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File: 1451990559803.jpg (35.06 KB,480x640,3:4,1423024347220.jpg)

48e0c1 No.3260 [Last50 Posts]

Could someone please disprove solipsism?

____________________________
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48e0c1 No.3261

>>3260

A genealogy of yourself should be all you need. If you're stupid enough to buy into solipsism it is only because you're stupid enough to believe you somehow knowingly and unknowingly made yourself and the whole world you're in, yet not seeing that realizing this still doesn't confer you any power and hence is just a stupid mind game you're playing with yourself to not get shit done.

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48e0c1 No.3306

File: 1452145746257.jpg (35.49 KB,450x470,45:47,stock-photo--d-render-of-a….jpg)

>>3261

yeah, but like, power is meaningless, man.

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48e0c1 No.3320

File: 1452231824269.jpg (145.05 KB,877x637,877:637,solipsism.jpg)

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48e0c1 No.3323

>>3320

>not wooing her by living a modest and virtuous life

wew lad.

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48e0c1 No.3332

Kant furnishes a tentative empirical proof of the existence of external objects by arguing that, since time and space aren't perceptible by themselves but only by their content, and yet we perceive inner change, there must be an unchanging external component from which we derive this perception by comparison.

In my opinion, his proof isn't that convincing because the solipsism rises precisely from the ill-defined demarcation between inner and outer phenomena. If appearances aren't trusted, such that any and everything that happens might be an illusion, then there's nothing stopping me from equivocating "I" and "the world". On the other hand, by undermining all things in such a extreme way, I don't see what either "I" or "the world" would mean. Whatever I call by this words would never appear to me in experience, otherwise it would either be an illusion, or indistinguishable from an illusion.

So to me it's a meaningless question. It can't be proved or disproved. But I believe, from the history of philosophy, that it's possible that some description of the world might be created such that there's nothing but "I" (Fichte's idealism) or "world" (Iron Age philosophy and mysticism, Schopenhauer's idealism).

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48e0c1 No.3355

>>3260

Off topic, but related to OP's image. How many of you here think it's completely true that her boyfriend of a few years ago is the one that pushed her into doing porn which she never really wanted to do? Everyone thought the pic was a joke, how could a porn star that did so many demeaning shoots like hers have any serious thought in her head? Anyone think philosophy might have been a big impetus for her to get out of porn?

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48e0c1 No.3357

>>3355

I think it's the opposite

She tried to get into philosophy after quitting porn

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48e0c1 No.3358

>>3355

Oh, that's someone I was supposed to know?

Besides, doing demeaning stuff does not an idiot make.

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48e0c1 No.3359

>>3260

>implying it's falsifiable

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48e0c1 No.3377

I can't believe every body is slinging this good shit, you can not disprove solipsism with logic, that it's self could be a product of the observer.

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48e0c1 No.3378

>>3260

It's kind of like...

A solipsist will believe that they are the only conscious being, that they are the only one whose mind truly exists, but that assertion is just as baseless as the assertion of God.

If we're speaking PROOF, then you should always try to prove a positive, rather than proving a negative.

The invalidity and inapplicability requires a greater burden of proof than the validity and applicability.

Other than that, there's no real way of disproving that you're the only conscious being because it's like the matrix theory, for every piece of evidence presented, you could just say "but that would be a part of the matrix, some false evidence coded into the matrix to trick me and make it feel real".

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48e0c1 No.3429

File: 1453192639074.jpg (265.58 KB,1440x1080,4:3,1420478201418.jpg)

>>3260

>I am educated because I read this book that broadly summarizes a field

Your picture is infuriating, OP. Maybe it's partially because I already know she's a ridiculous cunt.

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48e0c1 No.3439

>>3260

I was thinking about this earlier today for fun

Solipsism seems to come from Cartesian Cogito, not how >>3332 sees it, or some "ill-defined demarcation between inner and outer phenomena" or whatever whatever. None of that additional content is needed for solipsism, all is needed is doubt, and the Cartesian standard of proof.

If, as I see it, solipsism comes from this doubt and the Cartesian standard of proof for the existence of reality, then there are some obvious attack vectors. Attacking the Cogito(which has been done), attacking the standard of evidence for the existence of reality(which isn't done enough), and some other lesser ways.

