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File: 49eed776181aa3d⋯.png (43.58 KB,550x287,550:287,illusionism-free-will.png)

287aba No.7145

1. Necessarily, if God foreknows that I will do X, then I will do X.

2. God foreknows that I will do X.

3. Necessarily, I will do X.

Is this accurate? because if it is, it's invalid. It would be valid if the consequent of premise 1 were "then necessarily I will do X," but why would it be? It's conceivable that were you not to do X, but instead Y, God's foreknowledge would simply have been different, such that Y would simply be the new X. Why is this not the case? Why do you have to do something simply because God knows you're going to do it? Why can't you just do whatever you want, freely, and God's foreknowledge not change -- but be -- accordingly? What could possess people that such a stupid line of thinking otherwise be so popular?.

____________________________
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855401 No.7150

God only acts as a driver or director not a chooser

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1eb9c2 No.7153

>>7150

I was all excited to read a stimulating reply and this is what you give me?

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c7c5dc No.7156

Omniscience is a stupid idea. Gods exist in conceptual forms and attempts to anthropomorphize them are symptoms of myopic anthropocentrism. Even more asinine is the idea that there exists some omni-everything father figure who runs the universe like some kind of king.

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7b0e79 No.7157

>>7156

Imaging God as having will of some kind is sufficient, else you're just rejecting the entire concept in favor of some kind of naturalistic pantheism. Ironicallly all so you can believe it's everyone else that's stupid. You also presuppose perception of God is conception, and therefore that He doesn't really exist. Get the fuck out of my thread you stupid autist.

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7aee71 No.7158

>>7157

>sufficient

for what?

>You also presuppose perception of God is conception, and therefore that He doesn't really exist

You are ignorant.

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8ee150 No.7159

>>7158

sufficient to be God, obviously. Also, nice rebuttal

>you are ignorant

Kill yourself; you're hardly alive anyway, and you're only dragging people down with you by being able to speak in your "conscious" state.

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663d1a No.7160

Yeah, it's totally invalid. I was converted to determinism after reading Chrysippus (I had had the same insight as he but could not articulate it rationally besides saying "if something happened it was because that was the true future") and I still believe in free-will. When I try to explain compatibilism to people they usually laugh and say it's a ludicrous idea (again, I'm not very articulate...) but it's very clear to me that having a true future which is the only possible one does not mean that we lack free choice. The kind of determinism that makes free choice non-viable are the ones that impinge directly on the will, biological determinism and so on.

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f4d9af No.7172

>>7157

I don't see any evidence in nature that would point to there being a single unified will behind everything.

If God is omnipotent, and omnipresent, what could God be but the universe itself?

The universe is not a self-aware entity, because it has no need to be; it simply IS, and that is enough for us to all be suspensions within it.

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3b8fd9 No.7186

>>7172

wtf are you on about reddit-spacer?

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855401 No.7187

>>7153

I was probably tired that night

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6f7398 No.7191

What about Gods free will though? He could choose to let you choose.

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559723 No.7204

>>7145

I just got into this argument with a Calvinist. I think premise 2 is the most suspect. You've implied subtly that God's form of knowing is like the human form of knowing. You've also ruled out the possibility that God chooses to be ignorant of certain things, which He would uniquely be able to do, since he is omnipotent.

You could live in one of many universes based on your hypothesis:

>1) Hard Determinism, God knows everything, free will is a fiction

>2) God would foreknow everything, but he chooses ignorance in order to maintain your free will.

>3) God's knowledge transcends the human understanding of knowledge, therefore there is no incompatibility.

>4) This is a form of Schrodinger's cat style thought experiments, but God can look inside the Schrodiner's cat experiment without collapsing the probability wave.

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1ce480 No.7205

File: 63fe3f3c788b94f⋯.png (82.76 KB,238x233,238:233,76d5d0957e5b080567f8fa3ad1….png)

>>7145

That's simple.

God is outside time. Therefore everything that exist is in him in an "eternal present". There can be no past or future for God, who is perfect and can't have change. You do X because you determine yourself, then God knows this from all eternity because he sees everything in an instant (or else he is not perfect). Hope this answers you.

Now, how are we free ? Because we can become God image, which mean we can free ourself from this world. And are our actions free from determination from this world ? Yes, because God can act through us (and ultimately he is the one acting through the determinations of this world but that's another story) and in God we can be free from anything external to us (as saint Augustine said, God is more intimate to ourself than we are to ourself).

So, don't be so quick judging free will. Free will is the truth but there is no free will outside of God. Why ? As saint Gregory of Nyssa (a father of the Church) said, we can realise we are the image of God, and one of the attributes the make us the image of God is our free will. But without God acting acting being our self, we can't be free, because he is freedom, and he is the freedom in us.

Why is God free ? Because he have no determination, he is what he want and nothing stop his freedom of will.

Hope I'm clear.

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cce5d5 No.7325

God knows all possible outcomes of your free choice.

