/v/ - Video Games

Let me quickly just disregard everything you've typed and link this.

>>13946877

Well written character that never gets the attention she deserves(except on /v/) because she isn't the second coming of Jesus Christ or a Saturday morning cartoon villan.

Revan best grey Jedi

>>13946973

>>13946988

Funny you two should say this, because this follow-up to the last video I posted is about deconstructing the concept often referred to as that of the "grey Jedi" that's about being in the golden mean of the Jedi dichotomy rather than transcending the Jedi dichotomy.

>>13946877

She had her own ideology regarding the Force that did not align to our concepts of "good" or "evil", but rather reflected the laws and reality of nature. She firmly believes that the only way to grow and mature is to meet challenges and overcome them. This differs from the Jedi's belief that the strong should help the weak, but it also is separate from the Sith belief that the strong should oppress and control the weak.

There is a segment on Nar Shaddaa where, if you take the light side choice, she chastises you for helping others, and she specifically says that by constantly helping people you are depriving them of the chance to improve themselves. She describes it as a self-serving action on your part, because you take on the weight of these people's struggles and gain all the benefit from the experience, while those in need are left weak and unable to fend for themselves.

Also she was right about everything

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Kotor II. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of Jungian psychology most of the jokes will go over a typical viewers head. There's also Kreia's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into her characterisation her personal philosophy draws heavily from Tarkovsky's cinematography, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Kotor II truly ARE idiots of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Kreia's existential catchphrase "Apathy is death," which itself is a cryptic reference to Nietzsche's German epic Beyond Good and Evil. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Chris Avellone's genius wit unfolds itself on their computer screens. What fools.. how I pity them. 😂

And yes, by the way, i DO have a Star Wars tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid 😎

>>13946944

The answer is simple, a resurgence of the Mandalorians. With no scum Jedi to stop them, the master race would take over the galaxy.

Forget Kreia, what do you guys think about the Disciple? I always hear that he's boring but there's got to be more to him than that.

>>13947158

he's boring AND his hair is dumb

the end

>>13947001

How about you make a fucking post, and not embed some youtube videos.

>>13947191

>Bioware writing

And the shill outs himself instantly.

>Literal Neutral Special Snowflake Force user

Doesn’t comprehend the setting.

>She’s a fucking sith lord who would and without question backstab you the second you presented her with a good opportunity

And yet she killed sith lords, so wrong.

>>13947191

>Bioware

>im-fucking-plying

Bioware wishes they could have wrote that game. They can't write their way out of a fucking paper bag while held at gunpoint. They don't understand the word "nuance" and can't into believable people with believable motives.

>why did Malek betray Revan?

<because he's Sith lol

>okay, but why did no one ask questions as to where Lord Revan went and why did they immediately follow Malek without a token struggle?

<because he's a Sith lol

>but you obviously have people, especially on Korriban, willing to die for Revan if you reveal your identity to them

<lol who cares! BAD GUYS AMIRIGHT?

>>13947231

>and yet she killed sith lords

That's not a very good point to bring up considering Sith would leap at any chance to take one another out for the tiniest of transgressions such as not saying hello in passing. sage for double post

>>13946877

She makes a good point (in fact several) but her philosophy falls apart when you realize it basically just boils down to removing force users from the galaxy by self-imposed exile. The fact is Star Wars' universe is doomed no matter what you do. It's not called Star Peace. The very existence of the force basically means the light side will always win but there will always be conflict caused by the dark side, so, like I said, the universe is doomed to endless conflict with the occasional happy ending and peace for a thousand years here and there.

Still, I really like Kreia as a character. Probably my favorite Star Wars character.

>>13947240

>Yes Because they were weaker than her.

Wow. That’s such a point in your favor. Totally proves you right. About anything at all. Yep.

>>13947306

Shit, didn't mean to embed that because it had already been posted. IGNORE ME!

the whole of the philosophical differences are fundamentally contrived to give and excuse for people to hit themselves with lazor swords. they lack constancy with themselves abandon concepts of duty and honor to reduce man to his base passions and to say that any passion is selfish even love of ones fellow man.

Kira exists and it written to contradict the player. all her self defeating words her failures her past and the god awful ending that was shat out for her never to be polished. but at its core shit. did anyone come forward and say you know we did have a story we wanted to finish but we cut it for time constraints or did they say we did not polish it enough? she was there to be the big baddie at the end. to exist as opposition to the player good or bad. thing one and thing two to challenge the player in the same way. LOL sith cant just co-exist that would be stupid. McPlanetKing addict cant help but be a fat ass and sleeps with razors is not edgy enough to try and fuck with you. because he hate kira that's why he works for her at he end. even if you decide that your going to kite his bitch ass with a pair of pistols he will serve his dom to his dying breath. oh you don't like the pain she hurt you well just fucking kill yourself or quit being so fucking edgy.

The idea that the sith are some sort of will to power and the jedi are opposed to this is desperate fanboys trying to make sense of a philosophy that never existed in the first place. you think george ever bothered to really read into budism, Christianity, stoicism any philosophical backing for his red team vs green team match up? that's it,i got to say i prefer the EU ideas the filled holes but at the end of the day none of it is consistent with the original trilogy & prequels. and you know that Disney is going to rub their circumstanced cock all over it picking out comedic features to emulate and fill with soulless husks of characters.

>>13947690

She knows this herself. Despite her all ramblings about it, she was just a bitter old woman by the end of the day who wishes to see the brighter future. In the player character, she sees it. That is why all the 4D chess, and in the end she still cannot let go of her resentments so she just sets up a dramatic end for herself with you in charge of the future.

>>13947306

It wasn't to exile force, she literally was able to get rid of the force and take away the galaxies connection to the force.

>>13948171

No, she wasn't. The Exile was a rip in the force, Kreia didn't do that. That was just something that happened to the Exile on Malachor 5.

>>13948036

and then the Exile and Revan die off screen befire ToRtanic starts because that won't be the most retarded thing to do with their characters.

>>13946877

I bet kreia was a cutie when she was young.

>>13948300

I went to look up lewds of Kreia to make a joke about how she's a GILF, but there is only 3 of them and they are all deviant art tier.

>>13948327

Real talk, would you guys bone gilf kreia under some circumstances or is it a hard no?

>>13948377

>They retconned that comic.

>That comic only existed to tell the back story of that game's big bad.

>>13947014

The biggest flaw with Kreia is that retcons to the Force (before and after) makes her philosophy impossible and unworkable. Especially during the game where Jedi are shown to basically become an embodiment of their code out of necessity and violating it would really fuck them over.

>>13947243

Malek was lame as hell… something the Sith on Korriban seemed aware of. Was there an interview where this silliness got emphasized?

>>13948578

That was a Miraluka colony world, actually, not their homeworld. And the Cathar survived through colonies, as far as I know.

>>13948643

No, but that's the general feel of the game. They never bothered to emphasize what a dramatic shift in leadership would do to something such as the Sith Empire. Bioware just completely fucking forgot about something as important as that. Nobody split off into their own "Revanite" bands nor was there anyone questioning what happened to their GREATEST FUCKING ASSET. So for some reason, everyone in the Imperial chain of command, acolytes and lords included, never issued any Inquisitions or splintered after Revan was captured. Atleast they somewhat fixed this issue in Dragon Age: Origins with Loghain having an Iron Fisted attitude towards dissidents.

>>13948666

Thanks for clearing that up, Satan. It's been a little bit since I've played the game. I thought, for some reason, that it was their homeworld.

>>13947231

>And yet she killed sith lords, so wrong.

Killing other Sith Lords is a Sith Lord tradition.

>>13948708

I like the Sith Empire and their general aesthetic, but I want to know how someone creates a galaxy spanning autocracy based on lies, corruption and backstabbing. That shit would collapse in less than a year. How do you manage to get people who's hobby is assassinating both friends and rivals into the same room to accomplish anything?

>>13948722

>autocracy based on lies, corruption and backstabbing

That sounds like just about every tyrannical government in history, so probably however the irl ones did plus what you need for governing space Besides, the Galactic Empire had plenty of that, with imperial subjects competing for the Emperor's favor.

>>13948733

>That sounds like just about every tyrannical government in history, so probably however the irl ones did

It took Stalin several years and a bit of Hitler working him over with paranoia before he really started to do that shit. Sith will outright kill each other on the spot no questions for no benefit purely to prove they're the strongest, the Rule of Two exists purely to stop Sith apprentices from killing the Master before their training is complete.

There are already 2 other Star Wars threads up, you know.