Definitions: I take the Cogito to mean "I think therefore I am"

I take "Cartesian standard of doubt" to mean that if something can be doubted at all, then you can "withhold determination" regarding the existence of whatever the subject is. Example: If I can doubt apples, then I "withhold my determination of its existence"

I take Solipsism to mean the idea that only our minds cannot be doubted, and the existence of other minds can. In effect "only I exist".

Recap: Solipsism = false if Cogito == false or CartesianStandard == false

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48e0c1 No.3460

So I've been thinking about this, right?

You can't disprove solipsism, but maybe there's a way to attack a big motivation for why people would believe it. The idea that your mind is the only thing in existence, and that you're imagining everything else in the world, has a satisfying unification to it. There is only one thing in the universe: your mind. People like believing everything can be boiled down to one thing.

But, like, if part of your mind is consciously aware of your thoughts, and another part of your mind is sending imaginary information

to the other side and creating a hallucination of reality, what you effectively have is two minds, you and the thing making up information. I mean, you can call it a part of your mind, but honestly if it's disconnected from your thoughts to such an extent and has to run calculations apart from your mind in order to form a false reality, it's basically a separate entity. So now we have two things in the universe: you and the Cartesian demon. That's not nearly as satisfying as only your mind existing.

So in summary, solipsism requires part of your mind to act so separately from your consciousness that basically it's not only your mind existing.

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48e0c1 No.3486

>>3260

you are not everlasting

therefore something must have caused you

therefore something else must exist to cause you

therefore solipsism is false

fault me

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48e0c1 No.3488

>>3486

Who says that the rules of logic exist before, or after me?

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48e0c1 No.3490

>>3488

that depends on whether logic depends on you for its existence, which would make logic arbitrary

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48e0c1 No.3499

>>3486

there is a fault between premises 2 & 3

what if you caused yourself?

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48e0c1 No.3503

>>3499

because you were not existing for you to be able to cause yourself

something cannot come from nothing

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48e0c1 No.3507

>>3378

You can however point out contradiction in the theory as a skeptic would. I'm trying but my brains dead for now, just woke up. Whether it's convincing to the subject or not is irrelevant though. You can't ever be sure you'll convince a subject of anything anyway.

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48e0c1 No.3508

>>3439

/thread

Unless someone can improve it.

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48e0c1 No.3528

>>3503

>something cannot come from nothing

How do you know?

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48e0c1 No.3567

>>3439

If there's no distinction between inner and outer phenomena, then there's no "I" and there are no objects. There's only "something", which cannot be doubted to exist, because the "doubt" is something, and exists.

Another way to put it: solipsism is either the belief that only my mind and thoughts exists, or that external objects do not exist. You see now what is meant by "inner" and "outer"?

But both the dichotomy between me and the world and the doubt relating to it are necessary for solipsism.

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48e0c1 No.3581

>>3429

It's particularly infuriating that the book places such importance in Dostoevsky and Satre

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48e0c1 No.3665

>>3528

Is that not a logical impossibility?

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48e0c1 No.3669

>>3665

Since when did logic place demands on reality? Law of identity isn't a thing in quantum physics for instance.

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48e0c1 No.3710

>>3669

Aren't you now suggesting that logic is arbitrary and completely useless?

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48e0c1 No.3740

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48e0c1 No.3792

>>3378

Good points.

>>3710

This where the debate usually ends up. Solipsism deifies the logic you supposedly created, along with the rest of the universe.

>>3355

>>3429

Sasha was intelligent in the arena of self promotion. Not Like Jameson of course, but in that Grey pulled the art world trick of playing pretentious outsider to convince gallery shoppers that crap is worth buying. I recall many times she claimed that when she shouted stuff like "fuck me harder motherfucker" it was like, totes meta feminist deconstructionism.

She absolutely wanted to start in porn as a means to bigger things. Sadly she wasn't actually smart, talented or wise enough to reach her goals. Soderberg did cast her, but it was for an emotionally cold, vapid whore.

Meanwhile Asia Carrera was a legit genius who didn't demand attention for it or shit on her own industry while working in it.

(Yes I am also infuriated. Sorry.)

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48e0c1 No.3812

>>3792

but solipsism is based upon that logic

if solipsism disregards that logic, then why cant the idea that solipsism is false be equally valid?

