/liberty/ - Liberty

>former soviet states where generational subversion took place

>still subverted

Makes sense to me. You have citizens alive today who were there when the union fell. Their conditioning can probably never be undone. Theyll probably have to die for their socialist sentiment to die with them.

>>76611

>n-not real capitalism!!

kek, if there was an example of actually existing ancapism, it would be russia in the 90s

the whole state structure collapsed like never before in modern times

and modern russia is capitalist, brainlet

that its only exports are low value-added like unprocessed natural resources is in part because of its shock therapy policies in the 90s and in part because of the law of value

if you can't compete in terms of the unit labor costs, then welp, you cry in the corner like a little bitch how commies is the reason you haven't got a girlfriend

>>76601

> why is it universally hated in Eastern Europe

Probably because it isn't. I'm Eastern European as well. It's only the previous generation that "misses" the old days and for completely different reasons. Nobody reminisces fondly about all the restrictions of Socialism and the poverty. They joke about how pathetic it was and then instead talk about their childhood and things they did which were completely independent of the economic and political system.

Besides, when you're a kid that has to attend propaganda classes and events in praise of Socialism, Stalin and the Union, you might be conditioned for life. I know people who are dumb enough to brag how the regime used to make them do heavy labor in the fields for no pay as a "character building" activity. There is no fixing these people. They're lost in time forever. My grandfather had to pull military connections and search the whole city just to find me a god damn bar of soap and he is still a Socialist who thinks the Trabant is a perfectly functional vehicle and not an embarrassment to technology.

>>76620

I'll say yes, real Socialism, not necessarily "real Communism" as Marx only had critique and no real structure theory. It's damn near impossible to attack "actual Communism" when there's next to nothing said about it by Marx. That's why all critique against Communism is necessarily a critique of Socialism first Communism is supposed to be the next step so great nobody, even the great "unattached intellectuals", would have the power to envision and predict..

>>76623

very true, Marxism is critical not positive and by the materialist conception of history any constructions of 'communist society' are by definition idealist and against the Marxist methodology.

>>76618

>c-capitalists using state power as an element of competition is not real capitalism!!1

get a load of this brainlet

go drink some vodka, Ivan

you have no nerve cells left to kill anyway

>>76623

>>76624(me)

though I think you perhaps didn't really understand what the point of the images was: for orthodox marxists none of the self-purpoted socialist states like the Soviet Union or Maoist China were ever even 'socialist' as defined by Marx (via Lenin's redefinition of lower-stage and higher-stage into socialism and communism).

In a sense the Maoists and Khmer Rouge came the closest with their moneyless agrarian utopia experiments, though the experiments were also anti-marxist idealist utopian socialism.

>>76627

>In a sense the Maoists and Khmer Rouge came the closest with their moneyless agrarian utopia experiments

<leftcom embraces mautistan over economy planned for use

like clockwork

>>76626

Real Capitalism doesn't allow for State coercion. The moment you take a gun, or pay someone to do it indirectly for you, to seize someone's property by force, it's no longer "real" Capitalism. It goes against the main point of it being for private property and individual Liberty. The State itself is anti-Capitalist. There is no "social contract", there is no right to secede individually and at the very least not use Government services. Some you can opt out of but still have to pay for anyway.

>>76629

>r-real capitalism is rainbows and lemonade rivers!

this is how you sound now

>The moment you take a gun, or pay someone to do it indirectly for you, to seize someone's property by force, it's no longer "real" Capitalism

so real Capitalism has never been tried then because capitalism was born from the enclosure movement

>>76630

>did you miss the part where I admonished Maotism for being dumb, idealist and utopian?

no, but I also didn't miss the part where you had a hard on for moneyless chinese peasant communes with backyard furnaces

I also didn't miss the part where you were arguing semantics over the concept of transitional stage in Marx's writings

>>76633

>the fact that they were closer to communism by its orthodox marxist definition

there's no such fact

natural economy is not closer to communism than exchange based economy, brainlet

economy with the widespread division of labor and production for use according to plan on the other hand…

I think you can connect the dots

>we are discussing definitions of socialism and communism, so yes, literally semantics.

there's nothing to discuss

processes in the real world are not discrete

there can be no "quantum jump" from capitalism to communism

there must be a transitional stage and it doesn't matter if you call it socialism, communism, gay space gommunism or whatever

>>76636

>agrarian utopianism

>vs

>exchange economies

only in the consumer goods sector

>money

money that you can't buy MOP and hire labor with

>commodity production

if production is organized according to plan and not profit, than there's no commodity production

>don't forget production for foreign trade

which in 50s was around what? 1% of total economic output?

