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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: b967a2c0ebdd624⋯.jpg (88.11 KB, 850x693, 850:693, question 5364564.jpg)

 No.95385

Hey /liberty/, I'm having trouble figuring out a concept in Hoppe's book.

>Now assume that aggressively founded ownership is introduced.

Whereas before every person was the exclusive owner of his body

and could decide on his own whether to become a drunk or a philosopher, now a system is established in which a person’s right to

determine how to use his body is curtailed or completely eliminated, and instead, this right is partly or fully delegated to another

person who is not naturally linked to the respective body as its producer. What would be the consequence of this? The abolition of

private ownership of one’s body can be far-reaching: the nonproducers can have the right to determine all of the uses of “my” body

all of the time, or their right to do so can be restricted with respect

to time and/or domains, and these restrictions again can be flexible

(with the nonproducers having the right to change the restrictive

definitions according to their own taste) or fixed once and for all,

and so the effects can, of course, be more or less drastic! But whatever the degree, socialization of ownership always, and necessarily

so, produces two types of effects. The first effect, “economic” in the

narrower sense of the term, is a reduction in the amount of investment in human capital as defined above. The natural owner of a

body cannot help but make decisions regarding that body as long

as he does not commit suicide and decides to stay alive, however

restricted his ownership rights might be. But since he can no longer decide on his own, undisturbed by others, to what uses to put

his body, the value attached to it by him is now lower; the wanted

satisfaction, the psychic income, that is to say, which he can derive

from his body by putting it to certain uses is reduced because the

range of options available to him has been limited. But then, with

every action necessarily implying costs (as explained above), and

with a given inclination to overcome costs in exchange for expected

rewards or profits, the natural owner is faced with a situation in

which the costs of action must be reduced in order to bring them

back in line with the reduced expected income. In the Garden of

On a critical assessment of the term “human capital,” in particular of the absurd

treatment that this concept has had at the hands of some Chicago-economists (notably G. Becker, Human Capital, New York, 1975), cf. A. Rubner, The Three Sacred

Cows of Economics, New York, 1970.

Hans-Hermann Hoppe 27

Eden, there is only one way left to do this: by shortening the waiting time, reducing the disutility of waiting, and choosing a course

of action that promises earlier returns. Thus, the introduction of

aggressively founded ownership leads to a tendency to reduce

investment decisions and favors consumption decisions. Put drastically, it leads to a tendency to turn philosophers into drunks.

Now I can see how the net satisfaction that one can derive from one's body would be reduced if he does not have exclusive ownership of it, but I don't see how it would make him favour consumption decisions over investment decisions. Because let's say that someone else can choose what ends he can put his body towards for 30% of the time, surely the remaining 60% of his time he is free to put his body to the ends that he wants and derive full satisfaction from them? Thoughts?

 No.95386

File: bae22ec7dd6887f⋯.webm (3.78 MB, 388x388, 1:1, extraterrestrial.webm)

>>95385

I don't see it either tbh


 No.95387

File: c8f42d9702751d5⋯.jpg (118.21 KB, 750x561, 250:187, e10de9K.jpg)

File: e7d1a4bcb4bf031⋯.jpg (113.04 KB, 620x339, 620:339, 1403137199643.jpg)

File: db6644aad0b1c67⋯.webm (1.66 MB, 320x400, 4:5, dd722377ac1c35d4147acd9b4….webm)

File: 711eae2866dff40⋯.jpg (84.2 KB, 498x594, 83:99, 15423860216660.jpg)

File: 80e394adae13829⋯.jpg (54.92 KB, 1080x1920, 9:16, 8a87a570beb08125515672551f….jpg)

>>95385

>Now I can see how the net satisfaction that one can derive from one's body would be reduced if he does not have exclusive ownership of it, but I don't see how it would make him favour consumption decisions over investment decisions. Because let's say that someone else can choose what ends he can put his body towards for 30% of the time, surely the remaining 60% of his time he is free to put his body to the ends that he wants and derive full satisfaction from them? Thoughts?