>>13947690

>Kreia recognizes that the Force has a will and guides the galaxy towards continuous struggle, and she resents that fact even though it clearly creates countless opportunities for people to struggle, overcome, and grow, and she wants to destroy the force even though its absence could very well lead to centuries of apathy, which she regards as worse than death. Worst of all is that you cannot call her out on her hypocrisy.

You don't know that getting rid of the Force would lead to that. Even in the Nar Shaddaa scene that became a huge point of debate, you don't lose influence with her for helping people as long as you pick the right dialogue options, so she's clearly not dead set on creating needless struggle everywhere. Certain types of conflict can help someone grow, but not all conflict does.

>>13947765

That was probably the most retarded moment in the EU, actually. Just when they'd finally managed to become a bit more mature, they went back to a hard light/dark dichotomy because most Star Wars fans are only capable of processing "big bad evil guy with red lightsaber fights ultra pure boy scout with blue or green lightsaber, boy scout wins" and they need to sell action figures. This of course ignores the fact that Luke struggles with resisting the temptation to give in to the anger that consumed his father, meaning he's a believable human character and not a perfect boy scout. The old Jedi Order's failings were the result of people pretending to be boy scouts when they weren't, and it's kind of amazing how the people who made the decision to revert the nuance introduced by NJO don't understand that they embody the same mentality that got the Jedi destroyed. They seem to want all their heroic characters to be incorruptible saints instead of just being people who do heroic things while still having the same difficulties with life and getting along that anyone else experiences. That's how we got Greedo shooting first.

>>13948585

Nothing before that makes her philosophy unworkable. It's possible to come to a Kreia-like view of the Force without ever invoking the EU, let alone Kreia herself. All you have to do is recognize that as Yoda and Obi-Wan said, belief is an important part of how the Force works. Combine that with a thousand generations of powerful Force users believing that the Force works a certain way and maybe it could start working that way.

>>13948733

I can understand the Galactic Empire withstanding because only the Emperor was a Sith Lord. You had a variety of people who joined either because they wanted power, money to support their family or out of loyalty to a system that brought peace and stability to an otherwise chaotic galaxy. But with the Sith Empire, the leadership either feared for their life or became as the Sith because they worked directly with a Lord or one of their acolytes/neophytes. The Sith Empire was kill or be killed while the Galactic Empire was much like the British Empire with the people being able to rule themselves while still having to obey the overarching laws of Britannia. People like Thrawn are drawn to the Galactic Empire but would be absolutely repulsed by the Sith Empire. But for some reason the Ascendancy still sided with the Sith Empire in TOR because Thrawn joined the Galactic, I guess?

>>13948783

Ok, so the Sith Empire is more like a tradional monarchy I guess? But instead of your family fighting over the throne, it's every bloke who can use the force?

>>13946877

Deserved better than being retconned into the shitter by Bioware in TORtanic, really enjoyed her philosophical lectures and the debates.

>>13948796

It makes more sense when you put it that way. Vitiate is the Emperor and every lord is a noble who can enforce their powers directly or through their acolytes onto their slaves and subjects. But instead of trying to help their people, they actively fuck them over through mass slaughter and experimentation. The thing that is different is that Vitiate does jack shit and the Dark Council does everything instead. They call the shots on who get's the axe next and where their power base goes. Vitiate only steps in to curb stomp retards who think they can take out the Emperor.

It's 2 a.m. where I am, so my typing is getting a little retarded. I'm going to bed for the night and will talk more if the thread is still active in the morning. Had a nice chat tonight boyos.

>>13948769

>Nothing before that makes her philosophy unworkable. It's possible to come to a Kreia-like view of the Force without ever invoking the EU,

To do that is to ignore everything except the first three movies, this includes the game she is in herself, that kind of bullshit doesn't fly with me Anon.

>>13948851

Is it? Just because somebody gets Light or Dark Mastery doesn't mean the Force inherently works on a light or dark basis. It could just be a psychological thing. The more certain you are of yourself, the easier it is to focus on something, including channeling Force power.

>>13948878

> Just because somebody gets Light or Dark Mastery doesn't mean the Force inherently works on a light or dark basis.

So you didn't actually read my fucking post or reading more into it then what I've actually written, yeah that figures with you Torpedos. Listen here you faggot, the game outright establishes constantly what Force dependency is and does to Jedi of all stripes including the Sith and Kreia herself. By the very game's own story and explanation it is actually impossible for her philosophy to work any Jedi who followed that philosophy would simply just become an embodiment of that philosophy to it's extreme or be a gimped Jedi who can never really tap into the force as well as any other Jedi who doesn't go all the way. That is what I'm pointing out, nothing I said establishes that the force must adhere to Good and Evil but that the Jedi by the game's own story become that way because they have to.

She was so easy to beat, just death choke the bitch

>>13948915

>By the very game's own story and explanation it is actually impossible for her philosophy to work any Jedi who followed that philosophy would simply just become an embodiment of that philosophy to it's extreme or be a gimped Jedi who can never really tap into the force as well as any other Jedi who doesn't go all the way.

Maybe that's why Kreia was looking for a way to get rid of the Force and was annoyed when people were dependent on it to the exclusion of normal skills. Since so many Force users were prone to becoming extremists of one variety or another for whatever reason, she wanted people to rely on non-Force abilities and came to believe that the only way to truly achieve a clear perspective on life was to give up the Force. Even supposing that there isn't a way to achieve mastery outside of going full light or full dark, her idea is that being a gimped Jedi is better than being a cartoon character caricature of a person.

>>13948940

Okay I'm gonna have to ask this, did you actually play the game? Because from the way you post I get the feeling you haven't played the game at all.

>>13946877

>because she believed that the Jedi/Sith had far too much control and every time they had a little fight it would end in the deaths of billions of innocents.

I never played the games at all, I just watched the video embedded in the first post in this thread. According to my memory of that video, I'm pretty sure the issue was that both the Jedi and the Sith were heavily reliant on the Force for everything and that the Force itself actually had its own will: to destroy the Sith. The Force would puppeteer and manipulated everyone and everything in order to attain its goal of the annihilation of the Sith. The death of the billions of innocents you're referring to that she mentions? I'm pretty sure she literally, when she says that line, within the very minute of the delivery of that line, talks about how the Force is controlling everyone.

I have absolutely no idea how you missed that.

>>13946942

He did a really nice follow up on Grey Jedi. Both of these are a really good listen.

>>13948965

If you didn't know that the whole point of Kreia was wanting to get rid of the Force because of the damage it causes regardless of how much power you can gain from it, you didn't play the game.

>>13946877

Instead of following a doctrine blindly, she sought to discover the true nature of the Force and eventually came to hate it. There is no perfect doctrine that can be followed, and she could not devise one. The Force is a chaotic power. Both the Jedi and Sith doctrines are self-destructive and result in the loss of a person's identity and goals.

>>13948971

Not quite, destroying the Sith would still bring an imbalance which is what the force want to undo. Sith Empires and people are part of that destruction but Dark Side users will always appear.

>>13948965

I think you're the one who didn't.

>>13946877

I don't agree with her wanting to destroy the force, but I do agree with her on the topic of the Sith/Jedi. A true mastery of the force would be the ability to use it without aligning yourself with either extreme.

>>13950390

I take it that you don't like the man.

>>13947687

>

>

>the whole of the philosophical differences are fundamentally contrived to give and excuse for people to hit themselves with lazor swords. they lack constancy with themselves abandon concepts of duty and honor to reduce man to his base passions and to say that any passion is selfish even love of ones fellow man.

>

>Kira exists and it written to contradict the player. all her self defeating words her failures her past and the god awful ending that was shat out for her never to be polished. but at its core shit. did anyone come forward and say you know we did have a story we wanted to finish but we cut it for time constraints or did they say we did not polish it enough? she was there to be the big baddie at the end. to exist as opposition to the player good or bad. thing one and thing two to challenge the player in the same way. LOL sith cant just co-exist that would be stupid. McPlanetKing addict cant help but be a fat ass and sleeps with razors is not edgy enough to try and fuck with you. because he hate kira that's why he works for her at he end. even if you decide that your going to kite his bitch ass with a pair of pistols he will serve his dom to his dying breath. oh you don't like the pain she hurt you well just fucking kill yourself or quit being so fucking edgy.

>

>The idea that the sith are some sort of will to power and the jedi are opposed to this is desperate fanboys trying to make sense of a philosophy that never existed in the first place. you think george ever bothered to really read into budism, Christianity, stoicism any philosophical backing for his red team vs green team match up? that's it,i got to say i prefer the EU ideas the filled holes but at the end of the day none of it is consistent with the original trilogy & prequels. and you know that Disney is going to rub their circumstanced cock all over it picking out comedic features to emulate and fill with soulless husks of characters.