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48e0c1 No.3822

>>3812

It would equally invalid as well.

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48e0c1 No.3829

My thought is that the existence of an external reality requires fewer assumptions, or is at least less contrived, than the idea of solipsism.

Wouldn't it be very peculiar for the universe to be such that precisely one and only one self-conscious subject exists?

Wouldn't it be even stranger, if we allow for the above, that that subject would be the sort of creature that needs to believe that s/he is not alone?

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48e0c1 No.3832

>>3792

Interesting stuff about Sasha Grey. Seems she's doing alright for herself despite her failed acting career. I looked up Asia Carrera, high IQ but not a genius (genius is an event for me).

>>3829

Solipsism is a form of incomplete, but near complete, skepticism. It requires less (abstract) assumptions than external realism since all it requires is I=I. Full Skepticism is just denial of everything's reality, truth, and value.

Your bit about being a being that feels a need for another, that's basically a way of getting at a genealogy of that kind of being.

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48e0c1 No.3929

>>3792

Sasha isn't that smart, she just likes to edit her wikipedia article so it says she's smart.

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Sasha_Grey

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48e0c1 No.4003

http://www.sfgate.com/living/article/Leaving-Porn-On-Her-Terms-Violet-Blue-Former-2527496.php

Jennie Ketcham has a more interesting story. She's not an idiot.

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48e0c1 No.4008

Look at your wall. Try to force it to be a different color with your mind.

Can't do it? Okay, clearly something resists your will, ergo parts of this existence are external to you.

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48e0c1 No.4009

>>4008

Stop ruining our thread about a mediocre former pornstar with your babby tier logic.

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48e0c1 No.4011

>>4009

Stop acting like some philosophical stonewall who has any right to speak with authority

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48e0c1 No.4014

>>4011

>rights

>authority

Christ, you're not just spooked. You're straight up possessed, son.

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48e0c1 No.4019

We must fight the white supremacist capitalist cisheteropatriarchy!

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48e0c1 No.4020

>>4008

This would assume that the will is the only part of the self, which the would-be solipsist wouldn't have to accept.

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48e0c1 No.4022

>>4019

I'll give you some tips to actually believably, and humourously, impersonate and tarnish my name since I don't use trips.

1) sage your shitpost, I always do.

2) say something to do with dialectics, Hegel, or Marxist theory. The more jargon, the better hidden is the vacuousness of your post.

3) insult retards like yourself by demeaning their status with words like "son, boy, spooked" etc

4) ¿...?

5) PROFIT

but there are also thread ids, so you should maybe just insult me directly instead of being a giant retard.

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48e0c1 No.4039

File: 1463489526360.jpg (62.81 KB,728x718,364:359,[Autism Intensifies].jpg)

>>4022

Self-deprecation does not cure being a cunt, contrary to popular belief.

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48e0c1 No.4048

>>4039

Being ^this retarded does not do you favors either, bruv. Mayhaps you should pull out ye old English, ye old fethered quill, and ye old shit-canned ink squirted from the abyss of the evolved tumor-like sack in your brain from which your thinking flows.

Maybe then you'll make me at least giggle, m8.

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48e0c1 No.4054

Kill the white oppressors!

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48e0c1 No.4086

Can you prove the world was not created last Tuesday?

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48e0c1 No.4087

If all things I experience are merely illusions created by my own mind, then what an illusion it is! I don't care if the world was or wasn't created from my own mind; I, as a philosopher, will study it anyways.

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48e0c1 No.4139

>>3260

I would but...

MRI scans and experimental brain sensors are really expensive

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48e0c1 No.4141

>>4139

You can't disprove it empirically. How do you prove MRIs and brain sensors are objectively out there?

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48e0c1 No.4143

>>4141

insert metal plate in dipshits skull

dare dipshit to "imagine" his skull being ripped apart 3 times or so

grab another dipshit, make him think theres a plate in his head, do the same thing

record results

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48e0c1 No.4174

>>3792

>mensa member this booty blasted

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10ce2f No.5733

>posting a pic of a pornstar

>cumdumpster

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10ce2f No.5734

>>3503

Epstimeological Ultilitarians unironically would disagree with the last one, but most of them belong in a meat grinder so...

