wear their armor as clothes, they do not use regular clothes, their armor is their skin and cannot be modified to take certain damage reduction modifiers and vulnerabilities without making the whole armor have the same properties, to make my point see Payday dealing with bulldozers, bulldozers have a helmet on their heads that supposedly reduce damage until taken off by shooting at it enough, but in reality the helmet itself is part of their hp bar, they take no increase damage nor reduced damage after removing the helmet, it's just coded to pop-off after a certain ammount of health is lost.

A good way to make both modular armors and enemies would be to do something like fallout or alikes in which the armor itself is an item or parts of it is an item which can be independently modified from other parts of a set.

I've seen this issue with stalker games in which even if you drop a better armor to an npc using a shitty leather coat they will not equip it because their model is locked into using a leather coat, so you can't gear your companions outside of giving them weapons.

>will they never live up to anything save for bullet sponge city

I do not get the reason everyone brings up this complaint when it comes to looter shooters. What the hell is the point of including heavy rpg elements into a shooter when your level 1 rifle only kills an enemy one millisecond slower than a level 99 rifle? Bullet sponges are all over Fallout New Vegas yet I see no one complain about them or even bring them up. It's almost like sponges are required when adding a level and skill point system into anything in order for you levels to actually matter. I see sponges in every game with heavy rpg mechanics and yet for some reason no one complains about them until you put the camera in first person and put a gun in your hands.

Short answer is yes, long answer is it will never be done because it would enrage most players.

>Starting guns are sub-par. They are unreliable pieces of shit with shot out barrels and under/over gassed to no end. Worn out bits and bobs that can cause catastrophic failures like a broken bolt head or blown gas tube.

>Ammo is also bad, inconsistent powder charges or projectile weights that can cause jams or be inconsistent in point of impact respectively. Or even worse you get a bullet that doesn't manage to make it out of the barrel, leaving a bore obstruction that could split the barrel.

>Medium tier guns are civilian grade, jams happen but not as often. Better accuracy but not exceptionally good outside of hunting rifles. Not as many catastrophic failures but can happen.

>Ammo is more consistent but not as hot as military grade shit. Hunting ammo is better against targets without armor but becomes less useful the better the armor gets.

>High tier guns are military grade fresh out of the shipping container. Jams happen once in a blue moon. Guns are still not amazingly accurate but are good enough. Precision weapons are much more accurate but heavier than the hunting rifles, also more picky about ammo in repeating actions.

>Ammo is much more consistent, hotter loaded and with properly designed projectiles for dealing with hard and soft targets. Due to retarded laws in warfare that put expanding or fragmenting bullets into the same category as chemical and biological weapons, you have to rely on tumbling and direct hits to vitals. But you have a larger chance of penetrating armor and hitting the same spot twice.

(part 1 of 2)

>>16242270

<IRL examples for context.

A bargain bin (400-600 dollars on the American market) AR-15 with a cheap pencil barrel, non free floated handguard, carbine length gas system and iron sights.

>With good ammo it will do fine as long as the irons are zeroed for that particular round. With a mishmash of ammo it becomes inaccurate as there is no consistency, and possibly jam because one of uncle Jimmy's 80 grain bolt action only projectiles won't feed properly. As it gets used harder and harder, things like bolt heads break rendering it unusable. It's irons begin to cover up more and more of the target the farther away the shooter is from the target. And the longer it's fired rapidly (not even on full auto) it's accuracy gets worse as the barrel heats up. Due to the gas system being made for a 14.5 inch barrel and not the 16 inch barrel that it has, recoils harder. Gun is slower to swing because your supporting hand is behind more of the barrel's mass. Trigger is cheap and gritty, throwing off your shots as it seems to break at different points with each trigger pull. Cheaper barrel may have a 1-9 twist rate which won't properly stabilize heavier projectiles leading to a severe loss in accuracy.

Medium tier (600-1000 dollars on the American market) AR-15 with decent internal parts, a medium weight barrel, a free floated handguard, midlength gas system, and an okayish red dot.

>With good ammo it will be putting rounds in a 2 inch circle at 100 yards, standard plinking ammo is more like 4-5 inches at the same distance. Shooter has better target acquisition due to red dot not taking up less space than the irons, allowing for better distance shots and situational awareness. Harder and harder use can cause some parts malfunctions eventually. Barrel can keep it's accuracy tighter for a bit longer but takes a bit longer to cool down. Flash hider can make the shooter less of a target in low or no light situations. Mid length gas system allows for better gas expansion and softens recoil. 1-7 twist rate in the barrel won't properly stabilize lighter projectiles, imparting too much spin and causing the rounds to go off from point of aim. Will take longer for vital parts to break but it will happen with hard usage. Easier to swing as the longer handguard gives you more leverage on the heaviest part of the gun. Red dot can fail after hard use or forgetting to change the battery after 2 weeks of leaving it on.

High tier (1100-2000 dollars on the American market) AR-15 with premium internals, an amazing barrel that can be anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of the total price of the gun, midlength gas system, lightweight and nearly full length free floated hand guard, and a quality red dot.

>With good ammo, you're getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards, with premium ammo you're getting in the sub inch groups at that distance. Mostly the same as the medium tier but longer lasting parts that will handle rougher usage. Red dot has a 5 year battery life on the medium setting and the rifle can land on top of the optic after being dropped 40 feet, and not be rendered unusable. 1-8 twist means it can stabilize light and heavy projectiles fine, different chamber specs means better accuracy.