DIS

>>13950461

I'd like to make an uneducated guess.

>>>/tv/

>>13948801

George Lucas himself was personally butthurt over Kreia and so wanted her retconned.

>N-No THE JEDI ARE ALL GOOD STOP CRITICIZING THEM

>>13948207

Her plan was to use you to destroy the force. They even talk about it at the ending of the game. If she succeeded there would be no more Jedi or Sith and people could actually progress since the universe of starwars is fucking shit with slavery and evils rampant but the Jedi don't give a shit about that, their entire fucking grip on the government is basically to make sure Sith don't rise to power rather than caring about the average peasant.

Force is one of the most retarded aspects of star wars so she'd be doing the franchise a favour.

>destiny/fate

force

>magic

force

>plot armor

force

Wow, what a good thing it is.

>>13947687

>you think george ever bothered

Seeing how the original trilogy was very different compared to his "vision", why does it even matter?

>>13951173

Eh, if all these things happen anyways under the "good" side's watch, and there is an entire alien race just waiting to come in and mop up those Force touched races (that they made) then getting rid of the Force does jack shit besides stopping Sith who become like Darth Nihilus.

>>13951173

That was her dream, not her plan, she had no way of achieving it. Again: She didn't have the power to sunder people from the force. That's why she's curious about the Exile, she hoped to learn how he was severed from the force, but unless I'm mistaken it was something specific to him and not something she was able to replicate.

>>13951183

It's also what differentiates it from other Sci-Fi.

>>13952417

It's not even sci-fi, just fi

>>13951401

>She had no way of achieving it

The jedi seemed to think she could. They literally said how scared they were that her and you could literally kill the force and were doing so.

>>13952550

I've heard it referred to as Science Fantasy. Either way, it's still got the trappings of Sci-Fi on the surface.

>>13948578

Mando is a religion, not a people. You can easily get more Mandos is they follow the belief of Mandalor.

>>13953133

You do realize that she's a villain of the story, yes?

Jedi and Sith are the faggiest element of Star Queers, so exterminating them means she has good ideas at the very least. Too bad KOTOR games sucked balls.

>>13953133

Or she just doesn't want space wizards fucking up the galaxy any more. All they do is ruin shit and they are horrible at governing. They are space kikes

>>13953229

I think the Galactic Empire had a pretty good run of things, and the whole thing was a space wizard conspiracy from the start.

In all seriousness… you can't force natural processes to stop for the sake of creating your perfect world, because the suppressed natural process will re-emerge more violently than ever before, destroying everything you built on its supposed grave. The struggle between the light and dark side of the force is a fundamental natural process in that universe, so trying to suppress it will probably lead to untold devastation. You cannot ban war or ban violence anymore than you can ban sexuality or love, and you cannot conduct war for the sake of peace. War and violence are essential parts of life, and unstoppable natural forces.

>>13953242

Sith are definitely less bad, but the whole metaphysics of the universe basically demands Jedi exist to offset them, so they're space-fag enablers even if they do occasionally remove Jedi. Sith definitely help bring the universe to better governance though. An autocratic empire is definitely preferable to a corrupt and bloated republic.

>>13946877

Star Wars is gay. They made two good movies (Hope and Empire), and the rest has been a shitshow.

She was a great character, but I didn't agree with her.

It was interesting that she said she "hates the Force", though.

>>13953306

meant for >>13953271

> You cannot ban war or ban violence anymore than you can ban sexuality or love

That is literally what the jedi want to do. They are the unnatural ones.

>>13953271

>space-fags

Don't you mean space-gooks?

Also, yes, Darth Plagueis breaks down how the less feral Sith see themselves as the rightful stewards and leaders of the Galaxy. This on top of their righteous hatred for the Jedi over their past. Go listen to the audiobook, it's surprisingly comfy.

>>13953276

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the dark side just what they use to describe evil force users? That's the explanation the series seems to go with when the Sith are depicted as canonically evil.

As I understand it, the whole mistake the Jedi made was branding certain force powers as "evil" and since the Sith generally care more about power than stupid shit like being afraid of using the other side's space magic they have access to all of them. I believe Luke's Jedi Order largely avoided many of those mistakes, and basically said "Use whatever space magic you want, just don't abuse your powers". Balance in the force isn't some weird space-magic centrism, it's just not having evil Force-users fucking shit up. Which is why Anakin was basically born to kill Palpatine

>>13953306

You have the normal planets too you know. Corellia, Alderaan, Naboo, Kashyyyk, and Dantooine are all relatively alright places to live ignore the fact Alderaan is a debris field now.

>>13953320

The failure of the Jedi only demonstrates my point, though. They wanted to end the cycle and failed. The entire story of the Star Wars series is the catastrophic fallout of their failure to suppress the natural forces which drove the struggle between light an dark. Rather than trying to stop or control the conflict between light and dark, they should just let it happen. It's not something that can really be resisted anyways because mortals are not the masters of their own destinies.

>>13953306

You are only describing the features of any late-phase society, here. It is what happened to China, India, Egypt, Rome, Arabia, and will happen to the West as well over the course of the next few hundred years. Every society has a life span. This is another unstoppable natural process.

>>13953428

The jedi society has lasted for literally thousands of years without change. There is no true advancement in any regard.

>>13953469

Right, exactly like any other late phase society. Most are usually conquered by neighbors after a few hundred years here on earth, but Star Wars likes to use large numbers. The only advancements that happen once a society has reached its final phase are military technology (occasional advancements in technologies related to mass production and transit as well). In Star Wars they keep building bigger and better war machines and planet-destroying cannons, so I don't know that you can there have been no advancements.

Societies don't continue to get better an more advanced. They reach a certain point, use up their potential, stagnate, and then slowly decay until they get wiped out by something else. Perpetual growth and progress is a myth. Even if you got rid of the Jedi and Sith, you would have wars, slavery, corruption, and stagnation without advancement. And eventually, the Jedi and Sith would probably re-emerge anyways.

>>13953505

>a myth

To an extent, although there was scientific advancement going on throughout the Middle Ages.

>>13946877

If it wasn't over the force they'd fight over something else. The CIS fought to establish economic superiority. I think the setting is ripe for racial conflict personallyNo pol it's important to remember, depending on the writer, that the force exists as a symptom of the forces that drive life and the cycle of death and is not something that exists for it's own sake.

>>13953505

> exactly like any other late phase society.

Can you name any society in human history without advancement for literally thousands of years? Even the Dark ages had technological advancement.

>They reach a certain point, use up their potential, stagnate,

And yet humans as a whole always advance and this has always been the case. I bet you think modern society is "stagnant" despite it progressing faster than it ever has before.

>>13953398

>>13953398

>Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the dark side just what they use to describe evil force users?

IIRC in the clone wars TV series Anakin visisted the planet where the force comes from and there was an old man and his two kids and one of them was the dark side of the force and the other was the light side.

>>13953544

>A planet where the force comes from

That sounds really stupid. Does that mean you could blow it up?

>>13953511

Middle Ages was an early phase society with a lot of cultural, political, and intellectual developments.

>>13953530

>Can you name any society in human history without advancement for literally thousands of years? Even the Dark ages had technological advancement.

Regarding the middle ages, see my point above. Like I have said before, on earth, most late phase civilizations do not make it thousands of years before being wiped out by younger more fit societies. Rome started stagnating within a few generations of its transition into the Roman Empire (Western Empire, specifically, it would be a mistake to treat the Eastern and Western Empires as the same thing), and their only real advancements were military at that point. China was around for a couple thousand years after reaching its imperial age without much advancement outside of military technology or trade. Arab society reached its final phase a little over a thousand years ago at this point, and is still around with little advancements outside of military technology and trade, a lot of which is stuff that they have borrowed from the West at a certain point.

"Modern" society isn't a thing. Western society is in its modern/late phase. It has not yet reached stagnation, but is quickly burning through its potential, like a light bulb burns brightest before it goes out. Already most of its advancements have become economic and militaristic in nature, though. I think over the next hundred years, you will see the rate of advancement slow rather than increase like people claim. We have not reached stagnation yet, but we will soon.

Also, Human societies "as a whole" do not necessarily always advance. How long after Rome did it take the Western world to rediscover indoor plumbing? It was not a guaranteed thing that indoor plumbing would have been one of the things that we rediscovered, and there is plenty of lost tech from other civs, such as the south-pointing chariot used by the Chinese, which worked as a compass but without magnetism. This tech may never be rediscovered.