It's actually very simple. Hoppe is saying that when your body is put to use by someone else, then even though you are a high-IQ, low time-preference individual, you will still be forced into high time-preference nigger-tier behaviour because you can't achieve long-term happiness anyway, you decide that momentary happiness is more achievable instead of slaving away and wagecucking yourself for some ambiguous goal that you're unsure you could even reach.

For example, if you're working in a country that has a 50% income tax, the 4 out of 8 hours that you spend at work would not be for yourself, but for some unknown third-party, and eventually you realize that with your pathetic salary you will have no way of saving up to buy that beautiful house by the river where you can retire early and spend your days sipping fine wine with your beautiful wife, playing with your children, going hunting/fishing with good friends, learning a new fun hobby, reading intellectually-stimulating literature, and maybe starting a family business of producing exotic cheeses. When you realize that long-term happiness like that is unachievable (or more accurately - unaffordable), you decide that short-term happiness (fun) instead is more realistic: to go partying every day, to get drunk, to do drugs, to fuck whores and have degenerate sex, to become a tranny (in the case of incels), to waste your life on videogames/netflix/anime, etc…

In other words, government is directly responsible for turning people into literal degenerate sub-humans.


 No.95389

>>95387

There is an unspoken assumption here that people become hedonistic when long-term happiness becomes unattainable, which seems untrue given that humans today are wealthier than they have ever been.

Worse still, it assumes happiness is a goal

>that beautiful house by the river where you can retire early and spend your days sipping fine wine with your beautiful wife, playing with your children, going hunting/fishing with good friends, learning a new fun hobby, reading intellectually-stimulating literature, and maybe starting a family business of producing exotic cheeses.

when in reality it is a process. Striving towards a goal is what makes us live happy (and, more importantly, meaningful) lives and making the goal harder has little to do with happiness.


 No.95393

File: 597134ecf37347a⋯.jpg (57.93 KB, 604x398, 302:199, JvjeDMo.jpg)

>>95389

>There is an unspoken assumption here that people become *decivilized when long-term happiness becomes unattainable

It's not an assumption, it's exactly what the book and I are claiming.

>which seems untrue given that humans today are wealthier than they have ever been

Yes, a rented apartment full of cheap Chinese shit makes me feel very wealthy, but what does that have to do with happiness?

>Worse still, it assumes happiness is a goal when in reality it is a process.

Once people realize that their hopes and dreams are all just carrots at the end of a stick, and they aren't getting any closer to them, they no longer see a need to sacrifice short-term happiness for long-term happiness, they try to make their lives more fulfilling in the short-term instead. If the doctor tells you that you have only two weeks left to live, how are you going to spend your last days? Not at some boring job I bet.

Dude, I get that it's hard for you to understand since you admitted to being a 40-year old boomer in another thread and all of this goes against your programming, but the whole "work hard enough and eventually you'll get nice things" thing doesn't apply anymore in today's economy. It's all about working smart nowadays if you want to get ahead.


 No.95404

>>95393

Allow me to rephrase. How do you square your theory that a lack of opportunity is making people today decivilized with the fact that we live at a time of unprecedented social mobility and incredible material wealth? Shouldn't the theory imply that the average person 200 years ago (i.e. a peasant) was completely uncivilized?

>Once people realize that their hopes and dreams are all just carrots at the end of a stick, and they aren't getting any closer to them, they no longer see a need to sacrifice short-term happiness for long-term happiness, they try to make their lives more fulfilling in the short-term instead.

Once again; medieval peasants had it much worse than you, anon. They had God though, which I assume you don't.

A coherent system of values which prizes taking responsibility for your actions and embarking in the painful journey to become a better person is more important than the house and the wife and the dog and the whitewashed picket-fence you get after working for 40 years. You could make the claim that the state de-incentivizes taking responsibility for yourself (I do) but that's another argument.