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f817c4 No.7364

File: ca4cf40b2fa29ce⋯.jpg (42.81 KB,456x468,38:39,9idfhdioifhdifjh.jpg)

the problem is pretty simple: if we stipulate God's omniscience to mean God satisfies all (supposedly) ideal epistemic conditions for knowledge (infallible, justified, reliable, true belief with respect to all propositions & their relata) then it follows necessarily if God knows you will x then it's true necessarily *that* you will x, which implies there's no possible world in which the agent has the capacity to x over y, and if we cache out free will contra-causally (the capacity to x over y in any possible world ceteris paribus), then by definition if God exists then free will cannot exist. and if free will exists then God cannot exist. the same problem applies to Gods agency himself.

one response is to adopt a compatibilist view of free will (freedom consists in the agents capacity sefl-regulate & self-determine their actions despite having no capacity to do otherwise - which is consistent with determinism). the problem with that in this context is the problem of source-hood. in what sense is the agent the source of his actions if God is the ultimate source of all creation & the metaphysics of source-hood itself? that implies (compatibilist) free will is only possible if God doesn't exist - if there is no metaphysical grounding to source-hood other than the agent themselves. in which case you get an intractible dilemma: either (compatibilist) free will exists which entails God's non-existence, or, (compatibilist) free will exists and God exists but God is causally impotent (epiphenomenal), but if God is epiphenomenal then God cannot create anything, but God is a creator by definition, therefore, via reductio to contradiction, God cannot exist. the same problem of source-hood applies to God himself only worse because you get a boot-strapping problem: God's source-hood would have to logically precede itself, which is incoherent.

another response would be to adopt theological determinism. problem here is determinism as a general thesis with respect to agency is incoherent because it implies an eliminative ontological reduction from agency to mechanism. basically, if determinism qua determinism is true, then agency is reducible to disposition (like a rock), which voids agency altogether. since agency is intrinsically 1st personal and disposions are intrisically 3rd personal there can't be any reduction. this is a problem regardless of whether God exists or not & applies to God himself.

another response is open theism, which says God doesn't know the truth-value of future contingents. the future is genuinely open. number of problems with this too. 1st it contradicts Gods omniscience from the outset. 2nd it generates a boot-strapping/regress problem (Gods non-knowledge of future contingents are always indexicalized to his present knowledge which he can't have given either is omnitemporality or atemporality + he'd have to know that he knows ad infinitum).

another response is molinism. also fucked.

https://useofreason.wordpress.com/2017/03/03/molinism-and-trivial-counterfactuals/

https://useofreason.wordpress.com/2017/11/21/molinism-and-the-grounding-objection/

https://useofreason.wordpress.com/2018/08/07/molinism-and-the-grounding-objection-part-2/

also, saying God is atemporal (outside time) is irrelevant. the point is there is a logical incompatibility with respect to *creaturely freedom* if God is omniscient. the force of the argument marches on regardless of Gods ontological relation to time. more fundementally, tho, if God is atemporal then he can't have any agency, since agency presuposses temporality & causation. and he can't be omnitemporal either because that's incompatible with is immateriality.

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f817c4 No.7365

>>7364

finally, saying God knows all possible outcomes is useless. the argument explicitly accepts that per the definition of Gods omniscience. God knows all possible outcomes of all possible worlds which implies his knowledge of all outcomes in the actual world at which the agent actions x.

there's a shit son to be said about this problem and the shitty apologetics which go with it but i got bored half-way through typing this. did phil of religion zoinks ago. tl;dr whichever way you look at it g0d is dumdum ur al fagets red sum shit or kys

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

https://www.iep.utm.edu/omnisci/

https://philpapers.org/browse/divine-foreknowledge

https://philpapers.org/browse/philosophy-of-religion/

https://www.skepticink.com/humesapprentice/2013/04/02/proving-the-negative-a-list-of-arguments-for-atheism/

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2016/02/15/bibliography-on-arguments-for-atheism/

https://infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/arguments.html

https://www.scribd.com/document/380702045/Handbook-of-Atheistic-Apologetics-pdf

http://www.strongatheism.net/library/references/

http://www.disproofatheism.org/

https://jonathandavidgarner.wordpress.com/

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=1911

http://exapologist.blogspot.com/

https://hughjidiette.wordpress.com/

https://philosophicaldisquisitions.blogspot.com/

http://worldviewnaturalism.com/debates/

http://counterapologist.blogspot.com/

http://www.provingthenegative.com/

https://www.invidio.us/channel/UCQa6mPLOE2yuMCrDjRio_nA

http://counterapologetics.blubrry.net/

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/doubtcast/reasonable-doubts - skip to counter-apologetics section

https://www.invidio.us/channel/UCNQ8-4-ydMyDLC21TENHCrw

https://www.invidio.us/channel/UCwbA80IQy8pfbil09XiBKfw

https://www.invidio.us/results?search_query=counter-apologetics

philosophy of religion a guide and anthology brian davies

philosophy of religion: a critical introduction beverley & brian clack

graham oppy has some decent stuff too

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7327e8 No.7368

>>7325

gott ist tott

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1a30b4 No.7431

>>7145

That pic reminds me of part of the story What's expected of us by Ted Chiang

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