>>13953544

>>13953554

There's still debate over how much of those episodes was metaphorical or not, mind you.

>>13947231

>And yet she killed sith lords, so wrong.

>Sith don't kill sith

>Even though it's been established that they kill each other all the time. And the way a padawan 'graduates' is by killing his master.

wat

>>13948722

>How do you manage to get people who's hobby is assassinating both friends and rivals into the same room to accomplish anything?

Ask the Clintons :^)

>>13949825

>Star wars starts copying 40k

>Race wars between humans and Twi'leks

>Sith summoning demons.

>Jedi exterminatusing planets to stop Dark Side corruption from spreading

>Mankind unites under one banner in an attempt to rule the galaxy.

>Genetically engineered storm troopers as big as a horse.

I'd be ok with this.

>>13953554

I have no idea I stopped watching TV years ago and I only sort of stumbled on the show again and was confused as the series actually gained the balls to change the status quo and was lost.

Like IIRC in another episode askhoka used the force choke on some dude.

>>13953632

>im an idiot who never heard of byzantium

lol reddit kiddies

>>13953705

You are a fucking moron. I mentioned the Eastern Empire in the post that you responded to. To repeat myself, it is a mistake to consider the Easter Empire and the Western Empire as a single society.

Eastern Empire was effectively a part of a completely different cultural system which grew out of the shadow of the Persian Empire and eventually ended with the Arab Empire. The Western Roman Empire was a part of the Classical world.

>>13953752

Yeah, the Byzantines may technically have continued the Roman Empire, but they really were quite different. That, and they got taken over by Muslims and became the Ottoman Empire, and later Turkey

>>13953758

Exactly:

>different language

>different religion

>different culture

>different demographic

They are only a little more related to the Western Roman Empire than the Western Roman Empire was related to the Holy Roman Empire.

>>13953770

Granted, the different Religion part and the capital becoming Constantinople is something that happened while the former Roman empire was still united. But ultimately the Roman empire ceased to exist when it split, and time did the rest of the work.

>>13953793

Sure, but at the same time Latin Christianity and Greek Christianity were quite different from the start and quickly diverged as the Western Empire became more Germanic and the East more "Greek." The Great Schism was a long time coming when it finally happened, and there were major practical disagreements going way far back.

Other than that, I agree.

Stop overthinking it.

Kreia was skeptic about the Jedi's SJW agree with us or you're a Sith bigot philosophy.

Kreia, like any intellecual, sought information from both sides to reach a conclusion.

Kreia learned about the Sith and became an exile.

Kreia then learned the Sith were also flawed, and found many not being True Sith, just like she states there are True Jedi too (Exile and companions).

As long as they are True that is ok in her eyes, whether Jedi or Sith they'd achieve things that would be beneficial use of the Force.

Kreia dislikes the normie Jedi/Sith, because she believes they are not fit to use the Force. The Force was something that is pretty much predestining their fate and she wanted people to be free men.

Kreia chose to stay to guide more exiles, to redpill others in a sense.

only thing I disagree with is that she leaned more into Sith than centrist, especially at the end.

However Kreia transcends the bland dichotomy of good vs evil established in Star Wars, KOTOR2 grabbing a low common denominator series and turning into a better written world

>>13947001

This is major overthinking.

>>13953306

>the jedi (and sith) are horrible at government

believe it or not, this was actually hinted at/alluded to in TOR. the republic is essentially a lying monarchy where people are born into serfdom, are told everything's alright, and are used as chattel for a system that smiles through their teeth then pushes people into the meatgrinder, be it wars or colonization. the sith empire is a meritocracy where the weak are preyed on openly and the strong are rewarded, and no secret whatsoever is made of this

>>13953752

>>13953758

>>13953770

>>13953793

>>13953815

easy there, reddit.

>The originally planned ending would have provided in-game fates - and in many cases, deaths - for all of the characters who travel with the main player character. In-game, the game ends with Darth Traya revealing the party member's futures. By explaining their futures, instead of showing the events leading up to those futures, it leaves just what happened to the designers of the unreleased KOTOR III.

>In a gesture to the game's fans, Obsidian Entertainment provided the PC version of the game with many resources meant to be used for the original ending (such as screen plays, voice-acting, etc.), which was abbreviated because of pressure from LucasArts to release the game in time for the Christmas season. Obsidian Entertainment also petitioned to LucasArts themselves for a Content Patch which would restore the content, though LucasArts denied the request.

Amazing. Truly.

>>13953909

It doesn't help that the two Sith Lords she knew best were respectively a Scottish pain junkie-zombie with a chip on his fragmented shoulder and a life-devouring abomination anathema to reality in the shape of a man.

Author avatar of Chris Avellone that wasn't a fan of Star Wars, but probably one of the best written characters in the EU.

>>13948585

There is no reason to care about retcons outside of the game, do you really want to decide what you believe in from whatever the copyright holder says? In fact, nothing in KotOR 2 is "canon" anyways since Disney dropped the entire EU.

In my view the only Star Wars media to consider canon is whatever is well-written and fits together, which includes none of the movies nor most of the EU.

>>13954986

I do the same with lord of the rings.

The only canon part of the franchise is the Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring video game released for Windows XP.

>>13947231

killing sith lords is sith lords special-ity, anon

>>13953211

Clearly.

Kindly off yourself, you waste of space.

>>>/b/

>>13955242

*the New Republic

>>13954638

yeah that segment was fucking dumb.

>Man needs help

>help man.

>Jews kill man

>"It's your fault he's dead anon."

>>13955255

I know this, why are you telling me?

>>13953530

Ancient Egypt.

>>13953632

>Middle Ages was an early phase society with a lot of cultural, political, and intellectual developments.

You don't know what you're talking about at all and completely destroyed all credibility you had with this one sentence. The medieval era is just a blanket term for the thousands of years between Rome's fall in Europe all the way to the Renaissance.

>>13951401

>specific to him

and Nihilus but he was too far gone

>>13954638

>do a good thing

<light side is stupid you're an idiot

>do a bad thing

<dark side is stupid you're an idiot

>do neither

<APATHY IS DEATH

don't help people and don't fuck people over, just do things that further your own goals. fucking Kreiayn Rand.

>>13946877

She has an interesting philosophy that teaches young edgelords how to into thinking; but ultimately as you grow older you start to find holes in her teachings. It's a good starting point, but you shouldn't just take what she says to heart.

>>13955526

>that teaches young edgelords how to into thinking

The only reason you think this is because Bioshit's KOTOR is so ridiculously bad when it comes to its morality system, so of course you think Obshitian's KOTOR II is like a breath of fresh air. But you're wrong. Kreia/Traya was a pseudo-intellectual RPer, and true Sith like Palpatine and Darth Bane were superior in every way to her.

>m-muh edgelords

Kreia had more bitchfits than both Palpatine, Bane, and Plagueis combines. She'd lose her shit at you no matter what you did because her pseudo-intellectual drivel meant that she could question everything from her """neutral""" high-ground.

>>13947243

To be fair, it was already Star Wars lore that the strongest Sith would be the leader. So if you kill the strongest Sith, that would make you stronger. KoTOR was a pretty well written game, but it's not hard to mess up Star Wars while you're copying the movies.

Just because Bioware sucks, it doesn't mean that they can't release at one well written game. my second choice woulda been Mass Effect 2

>>13955414

Kreia is not advocating that you do not do anything, but that you carely consider your actions before doing it. Not simply acting out of ideology (do good things because that's what a Jedi do) or acting on impulse (randomly killing a guy for no reason).

Letting people help themselves makes everyone stronger, and if they are unable to help themselves, you can manipulate them into getting what you want.

>>13953556

>20 words

Easy.

Apathy is death. Human nature is selfish. The Force corrupts all those that use it selfishly. Middle is no solution.

>>13955574

I don't know if you're arguing for or against what I wrote at this point. I'm going to assume you just read a few words and then dribbled your insides over your keyboard.

>>13955844

If you take the second as its own thing it's way better than the first. Though, I do enjoy cinematic writing slightly more than long conversations.

>>13956034

Mass Effect is an RPG? I thought it was a shooter with mild cyoa routes.

>>13956036

It also had leveling.

>>13956036

Well, the first game had more detailed stat and an equipment system. It's like a simpler linear RPG with real-time shoot.

>>13954638

Are you stupid? It literally *is* your fault.