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10ce2f No.5735

>>4014

what decides you're not crazy and they are? that's a spook in itself

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10ce2f No.5736

>>4019

feminists are too fat to fight anyone

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434fd7 No.5775

>>3260

I would, but I'm not sure any of you actually exist.

Since I'm not sure of anyone existing outside of myself, I will master myself and hope the rest of the universe falls in line.

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85d132 No.5780

File: 0491622f2799ba7⋯.jpg (96.75 KB,1024x630,512:315,Elmikko.jpg)

Sure. It's evil, which can be proven by the fact that its constantly pushed by the degenerates that rule the media.

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0b3a4b No.5791

>>3486

>you are not everlasting

How do you know? Maybe I will last forever. Maybe I have been here forever, and the perception of having been born is just a trick I played on myself?

>therefore something must have caused you

Cause and effect are extrapolated from everyday experience. This does not establish conclusively that every event must have a cause. Even if I had a beginning, I could've arisen spontaneously, without any cause.

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0b3a4b No.5792

>>5780

>It's evil, therefore it's false.

That's why murder doesn't happen either.

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b61566 No.5795

File: bd2209a274ec027⋯.jpg (88.05 KB,640x607,640:607,d9d7903a82a67c838c0534a4dd….jpg)

>>3260

Functionalism; since what makes the mind up isn't so much as the brain itself (species exist without brains, such as starfish) but rather the mind is a byproduct of what happens between electrical impulses, by replicating this, we can make an artificial mind or at the very least admit it is possible. By going off this, we raise doubts as to whether or not the mind of yourself is an actual mind, you might just be an android or some type of being that "thinks" but is not intended as an authentic mind. And since Descartes' demon is a thing, you can't actually be sure. Not enough to disprove solipsism, but enough to doubt it. You don't even know if you exist or are merely an abstraction tricking yourself into thinking you exist.

"I think, therefore I am" is wrong. It's more like "I think that I think, therefore I think that I think I am."

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61a22e No.5812

>>5795

Who's thinking?

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fcdd6f No.5859

>>3260

>Teleports behind you

>Kicks you in the shin

>"I refute it thus"

>"Nothing personnel Berkeley"

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54065c No.5864

>>3822

And thus we can determine that solipsism is a useless ontological model with no descriptive power.

Believing in it is the same thing as an admission of ignorance about the external structure of reality, and a desire to believe in whatever form you personally prefer.

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54065c No.5865

>>4020

Which is laughable. If the self can be separate and opposed or ignorant from the self then the self is a useless construct in this context with no discernable meaning.

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388665 No.5875

>>5795

You make a good overall observation, but in your conclusion lose the single most important element to Descartes' statement: Its simplicity.

Your mind could be an illusion, your apparent will nonexistent. But can it be proven in the absence of any minds to comprehend it? Should no minds exists, there cannot even be a perception of the passage of time. Was the wait to be born unbearable? There was no cognition, thus no perception at all. Any mind, even a "false" one, has to exist with some degree of physicality. This can be traditionally perceived physicality in a single unchallenged universe, or be an advanced computer, a Boltzmann brain, or a being's mind. As an aside, consider that a computer capable of perfectly simulating the (or simply a) universe is arguably indistinguishable from putting a box around the universe.

If a being is conceiving me as an idea, I exist. Within his mind, various processes run "me". I am describable by those processes, and more importantly by the abstract concept of "me" that now exists on its own.

If a simulating-computer or Boltzmann brain is running me, I do exist very much physically. One could take my awareness transpose it to the "higher" reality in which the brain/processor exists, which can be as simple as establishing outside contact.

There are incalculable variations, and they add so much complexity. Yet so simple a statement as "I think therefore I am" fundamentally PROVES existence, as well as the a degree of free will. You can will your body to move, you can perceive, you can think and conceive in this instant. And if you cannot, if there is no will, it is impossible to perceive it. And with even the highest degree of infinitely-recursive universes and simulations and imaginations, that your data exists in any form, that information at all exists, this is enough. In thinking, one exists. If the struggles are false, they are false, but then you have no more ability to believe or disbelieve than nothingness itself. Perceptions can be illusory, but fundamental existence of the mind in some form is not, and is uniquely provable solely in existing.

Seize the moment or fade back into non-being. You'll only be able to question your ability to think in one state.