>cmon, Lenin knew he was building developmental state capitalism, why you gotta go full revisionist

but I agree with Lenin that NEP was state capitalism

>>76637

oh it was this conversation we were having

I've no interest in the millionth rehash of this debate, but what do you make of the Soviet state's status as a debtor, in the case of Chinese developmental aid for example?

>>76601

What's the sample size for those studies? How did they choose participants? A bunch of edgy kids who never lived through socialism or a bunch of old fucks that survived the purge by being fanatically devoted could both skew results towards communism.

>>76636

>money is not part of a natural economy

Dead wrong. It arises naturally from a barter system as people seek out common goods that are in demand by everyone in order to get around the double inequality of wants.

>>76631

capitalism cannot exist inside a state, the extent that the state has power is the exact extent the market isnt free

>>76601

post-socialist societies are infected with communist work ethics, which means that only suck ups and bandits get to generate wealth.

>>76619

I'm not worried about the oldfarts, they are senile and useless and will soon die off anyway, what I'm more worried about is these soyboy shkolniks that think life in the west is on easy mode and that everyone there is just dying to give you a free car, free house, free education and free money simply because you exist. It sucks to say this but this is a third-world Brazilian mentality, and if there will be changes in Russia anytime soon, it's these idiots who will be shilling for a soft-socialist nanny state.

>>76601

>If capitalism is a good thing, why is it universally hated in Eastern Europe?

Why do you consider eastern europeans the paragons of morality and/or virtue? They aren't.

>>76658

Because they won WW2, duh.

>>76601

Because when the USSR collapsed, you all screamed "we are capitalist now!" while keeping all the same shit minus the gibs that were subsidizing your lifestyles, and couldn't understand why your mothers and sisters were working as whores in the streets to try and scrounge out a living in your post-socialist hell hole. It would be like Venezuela changing their name from socialist to capitalist without really changing anything past some cultural shifts.

>>76662

>your mothers and sisters were working as whores

Слышь масленок, ты чуть фильтруй базар пока я не задеанонил тебя и не пришел к твоей мамке в гости, пиздюк блять недоношеный.

>>76619

>It's only the previous generation that "misses" the old days and for completely different reasons.

The most likely reason is because they actually experienced socialism, whereas the youngest generation only hears about it in schools, in conversation, and on television.

>he is still a Socialist who thinks the Trabant is a perfectly functional vehicle and not an embarrassment to technology.

You don't think he knows more about life under socialism, having lived under socialism, than you, someone who's never lived under socialism?

>>76631

>why is the NAP any more effective than any other law

The NAP is not a written law. It's a basic principle legislature is based on. Why even attempt to criticize it as such unless you think the only thing keeping people moral is State coercion.

> what reason does anyone have to uphold the NAP instead of whatever is their interest in the moment

Maybe they're not antisocial or want to get shot? Maybe they intend to live more than a single day in modern society.

>reliance on private security just results in society degenerating into warlordism based on who has the most armed men at their call

Are we doing the warlords meme again? Skirmishes are not worth the resources and money. Even when they do occur they can't ever hope to reach what an inflationary State can. Marxist exploitation theory is stale garbage and has been wrong empirically and theoretically for centuries. You can stop trying to apply it.

>Capitalism cannot exist without a state to enforce property relations and contracts.

Private property didn't need states to emerge, nor to keep. It certainly doesn't now as well. Dinosaurs walked the Earth before Jesus, private property existed before the holy Marx declared so. While dedicated agencies didn't exist back in the past most property disputes were resolved locally or by an elder specializing in it.

>>76601

>How do you reconcile this with your ideology?

Simple, these people don't understand economics, because they're not trained economists. To them, "capitalism" is what the government does at the moment. They know something is wrong with how things are going and assume that capitalism must be it. Add to this that the grass is always greener on the other side. Thirty years after the fact, there are many people who have never experienced socialism and are accessible to all the propaganda, and still many who now only remember it in the context of falling in love for the first time in their youth organization, and all the shortages were of course just sabotage or their country recovering from the dark, brutal Middle Ages.

In summary, public opinion is hardly relevant here. Even if every single Hungarian believed that capitalism was a mistake, that would not matter one bit.