You gave power to someone that did not have the means to protect said power. Imagine if you gave a homeless man a million dollars. What do you think would happen? Especially in a lawless planet where everyone is struggling for power? If you raise a person accidently, you bring in the eyes and envy from others. So yes, helping someone that isn't deserving of power is your fault. Kreia pointing this out is not a fault of the game or herself.

>>13956034

Miranda is a retard who is wrong about every single thing she opens her mouth about and a bitch, and she even looks bad. Her "ass" looks like she put two pillows into her suit. It doesn't look even close to an actual ass, it just looks completely off. And despite being an obnoxious bitch she has ridiculous plot armor.

Kreia is great but her secret ultimate goal of "destroying the force" is retarded and unrealistic even if not wanting the force to control people's lives is an understandable goal

Just ending the sith and the jedi and starting her own way better movement of enlightened machiavellian centrists would have been fine enough

Also she was clearly just suicidal at the end, her death didn't really achieve anything and the dumb bitch didn't even have the foresight to leave behind a holocron or anything

>>13946973

Revan is a shit fucking character and it's really sad

In KOTOR 1 he was basically just a cookie cutter darth vader style villain, cool looking, hyper-competent, and so on, and the only interesting thing about him was that bioware conceived of his character arc solely out of the desire have a big shyamalan twist that people would talk about, but otherwise he was just a generic evil bad guy that turned into a generic good/bad silent protagonist

KOTOR 2 pretty much entirely retconned him as a character into being morally grey and interesting, and he wasn't even in the fucking game so it was all just hearsay and implication

But then Bioware got the reigns back again in TORtanic and fleshed out what would have been his journey in KOTOR 3, and handled it even worse than you would expect, returning him to the gay saturday morning cartoon star wars moral binary

Before Lucas put the clamps on it, Revan was also going to appear in The Clone Wars, in that episode with the retarded human avatars of the two sides of the force, as a manifestation of the dark side, further cementing him as just another bad guy

Revan being a good character is something entirely localized to only the way obsidian had people describe him in KOTOR 2, which if taken in the context of the rest of his appearances basically makes that portrayal of his character an in-universe meme

>>13956281

The only characterization he gets is that he was ruthless in defeating the Mandalorians but that's not really characterization. Kotor 2 described him as a legendary tactician that was 5 moves ahead of everything.

I still wonder if Drew got pissed at how Avellone stole his character and made him better. Same with HK47. Cool concept but made iconic in Kotor 2.

>>13956523

I haven't played the second game, but HK-47 was pretty great in the first one. Then again, it's pretty easy to make a psychopathic killbot into a good character.

>>13956523

HK was written really well because half the time he was basically a surrogate mouthpiece for Revan with murderbot jokes thrown on top

If Kreia gave us a perspective of him as his teacher, then HK would be the other side of that, essentially being his student

>>13953271

>and you cannot conduct war for the sake of peace

This is a stupid metaphor, on tier with "if you kill your enemies, they win". Fucking hell, taking George Carlin's joke about it to show the truth of it, "you can't fuck for virginity" is utterly false. By latter, you're creating a new virgin life. By the former, by eradicating the source of contention, peace is the natural consequence.

>>13956226

by that definition, all star wars characters are shit because they are unrealistic personalities in an unrealistic fictional universe

>>13956523

>I still wonder if Drew got pissed at how Avellone stole his character and made him better.

>>13956281

>Literally the only good characterization Revan gets is in KOTOR2.

that never happened though?

>>13956690

I think you took the exact opposite to my meaning, tbh fam. Embrace war as a necessary fact of life, and don't delude yourself with the idea that the wars you are fighting are for the sake of establishing a peace. War is about acquisition of resources or the defense of resources. Peace only enters the picture once the resources are either gained or the attacker routed, and even then it is only a ceasefire, and the war continues by other means. War is not an evil, and claims of war for the sake of peace is self-deception.

>>13956735

>the war continues by other means. War is not an evil, and claims of war for the sake of peace is self-deception.

I'm talking about extermination, not skirmishing where the source of contention is merely driven off.

Remove the source of contention and you have peace. For a while, anyhow.

>>13956749

Fair enough, but to be fair it only establishes "peace" with the eradicated tribe, and only by defaulting into it. The truth of the matter is that all nations are in a constant state of war against one another, even "allies." Even if you somehow eradicate all external enemies, there will always be internal ones as well. Where no enemies exist, new ones will arise. War and conflict are the nature of mortal existence, and peace is only a temporary reprieve so that you can prep for the next battle.

>>13956773

True enough, but on the scale of for example indigenous tribes, the peace which complete eradication of an opposing tribe brings is the most absolute peace possible, possibly often lasting for generations.

>>13956789

That's too bad for them. The most destructive thing for a society is too long a peace.

>>13956695

>Is it a net benefit?

Yes. There are more chris-chan autists than functioning autists.

Their world doesn't NEED jedi, and would be better off without them.

Logically, she's correct. Morally/ethically, she's not, and comes out radical. I agree with you, you're better fixing than destroying. But the question is, can you fix the nature of it? you can fix the jedi code/system but humans will always be corrupt.

A better solution would be setting up some sort of balancing team to remove unfit jedi/sith to keep all jedi True jedi. But that would, again, be immoral and not practical or benecifial to the jedi council (removing man power, more resources on something that doesn't benefit them)

Her solution is the only applicable solution, to remove the current system and start with a new, balanced one.

But no one is going to do that, neither side will willingly transcend, hence she uses force to achieve that goal.

Although your decision is the correct one is not applicable or viable in that world. Due to nature of men or the current system not willing to do it. don't hate her for doing the logical step.

Kreia should've simply started her own gray jedi system. That's probably the most ethical approach, albeit slower in change. In a sense, that's what she did with the exile.

>>13947014

It was the moment where a guy asks you to spare some credits, right? Whatever you do the game punches you in that part, which is a very interesting piece of worldbuilding right after you land on Nar Shadaa, a smuggler's paradise.

>Give money to him: Kreia chastises you and right after she mentions her lines, another guy comes up and beats the one you gave money to in order to steal the money

>Don't give money: The guy who asked proceeds to attack another guy.

>>13947158

I don't care that the canon MC option is the girl - having her means having the boring Disciple, gimme Handmaiden any day.

>>13956800

Just look at the Galactic Republic. A thousand years of peace, eh?

>>13956836

>Their world doesn't NEED jedi, and would be better off without them.

opinions without arguments

>>13948708

>>13953661

>>13955207

>>13947265

>Jedi are sith because they kill sith

Great going, dips hits.

>>13956874

Kek if anything it sounds like not giving money vindicates you because it shows the guy is just a thug. That even if you gave the guy money and nothing bad happened to him what would he do in a week, or a month from then when you're no longer around? Mugging someone else.

>>13956877

Exactly, they got sloppy due to the long peace, and their attempts as suppressing their enemy failed, causing a catastrophic upset and the rise of the Galactic Empire. Anakin/Vader was required to do what amounts to something like a complete system reset so that the cycle of conflict could begin again.

In theory, anyways. Who knows exactly where Lucas planned on taking things, but from what I heard the Empire was going to be made out to be not that bad after all in light of some existential threat, so maybe a reset would have involved a complete destruction of the previous society first.

>>13956894

Too bad for you its more of an objective fact since any instalment in the series wether it be a book, movie or game focuses on conflicts between the sith / jedi.

Remove them and you would pretty much remove 80% of the conflict from the universe.

>>13956933

>Who knows exactly where Lucas planned on taking things

I've wondered this about the prequels. Did 20th centry fox force lucas to make the prequels and that's why it was rushed or did Lucas have all the power and funding and the prequels are in the "it's all lucas's fault" territory

>>13956836

>In a sense, that's what she did with the exile.

Except for the part where she "sacrificed" herself to teach the exile some vague lesson about nothing, leaving the universe with nothing but a number of people left to carry on her teachings that can be counted on one hand, who bioware then killed off like bitches to serve the same old childish notions of good and evil that the series started out on

If Kreia was smart enough she would have orchestrated events that carried echoes in the real world, that people couldn't just ignore when writing subsequent games and books

>>13956899

In the game, it's specifically a more black and white light side/dark side choice, where you either give him cash or threaten to kill him, perpetuating a needless cycle of retarded violence is what Kreia chastises you for, essentially a meta-commentary on both star wars morality and dumb "jesus or baby-rapist" moral choices in vidya

>>13956960

It could be a combination of both, but iirc Lucas had a lot of not-so-stellar ideas that he wasn't able to ruin the original trilogy with due to budget and technological restraints. Stuff that didn't even make it into the re-releases. I'm no expert on the subject, though. In all honesty, the prequels are only mediocre, not horrible. They only seem horrible in light of the decade or so of hype and mystery built around them and in light of the achievements of the original trilogy. It could have been way worse than it was.