>you admitted to being a 40-year old boomer in another thread

I'm in my twenties. Having your shit together make you a 40yo boomer in the eyes of doomers, apparently.


 No.95406

>>95404

The theory doesn't say that people will become less civilised. It says that they will favour consumption decisions over investment decisions when they don't have exclusive ownership over their body and property. When you don't own your own property fully, its value to you is lessened since you're unable to derive full satisfaction out of it by putting it fully to your own wanted ends. Thus there is less incentive to invest. A medieval serf has very little incentive to invest in himself or the property because he can not derive full value from it.


 No.95407

>>95404

>They had God though, which I assume you don't.

>A coherent system of values which prizes taking responsibility for your actions and embarking in the painful journey to become a better person is more important than the house and the wife and the dog and the whitewashed picket-fence you get after working for 40 years.

Nah.

'Bout the same.


 No.95409

>>95407

If you say so.

>>95406

It's wrong to think of yourself as the property of some separate superego. You are your body; a distributed neural network that permeates living tissue. It is inappropriate to conceptualize your drive for fulfillment as a subset of the conscious logic processes that let you make investment decisions. I think Hoppe made a big mistake here in believing his wisdom as an economist could translate to the domain of… Ontology? Psychology? idk, really.

Also:

>The theory doesn't say that people will become less civilised.

I thought about writing "Hoppe's theory instead of "your theory" in >>95404 but decided against it because >>95393 was talking about his own view of the world, not explaining the text above.


 No.95413

File: 6446a2ec5ece1df⋯.pdf (1.04 MB, time_preference.pdf)

File: 15d383704f01f56⋯.jpg (39.04 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, say what again.jpg)

>>95404

>>95409

Jesus Christ, you're slow.

>there's no point in investing in property when it's not your property

>there's no point in investing in your self when you don't own yourself

>there's no point in investing in your future if you don't see a future

It can't get any simpler than that.

Why would a medieval peasant learn how to read or to dance ballet, or some other "civilized" activity when all day every day for the next 20 years of his short life he's going to be working the land on his lord's estate? You think everyone was perfectly pious and chaste back then? Everyone was drunk in whatever their free time they had, the average peasant fucked more sluts than Chad. There's a reason the aristocracy didn't want anything to do with commoner filth.

>I thought about writing "Hoppe's theory instead of "your theory" in >>95404 but decided against it because >>95393 (You) was talking about his own view of the world, not explaining the text above

Hoppe wrote books and lectures about it, including the one in the OP, how is this my theory, retard?


 No.95420

>>95409

Humans act purposefully, towards are own subjective ends. That fact is incontrovertible unless you want to somehow not purposefully act in your actions of disputing the claim. One can not act towards his personal ends, i.e. fulfilment, without engaging in a set of necessary actions to arrive at those ends.

"Investment decisions" do not inherently involve any more "logic" than consumption decisions. Investment decisions simply mean to defer present consumption for a greater future consumption.

And as I mentioned, if one cannot expect to fully profit from his investment decisions, there is less incentive for him to commit them. The cost of investing and the disutility of waiting is the same, but the reward is less.


 No.95421

Hoppe confounds consumption and destruction as low time preference.


 No.95422

File: 3c2b396938f3ba9⋯.jpg (85.47 KB, 640x479, 640:479, 15418790319700.jpg)

We're arguing with a "mutalist". He is either trying to be an edgy contrarian because he just recently came from cuckchan, or he is trying to be a based centrist because he just came from reddit (probably the latter), it's that, or maybe his IQ really is capped at just below the /liberty/ average.

>>95421

Did you mean to say high time preference?


 No.95423

>>95422

I do.


 No.95430

File: 617857489d84924⋯.gif (2 MB, 395x350, 79:70, Poopin'_Bugs.gif)

>>95420

>Humans act purposefully, towards are own subjective ends. That fact is incontrovertible unless you want to somehow not purposefully act in your actions of disputing the claim. One can not act towards his personal ends, i.e. fulfilment, without engaging in a set of necessary actions to arrive at those ends.