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6b2f15 No.5880

>>3260

You'd have to prove it first.

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da80db No.5895

Is this old hippie rhetoric of "i am you, and you are me because we are all fragmentations of god's mind blah blah blah i am actually god" a form of solipsism?

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fece9e No.5899

Solipsism is real. That's why threads end as soon as I post in them.

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69e133 No.5910

The entire point of solipsism is that it

Can't

be disproved retard.

>>5899

No.

I am God.

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cb1752 No.5956

"self implies other"

- Alan Watts

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85a474 No.6076

If no one else existed then everything you encounter must be imagined by you. But how can you imagine shit you're not smart enough to understand?

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e61b87 No.6082

>>6076

Inborn knowledge, I am God (see >>5910)

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85a474 No.6083

>>6082

No, I am.

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67ac40 No.6086

>>5910 (You)

>>6076 (You)

>>6082 (You)

>>6083 (You)

No.

We are god.

t. Me myself and my proxies.

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4cb8cc No.6143

Lack of utility.

By adhering to solipsism you gain nothing by being correct, and lose everything by being wrong.

At least take a stance of utility, such as

>I am a biological creature and should eat and reproduce

>Ethics are of prime importance and I should behave properly

>Pain is of utmost importance and should be avoided

>Beauty is of utmost importance and should be fostered

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50c1e8 No.6145

To really do that you'd need to disprove the laws of thermodynamics lmao.

Statistically, Solipsistic beings should be everywhere. They probably aren't though.

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cb1752 No.6192

>>6145

>They probably aren't though.

But anon, that's just what a boltzman brain would say!

>>5875

Personally I think that the whole chain of argument relies too heavily on preexisting notions of reality. Sort of like the whole "white raven" counter-intuitive. If we consider the problem of radical doubt from a position of total ignorance then it would also seem there could be alternative explanations which do not invoke an idea of a substantive self, or of self processes such as thinking.

For instance (and please forgive me if this seems quite stupid I have no training in philosophy or logic) let us first not assume that whatever constitutes your Being necessarily involves anything we may believe it does. Thinking for one requires accepting more than a few other fundamental beliefs about the nature of things and Being. I your post you talk about thinking as something that occurs due to physical processes, which can occur thanks to time. However these concepts can be attacked to some degree. Time for instance, does Being actually necessitate time (or the appearance of time)? The gut reaction would be to say yes, but I am not entirely sure this is warranted. The way we believe we have of Being necessitates time it is true, but I believe I can conceive of a timeless sort of being. Imagine say if there was just a feeling or an impression of thought, of action, of movement, without any of it actually taking place. Or say consider that there may be non-physical things which give rise to the full experience of Being independent of thought, a "phenomenological spirit" if you will. These are just some poor examples which spring to my mind, I'm sure there are better reasoned and backed up arguments out there, and more still that one may not even be able to conceive of.

Again sorry if that sounds stupid, I am admittedly not all that bright. All I am really trying to say that once I well and truly doubted, and started to think of the huge space of unknown unknowns, I found myself unconvinced with the wording. My own formulation, vague and wishy-washy as it may be, would be "There is an impression, therefore something is". I can't find myself ceding that any of this, including myself, must be, only that at least one thing is.

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c2b1eb No.6241

>>3261

He said disprove solipsism, not call it stupid, idiot.

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1f4dd2 No.6242

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3e2505 No.6250

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e0ef6f No.6253

>>3260

No. The entire multiverse is one large interconnected system. So it's not so much that "I am the multiverse" as much as "the idea of a separate individual was factually incorrect to begin with and a bad assumption".

Next.

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ffbac4 No.6427

>>6253

>factually incorrect

Calling something "factual" doesn't make it "factual," you fucking idiot.

>Next.

You haven't said anything meaningful enough to warrant the arrogance necessary for the full stop at the end of a non-sentence. Kill yourself.

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b1c10a No.6429

1. If solipsism were true, you wouldn't be subject to the world.

2. You are subject to the world.

3. Therefore, solipsism is false.

You're welcome. Now the absurdist idiot can come along and show us how validity doesn't real. Any honest contention should spend equal effort discerning how this is sound as not.

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74db81 No.6451

>>6429

>You are subject to the world.

How so?

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