>>13955844

Remember Reapers? Remember when they used to be scary mechanical eldritch abominations instead of a rouge AI?

I miss those times.

>>13952727

So because someone who knew nothing about her were afraid of what she could do that means she could? No. Again: The Exile as special to her BECAUSE he was ripped from the force, she had nothing to do with it and he wouldn't be very special if she could just do it herself now would he?

>>13955844

>played Mass Effect as it came out, though avoided 3 because of how terrible I heard it was

>Star Warsfag

>Mass Effect 2 is my favorite

>go back through the series later, now a Star Trekfag, older, wiser

>Mass Effect 1 is amazing

>start up Mass Effect 2

>I have to stop after a few hours because of how terrible it is compared to 1

>now Mass Effect 1 is my favorite

I'm willing to bet most anons who like Mass Effect 2 haven't played it and the original recently. Mass Effect 1 was by far the best.

>>13957209

Ah, the evolution of Star Warsfag to Trekfag is always fun to watch. When did you realize that Star Wars is for children, anon?

>>13957238

Mid-way through TNG. Picard makes the Jedi look like children.

>>13956979

I agree. but you forget Kreia just wanted to rest in peace, was tired, and passed the torch rather than build a gray jedi covenant.

>>13956894

>remove jedi/sith

>majority of conflict in their universe is gone

Not even an opinion. This is a fact.

>>13956052

>RPG

>linear

Fuck Japan for ruining an entire genre.

>>13956994

Oh, like what's happening now? At least each Prequel substantially expanded the universe.

>>13957438

Does that mean "bringing balance to the Force" just involves killing everyone with ties to the Jedi and Sith?

>>13949016

>>13947001

I disagree with the whole apathy is death thing. This is a situation where the only winning move is not to play. You can't overthrow the Jedi council OR eliminate the force because then you are only creating yet more war and strife. If you ever seek to gain control all you are really doing is adding yet another faction who wants to force their way on things. The only right thing to do is abstain from the inevitable conflict and the only way to do that is to go into hiding.

I also generally disagree that the force will force people to one extreme or the other. While it's clear that grey Jedi can become Sith, that's just as true for normal Jedi and there's not really enough evidence to suggest they are more susceptible. Basically it comes down to whether it is easier to avoid temptation through total abstinence or moderation.

And really, war happens with or without the Force. While the Star Wars franchise is clearly all about Force wars do you really think that eliminating the force itself would stop anything? People are more than capable of killing each other without magical powers and as the history of humanity has taught us there is absolutely no way to stop that. You can argue that the Force is evil because it inevitably guides people towards war, but getting rid of it doesn't solve anything, you just end up with people fighting without fate guiding them to it.

>>13946877

You know, OP, whether you think Kreia is right, wrong, retarded, or an edgy authorial avatar, it's certain at this point that she provokes discussion. Which may have been a point of her to begin with.

>>13946877

She's a stupid old cunt with plot-powers (kill-3-master-jedi-efforlessly) that I wanted to throw out of the airlock the second we go on the ship.

>>13957474

No. Bringing Balance to the Force only means destroying those that use the Force selfishly and the Dark Side. Killing the Jedi and Sith would ensure permanent balance as no Jedi would fall to the Dark Side.

>>13957474

light side was winning. Anakin murdering nearly every jedi did bring it into balance

>>13958725

No you idiot, it has nothing to do with 'the light side' winning. The Force *is* the light side.

>>13958730

then what's the dark side?

>>13958738

An imbalance of the Force.

>>13957209

>never bother playing ME1

>only had played 2 and a bit of 3

>friend convinces me to play 1 and go through the entire trilogy

>play 1

>standard soldier

>im having a blast, weapon/armor customization

>when you get too much combat you get some story

>when theres too much talking you get a nice dose of combat

>stay addicted to this switch between intrigue and combat like a cokehead

>no other game offered this experience again.

>>13958752

so the dark side is indeed the force

also, you're attempting to assert something without evidence

also, what of the rakata, who merely used the force as a tool for whatever ends without consideration for its morality?

>>13958820

The Dark Side is a perversion of the Force, created when people use the Force selfishly as a tool.

>what of the rakata

You mean the cannibal species that constantly fought themselves until a 'plague killed all of them at the same time they overused the Force to the point where they could no longer use it?

If you're going to use the Rakata as evidence, I'm going to use anakin in ep 3 and how he got corrupted by the Dark Side.

>>13958730

>the force/light side is a completely unnatural state of being for humans where they suppress all of their emotions and desires

…And why do people consider the Force good again?

>>13958863

Because people think that the Jedi and altruism is a standard of good. Within the structure of Star Wars, there is literally no reason to think the 'Force' itself is 'good'. The Sith are just seen as evil because they kill much more people for no reason compared to the Jedi.

The Force is an energy field that controls everything to the point where chance itself does not exist. It corrupts anyone that tries to use it selfishly and the only way to use it is to give up your emotions and ego, becoming a slave to the Force.

The Force simply destroys the Dark Side of the Force and those that use the Force selfishly, so that the Force returns to the status quo. This is what is known as bringing balance to the Force, not an equilibrium between both sides. By the end of Return of the Jedi, balance was achieved.

Hell, in Revenge of the Sith, Windu even says that their abilities to use the Force is diminishing. The Dark Side is cancer that kept growing. It has nothing to do with the number of either the Jedi or Sith side, but the destruction of the Dark Side.

I've never heard of her, but this sounds stupid.

How does one destroy the force? What we are led to believe is an intrinsic force of the universe.

>>13958910

Don't take 'destroying the Force' literally. It meant destroying the influence the Force has on the galaxy. Kreia wanted to create an echo that would force everyone in the galaxy to either sever their connections to the Force, like the Exile did on Malachor V, or die. But such a shock would kill basically the entire galaxy. But if people were to survive such an apocalypse, they would no longer be able to center themselves and use the Force. If no one could use the Force, then no Jedi and Sith. No wars.

That's what it means to destroy the Force.

>>13958910

If you want to understand her, watch this video >>13946942

>>13958850

>I'm going to use anakin in ep 3 and how he got corrupted by the Dark Side.

And then immediately brought objective balance to the force

>>13958949

Fucking idiot, look at the entire of Star Wars instead of Revenge of the Sith.

He brought balance to the Force in Return of the Jedi by destroying the Sith. It has nothing to do with the number of Jedi in existence.

This is why Star Wars is a story about 'good' versus 'evil' with good always winning.

>>13958960

>He brought balance to the Force in Return of the Jedi by destroying the Sith

And also the jedi, in that same trilogy, leaving solely Luke, who learned from the mistakes of both sides

Granted, Yoda's death was more incidental than anything, but was still indirectly his fault

>>13958973

>And also the jedi, in that same trilogy, leaving solely Luke, who learned from the mistakes of both sides

Irrelevant. Luke is a Jedi.

>I am a Jedi, like my father before me

His unorthodox training does not matter. The Jedi won in the end. Balance was achieved as the Sith were destroyed.

You keep bringing up that Anakin brought balance in Revenge of the Sith when he didn't. The number of Jedi do not matter.

>>13958984

>Irrelevant. Luke is a Jedi.

Who takes an enlightened "alt-centrist" route

You forget we're talking about "Jedi" and "Sith" not in terms of just the titles, but in terms of the light and dark, you obstinate cunt

>>13959003

>Who takes an enlightened "alt-centrist" route

lol no. Prove me he took that route.

>You forget we're talking about "Jedi" and "Sith" not in terms of just the titles, but in terms of the light and dark, you obstinate cunt

I did not forget anything. The Sith use the Force selfishly and were destroyed, bringing balance to the Force.

If Balance is too hard for you, then change the wording to 'bringing harmony to the Force'.

>>13959017

>lol no. Prove me he took that route.

His embracing of humanity and relatively liberal use of dark side force abilities after the OT, which as far as I'm aware is even a thing in the far more controlled disney canon

>If Balance is too hard for you, then change the wording to 'bringing harmony to the Force'.

You keep trying to explain it as if I don't perfectly understand what you mean

>>13958923

Literally trillions would die but in the end the universe would be a far better place. The force literally controls the minds of all who use it, it is like an addictive drug. In a Universe with the force free will can't exist and all things happen due to the force. In the Star Wars universe everyone is a slave without realizing it and that is why no progress happens.