I'm not arguing against praxeology.

The crux of my disagreement is that in the statement

>if one cannot expect to fully profit from his investment decisions, there is less incentive for him to commit them

there is an unspoken conflation of material benefits with happiness/purpose.

The 'profit' of having

>A coherent system of values which prizes taking responsibility for your actions

is living with a sense of purpose, not the material benefits that usually follow the adoption of said system of values and can be lessened through the actions of the state.

>>95413

<there's no point in investing in property when it's not your property

<there's no point in investing in your self when you don't own yourself

<there's no point in investing in your future if you don't see a future

>It's wrong to think of yourself as the property of some separate superego. You are your body.

<Hoppe wrote books and lectures about it, including the one in the OP, how is this my theory, retard?

in the words of >>95406

>The theory doesn't say that people will become less civilised. It says that they will favour consumption decisions over investment decisions

You and Hoppe aren't saying the same thing, exactly.

>>95422

nigga what'd I say to make you this salty?


 No.95432

>>95385

>but I don't see how it would make him favour consumption decisions over investment decisions.

It's because the payoff of investment decisions is necessarily lower. In addition to the fact that the nonlegitimate "renter" of the body can immediately squander any capital that you have accumulated for his own gain, his presence, regardless of what actions he takes with your body, guarantees you less time to enjoy the fruits of your investment. If you intend to work more now so that you can retire in leisure later, the fact that some of that leisure time will be taken from you by the renter means that you are receiving less leisure time for the same amount of work. It's the same reason a progressive income tax, no matter how mild, causes a downward spiral of productivity, or why the confiscation of grain in Ukraine by the USSR caused a famine as farmers stopped producing.

>>95389

>There is an unspoken assumption here that people become hedonistic when long-term happiness becomes unattainable

Well, yes. The primary disincentive of short-term satisfaction is that you lose the opportunity for long-term satisfaction. If you know you're going to lose long-term satisfaction regardless, then maximizing short-term satisfaction is the best possible outcome where payoffs are concerned.

>>95430

>there is an unspoken conflation of material benefits with happiness/purpose

They are related. Not completely one-to-one, but there is a correlation. The fact that spiritual aspirations of some sort are also a factor for some people to be low time-preference does not remove the primary incentive. Especially when one considers that these spiritual aspirations are generally tied to additional corporeal benefits, such as respect, prestige, self-satisfaction, and so on.


 No.95439

>>95432

In addition to the relation you mentioned, I wanna add another cause. Assuming that the using of property you haven't gained through homesteading/voluntary exchange is a higher time-preference action than the using of property which you have gained through such, Hoppe's proof that the statist activities grow when considered legitimate contributes to the effect.


 No.95451

>>95430

In the praxeological method there is no distinction between economic ends, spiritual ends, or whatever else, they are all subjectively valuable ends. To elucidate this, the very example that Hoppe was talking about was in a Garden of Eden with resources being infinite except for one's body, and psychological income, so to speak, being the only value that people are able to maximise. Bodies are property, since it's being a finite resource which is the necessary precondition of property. Distinctions like dualism vs monism are largely irrelevant to the point.

Now as owners of our bodies, we cannot help but act. Not only that, but we necessarily act in our self-interest to pursue our subjective ends. Any act, at the time of being made, is what we decide as the best course of action to maximise our subjective ends (though in hindsight this may not always have been the best course of action). Now this may seem false until you realise as I've demonstrated that our subjectively valued ends can be anything, they may not be material, they may not even be in the conducive to one's continued survival. But you can infer that material prosperity may be a commonly held end which is why I use it as an example.


 No.95515

>>95432

>>95451

Good points here. I can see where Hoppe was coming from.

One thing I will say is that saying the state turns "philosophers into drunks" is less accurate than saying it turns "investors into consumers".


 No.95535

>>95515

Yes, if that turning is of a degree, as opposed to absolute.




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