>>76611

>Say what you want about the USSR but at least the government had a law to follow (no matter how cruel it was)

It didn't. At best, the government legalized any crime before the fact, but I doubt even that happened all too often, and I doubt just as strongly that you can call it a law when it's changed on a whim.

>and had responsibility to take care of its people (even though it treated them like cattle)

It didn't. How many people died in famines in the USSR again, ten million? I think something on that order.

>it's just that with today's so-called "capitalism" they can continue raping the countries for resources and money like during Soviet times but without any responsibility for the people's well-being because "muh capitalism" (even though both Russia and Ukraine aren't by any means "capitalist").

But that's true. Not like these countries gloriously embraced capitalism, they more or less silently admitted that socialism failed and then went on half-assing capitalism, too.

>>76623

This sums it up.

>>76624

Which makes it impossible to criticize. So, how is praxeology bad again? It's accessible to logic, whereas your dream economic model cannot even be described, if I understood you correctly.

>>76645

This.

>>76662

And this.

>>76667

>The most likely reason is because they actually experienced socialism, whereas the youngest generation only hears about it in schools, in conversation, and on television.

None of these is inherently more likely. We're at an impasse for quantitative studies here.

>You don't think he knows more about life under socialism, having lived under socialism, than you, someone who's never lived under socialism?

There's just as many witnesses who lived in gulags, or through famines, shortages, and persecution. Even his old man described conditions that weren't all that great, he just went on to say he liked it anyway. That's not something you can dismiss out of hand, but it's also far from an infallible opinion.

>>76673

>It didn't. At best, the government legalized any crime before the fact, but I doubt even that happened all too often, and I doubt just as strongly that you can call it a law when it's changed on a whim.

You're talking about modern Russia where the constitution practically doesn't exist. The USSR's laws were shit, but after Stalin the government was still more or less obliged to follow them and wasn't the band of thieves it started out as.

>It didn't. How many people died in famines in the USSR again, ten million? I think something on that order.

I'm not saying they were able to do it, I only said that it was their responsibility. Because that's what communists do, they take away your right to fend for yourself, claiming that they can take care of you better than you yourself and then they fucking fail at it. By the 70s though, the Soviet government actually was fulfilling it's promises of taking care of the people by using the oil revenues to fund education, healthcare, science, infrastructure, etc… take make everyone feel at least a little bit comfy at the end of the day as along as they worked hard, today's Russian "government" doesn't see any responsibility in doing any of that (not even fixing the fucking roads) nor will they allow for the market to take care of all these problems that they don't want to deal with.

>>76673

>Simple, these people don't understand economics, because they're not trained economists. To them, "capitalism" is what the government does at the moment. They know something is wrong with how things are going and assume that capitalism must be it. Add to this that the grass is always greener on the other side. Thirty years after the fact, there are many people who have never experienced socialism and are accessible to all the propaganda, and still many who now only remember it in the context of falling in love for the first time in their youth organization, and all the shortages were of course just sabotage or their country recovering from the dark, brutal Middle Ages.

Also, this.

>>76601

Talk to a Venezuelan or a Cuban about the virtues of Communism. You'll be surprised to find a very pro-capitalist bunch there.

>>76779

Daily reminder Cuba is so great that citizens regularly escape by raft to Florida and beg not to be deported for fear of public execution.

>>76601

>If capitalism is a good thing, why is it universally hated in Eastern Europe?

Because most people in Eastern Europe have never travelled to a capitalist country.

https://www.statista.com/chart/12329/some-europeans-have-never-been-outside-the-eu/

>>76786

Related to that, the exodus from Vietnam happened during communist rule. While it coincided with a war, not all refugees were war refugees, and it's also significant that such a brutal war happened under communist rule to begin with.

>>76796

Vietnam was not communist but under the rule of state capitalists

>>76608

You don't understand what conditioning is.

>>76801

>it wasnt real communism

okay I will give you a chance on this one since I am not knowledgeable about it, which definition of communism are you using and what makes it not that?

>it was state capitalist

:^)

>>76805

>the united states does not have a free market

>>76809

>state capitalism

>>76820

Yeah it's pretty redundant don't you think?

>>76601

> I am from Ukraine, a country where to the vast majority of people, capitalism is a synonym for poverty, homelessness, and war

No you are not sweety. All former soviet states invariantly hate communism to bits since they experienced it first hand, not like you armchair college kids commies.