Legendary tier (2000-4000 dollars) Competition AR-15 for people that make a living off of shooting fast and accurately.

>Sub 1 inch groups but only with high grade or premium ammo. Custom gas system that only likes a particular weight of projectile/powder load. Variable magnification optic that may have a red dot mounted on it as well, the optic might cost as much as the gun. Will not jam due to it's construction but will due to shitty mags or using the wrong ammo for it. Custom buffer and aggressive muzzle brake that keeps the gun level during firing without pushing the nose down. This is a glass cannon, as long as everything is right it will work flawlessly.

No developer could sell such a system to a publisher, as suddenly it isn't in simple and easy to understand statistics. I dumbed it down by not going into things like buffer weights and springs or adjustable gas blocks. And those examples are just for one family of intermediate caliber lead spitters. You need to have a basic understanding of firearms and what they shoot to make a tier list that requires breaking down every single major component of each firearm to adjust values for. It also requires a jamming mechanic in the game. And I've yet to see a game that makes a double feed malfunction or stuck case malfunction and clearing mechanic that doesn't just indicate the gun is going to explode soon.

>>16242271

>pencil barrel

>cheap

Where?

>>16242323

Should have said Govt profile.

>>16242162

"Bullet sponge" doesn't just mean that the enemy has lots of HP. What's critical is whether the enemy is actually worth fighting for prolonged periods. Like take the two monk enemy types in ROTT, they're the textbook example bullet sponge because they have zero complexity in their movement and attacking, and are stun-locked with the MP 40. A counter-example from that game is the NME. He's tanky but not excessively, and more importantly has multiple different attacks, and when moving is scary-fast. He's engaging to fight and easily trumps the crappy final boss of the game. Or compare the fast and furious Sonic Adventure 1 Egg Viper boss to Sonic 2006's Iblis boss where you're waiting around for it to do things.

I don't play enough loot-shooter games to know whether they're making a valid complaint in this instance mind, but it's dead boring fighting enemies in Oblivion at higher levels, to give an example.

>>16242279

It also only works if you actually put some thought into the design. In the majority of games it's thoughtless cargo cult nonsense. To give examples, Doom 4 (and certain Doom mods including D4D) really don't need the game's fast pace being held up by stat upgrading and menus. In these situations it needs to be handled differently if at all. I also object to level-up stuff in games like Bullet Girls were you are graded based on stage performance, but after your character has leveled up it typically trivializes the grading of earlier stages. It would've been perfectly fine to have them not upgrade, and just be about playing better.

>>16242597

>>16242575

>>16242562

Good posts.

>>16242562

>>16242575

>>16242597

This reminds me a lot of GURPS, where every outcome comes down to a dice roll using various variables.

Attributes are the hardest to increase but they affect the most things. Skills have a smaller scope, but are cheaper and Proficiency is a niche uses for skills that even cheaper to raise.

So for instance, you could have Dexterity be used for every roll with Guns, Rifles used for rolling specifically rifles and SVD as a specialization in that skill, giving you the best outcome when you were using that specific weapon.

I'd also suggest that "training a skill" should be a two-step process in order to avoid Oblivion Leveling. Training a skill can earn you a single rank above it's current value and then it doesn't increase anymore until you decide to lock that rank as permanent, letting you keep on training that skill. This gives you full control over your build, you can use anything you have available without worrying about training skills you don't want and wasting points on them, but still requires that you use and train a skill instead of just dumping points in them.

You can also go further with the GURPS example, where everything you use to build a character has a Point Cost.

A regular human could have a limit of 300 points to be distributed in every skill\atribute\proficiency he trains in freely, so you have even more options to build on, with characters have more Atributes but less Skills or the reverse.

Nanomachines, gene therapy, drugs, etc can increase that limit and add a balancing detrimental effect. For instance Nanomachines give you 50 extra points and a new set of different effects you can pick from to customize your character, but now you need to keep them charged or you'll have an heavy stat penalty, something that can also happen with EMP attacks.

>>16238832

There should be a stats system akin to Jagged Alliance transposed to FPS gameplay. The game would also have to be pretty realistic or down-to-earth.

>Strength allows you to carry more without getting tired and deal more melee damage and throw further

>Agility makes you sneak better and throw weapons like knives and grenades more accurately

>Dexterity lets you shoot better (It could be called something different, but it should be separate from agility so that everyone who can shoot well isn't also a ninja automatically)

>Constitution would give you more base health and decrease the effect of injury and bleeding

>Willpower/Morale would prevent you from getting suppressed and tired as easily, the game should have Red Orchestra-esque suppression mechanics where the screen gets blurry and your aim gets worse when bullets whiz by near you. If friendly NPCs exist it would also make them more likely to be aggressive

>Intelligence allows you to perform technical and medical skills and handle explosives like C4 safely

>>16250239

Morrowind comes to mind, and Demon's Souls, although Demon's Souls requires a particular weapon and doesn't quite work in the way you are thinking.

>>16239012

>gunsmithing 1

>build a zipgun that loads shells backwards and you kill yourself/blow arms away

>gunsmithing 100

>G11 is to your guns what stones are to IRBMs

>>16248341

Jesus I want a game that has these.