>>13958923

That sounds phenomenally stupid. Kill trillions of people to stop war. Which won't actually stop war, just war started by these two particular factions.

So in the end, kill trillions to accomplish nothing.

>>13959233

Killing trillions to be free.

>>13959404

Free of what? Ideas?

>>13959404

But nobody would be free in any quantifiable sense. Kreia even said it in the game (echoing Vader a bit) that the struggle of the Jedi and Sith is essentially the struggle for the heart of Man. If it's the human condition that echoes itself in the force, then the only way to stop the force from perpetuating the Jedi-Sith crap would be to a) make people face a conscious choice to turn away from the Force (which only the Exile could, and she succeeded only because she had a talent in that area), dooming almost everybody in the galaxy who are dependent on the force for impetus; or b) not be human, transforming people into something utterly different.

Not very achievable, wouldn't you say?

>>13959428

Free of being mind controlled by the force and for people to actually have power over their lives instead of being ruled by the Jedi/Sith.

>>13959558

Okay, it's not mind control; they show in the very first movie what Force mind control looks like. What the Force does is essentially predeterminism.

>>13959558

Killing all the force sensitives wouldn't get rid of the force

It flows through all living things, penetrates them without their consent, whether they can feel it or not

>>13956933

The EU authors (not Lucas) and early set of official canon games (KOTOR, etc.) created the Yuuzhan Vong (the force-immune aliens from another galaxy), and the story arc around their invasion spanned dozens of books. It was stated in those that Palpatine knew about the coming invasion and created the Empire (instead of just ruling the existing republic) because he needed a unified military force to oppose them. This isn’t so much a “retcon” of the Empire’s purpose by third parties, because KOTOR II (which is/was canon) explicitly makes mention of a Vong scout ship (KOTOR takes place ~4000 years before the movies), so Palpatine could have easily gotten this data.

But the Empire was MUH NOAZZIES and has always been MUH NOAZZIES and you can’t show them ever being “good” in any context.

>>13959558

So instead they'll be controlled by philosophies and live under oppression by anyone who has more guns.

>>13959591

There is no meaningful distinction between the two

Predeterminism means free will does not exist, meaning all minds do only what the force wills them to

>>13959600

>KOTOR II (which is/was canon) explicitly makes mention of a Vong scout ship

What

>>13959641

Ectually, that was in the first game. Canderous mentions finding a living ship that then scarpered into the void.

>>13959617

Star Wars generally uses the Force's predeterministic tendencies to establish the concept of 'destiny'. The question of free will is left more ambiguous, unless you happen to be on the receiving end of a human using the force to rob you of yours.

>>13959613

That's better. The Star Wars universe has been stagnant for thousands of years. With the freedom to make their own choices people can actually push forward.

>>13959661

The force in the first movie was pretty clearly a space magic metaphor for god and christian values, which lands it pretty squarely in the "has a plan for all of us" camp

>>13959689

That's not solving the problem, that's just moving it.

And the Star Wars universe has been stagnant for thousands of years because of shitty writing and trying to not step on 'cannon' not because of some high minded stalemate.

>>13959613

>So instead they'll be controlled by the force and live under oppression by anyone who has more memechlorians.

Your statement is far too silly to reply to seriously.

>>13948733

Maybe in Star Wars they only had Cnn…

>>13959747

>That's not solving the problem

It definitely is helping it. Without the Jedi/Sith people will rule based on their own merits rather than if they were lucky enough to be born with force powers. Jedi and Sith rule simply because they are the Jedi/Sith. If you take that away than more competent people (even if competent means cunning, brutal, ect) can rule.

>>13959710

It's not sentient, per se - they made a conscious decision to not personify it despite the many motifs of Abrahamic religion being invoked. You could argue whether it's hard or soft predeterminism, but I can conclusively posit that it's not some 4D chess crap because that invalidates most everything in the movies e.g Vader's decision at the end of ROTJ.

>>13959659

Oh, was it? I knew it was Canderous, but I couldn’t remember when he said it. I guess he “never takes off his helmet” in the second one, right?

>>13959760

>Without the Jedi/Sith people will rule based on their own merits

Since when is leadership meritocratic? I'd refer you to LOGH which discusses the very possibility of setting up a dictatorship, only to conclude that the wrong guy will eventually get the job.

>>13959768

>but I can conclusively posit that it's not some 4D chess crap because that invalidates most everything in the movies e.g Vader's decision at the end of ROTJ.

His choice had meaning in the context of the movie, and to the people in his life

Just like in real life, I doubt many people in the star wars universe are theological nihilists, and that includes people like Kreia who actively thought the force was the space illuminati

Also, Vader's decision was literally prophecy

>>13959760

It isn't helping it either. You think removing the force is going to somehow destroy nepotism, greed, lust, or pride? You are simply killing people to change the flags people are going to die for.

I'm watching this Philosophy of Kreia and so far I have to say she is one of the dumbest motherfuckers I've ever listened to in my life. It's like listening to Holden Caufield call everyone else phonies while doing even stupider shit.

>>13959838

The prophecy was introduced in the same movie that brought us midichlorians unless I'm forgetting something, been a while since I watched the movies. Besides, given that bringing balance to the Force = preventing people from bending it to their will (imbalance), Anakin going DS and kickstarting an entire empire along with Sidious was definitely not part of the master plan.

>>13959791

Yis. It was akin to those old sailors' tales of turtle islands and the like, being an odd-looking asteroid his men landed on. Incidentally, Mandos not written by Karen Traviss are boss. Better than Klingons, even.

>>13959901

Off topic my DM made a mimic monster with a summoner class that summons monsters, we call it a Pandora's Box

I'm stealing that shit, it's cool

I'm going to take control of that mimic next session since my character died

>>13959901

Kreia didn't want to kill the jedi masters, just destroy their ideology, prove them wrong so hard that they could no longer deny it

She just didn't forsee them being the most stubborn dicks in the galaxy, willing to destroy the exile's connection to the force just to quell their own retarded fears

>>13959911

That's the thing about prophecy, it's never that specific

The goals of the prophecy were technically achieved twice, and at the end of it all there was no empire and palpy exploded into treats, balance was brought

>>13959960

>balance was brought

It was. At the cost of countless millions of lives.

>>13953133

She's a fictional character, you absolute retard. A man wrote her lines.

>>13959865

>ou think removing the force is going to somehow destroy nepotism, greed, lust, or pride?

No, it just means there are ways for other people to gain power. Say what you will but the world we live in today is far better than the one the people of SW live in.

>>13959984

Yep

Nobody ever said the "balance" was a good thing

Obi-Wan realized as much when he fought Anakin, they were Jedi that were viewing the prophecy through the lens of their teachings instead of thinking about it objectively

>>13960086

>someone else realizes that the Galaxy of Star Wars is an awful place to live in

Even 40K's is sounding a little better, and its God of Fate is actively evil.

>>13960086

Did you just forget that blasters and ships exist? There are plenty of people in SW that have power that don't have the force or even martial ability.

Mind you this is also assuming you ignore the blatantly shitty writing that makes force users able to effortlessly destroy armies or planets with the snap of a finger. Which I try to as often as possible.

>>13960397

The original trilogy, despite being well-constructed movies, was social commentary and the Empire were Nazis. And as we all know here, Hitler did nothing wrong (except lose the war). Princess Leia is a bitchy female political figure and never displays much respect for any of the male characters until the medal ceremony at the end of the first movie. She still has hella attitude after that. The bad guys are human supremacists (white supremacists) and the good guys are a mix of all kinds of species/races.

It's been pozzed since day fucking one. It's just more blatant now.

>>13960461

>Nazis

Uhhh, you realize our autistic boy George saw the Emperor as Nixon and wanted to make a Vietnam War movie, right /pol/? Also, the human supremacy came up in the EU for cheap baddie points and eventually unrolled from there.

>>13960461

>the Empire were Nazis

No, they were stock villians who had Fascist aesthetics. The movies were about a blonde haired aryan farm boy who redeems his father by rejecting the (((dark side)))

You're playing into the kike's narrative, Star Wars was not always pozzed. Hell, the Prequels basically name the Jew.

>>13960534

Heh, when you put it that way, Darth Plagueis shows that the Rule of Two Sith were full of those sort of subversive (((tricks))). Albeit much more adroit at using them, since they deliberately cut down on infighting and making sure only strong, crafty apprentices took charge.

>>13960461

>Except lost the way

With retarded strategies. He would have made a horrible long term economic leader.