Next time try to make your lies less blatant, faggot.

>>76807

no it dosnt

>>76887

>All former soviet states invariantly hate communism to bits

72% of Hungarians: "Life was better under Communism"

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/

>>76601

dont ukrainians enjoy working in poland?

>>76914

What did you expect from a left-leaning thinktank?

Because it's not real capitalism.

>>76938

"priceless idol" = impregnation

I'm from Romania and would like to quickly jump in to point out that OP is a filthy, lying faggot.

The generation of people who still harbor any sentiments of goodwill towards commies are senile grandmas that feed of their nostalgia.

I was raised with stories from my parents, and their friends, who spoke of what it was actually like to live like that. Stories of always being cold in your commie-bloc apartment and of hour-long line-ups to get bread. Stories of the oldguard peasants having heart-attacks when the little strip of land they worked on their entire lives was taken away and consolidated. Stories of not even having diapers and basic supplies for newbords. Stories of not being able to get a ration of meat unless you had connections. And stories of looking at some well-to-do officials drinking coca-cola and drooling.

Oh and only getting a few hours of TV per day that was 100% about the Glorious Leader.

This is why all commies must die.

>>76914

Read the report instead of the shitty PR piece:

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2009/11/Pew-Global-Attitudes-2009-Pulse-of-Europe-Report-Nov-2-1030am-NOT-EMBARGOED.pdf#page=91&zoom=auto,-266,734

>>76933

It's a conservative think-thank.

>>76888

>the freemarket has never been tried

>>77069

>Angela "keep them flags down boys" Merkel

>fascist

>somehow it's easier to believe there's a conspiracy to hide how much Ukraine loves socialism

>even though every country that tries socialism ends pisspoor, people still love it somehow

>>77059

>hating communism makes you a fascist

Vatnik kys

>>76601

That's because capitalism doesn't exactly exist in todays society. The simple fact that deflation isn't allowed means that true capitalism doesn't exist, if it did it would unfuck quite a few things in the long terms.

>>77076

The Maidan protest was mainly organized by EU backed Ukrainian fascists.

>>77111

>deflation isn't allowed

you have your deflationary bitcoins, so wtf are you bitching about? go sit on the your pile of numbers, while actual businesses and their customers use currency that benefits borrowers more than lenders

Of course ukranians want socialism back. When USSR was a thing, american faggotry was BANNED. Now look at former USSR countries…being exposed to american faggotry only since 1991 and they already want to make their gay pride parades and listen to Taylor Swift

Communism is the only thing that can defend our nations from american capitalist garbage.

>>77163

>not understanding context to this degree

stop being an autist, or koba will send you to gulag he will even if you do

>>77176

>If you are doing gulaging I think you will go into mine

Who ever said anything about me doing it, i'm sure their communist friends will soon turn on each other if they ever gain power. After all, that's how it's always been. Then again, I'm sure they like their guaranteed work placement, wherever it may be.

>>77176

WE WUZ CEZARS

>>77181

guy in pic spent 1/3rd of govs budget on his coronation and then his gov collapsed a bit later

>>77237

>72% want gommunism back

Okay. Vote for it. Emigrate to the glory of Gommunist Hungary and leave us wretched capitalists/regulatory capitalists to wallow in our own misery.

>>77238

I agree I wish communists would go commie in their own countries

>>77238

You don't know much about modern Hungary, do you?

>>77242

>You don't care much about modern Hungary, do you?

No, I don't care. My own country is in enough shit and I mind my own business, unlike communists.

>>76601

Pretty simple, they associate the EU with capitalism, and the EU is trying to replace the local population with mudslimes. Their former communist overlords may have killed massive numbers of them, but they didn't threaten to outright replace them. Faced with that, of course they would prefer communism.

Question: Would you prefer that I A) stomp on your testicles or B) stomp on only one?

You chose B? What kind of sick fuck wants to have one of their testicles stomped on?!? What a masochist!!

>>77265

I can't speak for other eastern European countries, but that is definitely not the mentality of Ukrainians, Russians or Belarussians.

>>77265

That's not true at all.

>>77258

>not caring about hunger

How cruel. Not everyone can synthesize estrogen naturally you know, people who are born with penises have to get theirs from other sources, like soy.

I hope you burn in hell for being so selfish.

>>77303

Make sure you don't eat TURKEY.

>>77303

>>77307

Actually, go ahead. DEUS VULT!