>B-But he increased Germany's economic state by not paying off debts and starting a war machine that totally works long term

Movie about KOTOR/KOTOR2 when

Would shit on lowest common denominator Star Wars shit anytime of the day

>>13946877

>What is /v/'s opinion of Kreia

shes super old, would not bang

>>13951173

>If she succeeded everyone would die

Fixed. Did you people fail to pay attention to how the Exile connects to the force through other people like a benign Nihilus?

>>13946942

>>13946877

this french faggot wont stop making threads and talking to himself it seems

>>13959901

IT was shit. The entire premise is shit.

The "wound in the force" premise was shit

Kreia and her ideology was shit.

Darth Nihilus was shit.

It had nothing to do with SW I watched as a kid.

It was a turd that stupid people flock to to masturbate intellectually, because they think themselves so smart and it being so deep.

>>13962344

They're the central reasons in Star Wars.

>>13946877

Reminder that all she had to do to get rid of the force was to burn that tree down.

>>13956715

>that never happened though?

Play the game again.

>>13962923

You are talking about a fiction universe with blatant good vs evil nigger.

>>13962923

There would be less wars in the Star Wars galaxy. I didn't say wars would end, but that the endless amount of wars fought between the Jedi and Sith, which is almost always the central conflict in Star Wars, would end.

>>13962952

>There are many wars in star wars that have nothing to do with the force. They are just rarely focused on.

That's because they're mostly unimportant. Ignoring the Yuuzhan Vong obviously.

Regardless of everything, everyone will agree that the Jedi and Sith are the core of Star Wars.

And if you examine what both represent, they represent the Master-Slave morality dichotomy. Applied to our world, as Nietzsche argued, all conflict revolve around that. So it's not too far of a stretch to say that all cultural arguments and memetics revolve those two sides.

>>13946877

I know nothing about Star Wars lore. I don't care either. I'm automatically cooler than you.

>>13962952

>Isn't that exactly what she demonstrates?

Nah she takes her own failures and that of others to live with the Sith and Jedi code and argues thats the codes fault, but in reality she is just a loser.

She complains that the Sith and Jedi rely on the Force for everything, yet she is addicted and dependent to have a dogma that explains the world to her.

Also the huge elephant in the room is that for every Jedi falling to the Dark Side, there are hundreds of Jedi who have no problem following the Code.

Equally the Sith, for every "force choke your pregnant waifu that you try to protect" Anikin there are hundreds of Sith that got liberated by the Force to have a kick ass live, who without it would have quickly died as some noname gutter rat.

>>13964163

>the Boss

>Not Solidus.

>>13964289

Sounds like you would be a dark side cuck then

>>13964163

>The boss

>Solidus

>Adachi

sure, women are cunts if you mean by being right. but adachi was a psychopath who did wrong.

Kreia had the ultimate ubermensh philosophy

>get as strong as you can but strength depending on others will doom you to failure

>use allies to gain your goals but never depend on them fully

same with force

>use it as a tool but don't depend on it alone when solving your problems

Literally "be independent and strong"

>>13964341

>There's no logical reason for having your force powers be limited in strength because you haven't fully dedicated yourself to one of two strict ways of thinking.

Think of it in the terms of mental body building, to stay fit you need to have the right diet and follow a training regime and keep at it your entire live.

Now since the Force can be manipulated by Will and Emotions, the Jedi and Sith train in a way to strengthen their mind and character.

>>13964616

>Now since the Force can be manipulated by Will and Emotions, the Jedi and Sith train in a way to strengthen their mind and character.

Exactly, I agree.

>There's no logical reason for having your force powers be limited in strength because you haven't fully dedicated yourself to one of two strict ways of thinking.

>one of two strict ways of thinking.

You can find your own path to enlightenment without having it forced down your throat and walled in by rules. Only cucks follow the easy set-out path with other peoples morals that you have to abide by.

>>13964616

It's just two different disciplines in the same martial art.

I'm not going to practice the "power for any price" edgelord-jutso which is just a one man journey to ruling the universe, unless you get backstabbed before that which the sith code condones and happens 999999999% of the time.

And while the Jedi's moralfaggotry is well meant at heart it also creates a whole special brand of uppity faggots obsessed with their rules. The enforced way of living and refusal to experiment with any techniques they deem to be "dark" even though it's all the same force.

>>13953133

>Maxist space jew

>>13964542

>ultimate ubermensh philosophy

Your truths are dependent on your perspectives. It'd be nice to see a force user who actually understood that and broke from the whole dichotomy *and* the fence sitting nerfed greyness and excelled in mastering all aspects available to them.

Doesn't matter now, Disney poz trash is all that's left, might as well just burn it all.

>>13964295

>implying Solidus wasn't wrong as fuck

>>13965691

>It'd be nice to see a force user who actually understood that and broke from the whole dichotomy *and* the fence sitting nerfed greyness and excelled in mastering all aspects available to them.

That's the Exile, the only person in Star Wars that broke the dichotomy by caring more about its life than power yet was life affirming.

>>13966590

Bioware didn't write Kotor 2 you dumb shit.

>>13966571

you can literally ask her what's wrong with her eyes

>>13966571

>if you go into first person mode with her you see force signatures rather than the world around you.

WHAT

>>13964341

>they both sacrifice the wrong things for power

Nigger you so dumb, they both pursue power that is the entire reason for this whole mess in Star Wars. In the face of ultimate power the best answer is to simply walk away.

I always found it funny how the effects of the Mandalorian Wars were much more prominent in kotor2 which was set decades after the war. While in kotor 1 nobody seems to talk about the Mandalorian Wars.

Although in kotor1 I suppose there's a bigger threat of the Jedi Civil War going on that people aren't caring to talk about past wars.

>>13967154

>In the face of ultimate power the best answer is to simply walk away.

This. The Force is literally magic and can do anything. You essentially give up your humanity no matter what you do to wield it. Give up your ego to be in tune with the Force? Congratulations, you're zen and disconnected from all of life. Use your passion to wield the Force as a tool? Congratulations, you've slowly given up your humanity for power and are now a hollow being only desiring power. Think both sides are shit but still want to keep your power? Congratulations, you've exiled yourself from all of life and become a rock rather than exiled yourself from the Force itself to live.

The Force itself is literally the entire problem with Star Wars. There's no winning against such a thing. And because human nature is horrible susceptible to power, hardly anyone can walk away from it. Who doesn't want to Force push people with your mind or zap them?

But when you lay it all out that you're giving up your humanity for power and that the Force manipulates the entire galaxy to destroy those that use the Force selfishly, people act reasonable. It makes me think that the only reason people aren't wary of the Force is because they don't understand the full ramification happening in Star Wars.

>>13967533

It takes time for people to heal wounds and realize how badly the war had damaged everything. And Revan almost immediately invading with an almost unlimited Sith fleet made everyone focus on the issue at hand. Both the Mandalorian wars and the Jedi Civil war destroyed the galaxy so bad that everything was on the brink of death. Decades past after the wars and you're living in the echoes you were a part of, trying to forget. And everyone around you is trying to cope with how a handful of people destroyed everything.

>>13967532

Force sense isn't really needed to see that

She said all throughout the game that she wasn't a Sith, even after she stopped biding her time and hiding she never stopped saying that

She was only what she had to be, because the galaxy always needs a Darth Traya

>>13967657

It might not be 'needed' but it gives confirmation. Too many people see Kreia as a true 'grey' in the middle throughout the game and fail to notice when she does show her colors on Dantooine. Kreia did not have to sacrifice herself, but she did it for the sake of the galaxy. She died a true Jedi.

>>13967681

>when she does show her colors on Dantooine

The only thing she shows on Danty is that she's willing to kill to protect you, which is less of a revelation about her and more about just how important you are to her and her goals

She spends like all of her dialog espousing that machiavellian philosophy that everyone also attributes to Revan, her prized student, it's not exactly a huge turn in her character

>>13963965

>I didn't say wars would end

You literally said

>13958923

>If no one could use the Force, then no Jedi and Sith. No wars.

You need to specify next time, because you didn't make clear just what you were saying.

>>13967768

>The only thing she shows on Danty is that she's willing to kill to protect you

No, I mean before she literally shows up to confront the Jedi Masters, Visas sees her 'true colors' with her Force Sight.

>>13969797

Fine fine, no repetitive wars between the Jedi and Sith, which are usually the central conflict in the galaxy, causing millions of death each generation, as is controlled by the Force.

>>13970010

Didn't v-sauce think she was 100% evul like everyone else