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/liberty/ - Liberty

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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 4504b3f725c469d⋯.jpg (91.47 KB, 960x540, 16:9, cops or soldiers.jpg)

 No.74791

Someone mentioned the monopoly of force in another thread. He was just shitposting, yet this topic is important enough to warrant a response. So, I decided to make a thread about this.

The argument linked to the monopoly of force goes like this: If you don't have an entity with a monopoly of force - the state -, then it will be a war of all against all. And that's about it, the argument didn't get better since Hobbes made it. In fact, Hobbes made it better than most. He actually came up with premises to support his conclusion. Most people just jump straight to the conclusion, which makes it hard to really criticize them, unlike Hobbes, who clearly oversaw a few flaws in his idea. Mainly, if they require to enter a social contract before they're able to cooperate, then how do they enter said social contract without the ability to cooperate? The ability to cooperate is necessary to enter and uphold the social contract, so the social contract cannot be a requirement for cooperation.

This brings me to the fact that the monopoly of force is a legal fiction. It does not describe the actual status quo. It is evident, for one, that everyone is still physically capable of using force, including in ways that are prohibited by the state. How well armed everoyne is compared to the state does not change that. We can still push each other off stairs, beat old people, steal from stores, and so on. To believe that the government took away this ability is delusional.

There are two ways in which the government can interfere, of course, if we do it anyway: With preventive or retributive force. However, the government doesn't have enough resources to prevent every possible aggression, so there must be something else preventing them. Clearly, people are peaceful by default, at least in our current society. Most of them don't think about aggression, even when no enforcers are in sight, because most of the time, no enforcers are in sight. It would do good to remember that for every theft detected by the government, a good ten aren't. I'm not talking about Africa here, but about Western Europe. Most crimes are not detected at all, and when they are, it's because private citizens are giving witness to them. And lest somebody say that the citizens only do that because the government is on their side: The right of self defense is still a thing. People actually do defend themselves and their property with force, and the government knows it. In the US, guns are used in self defense between a half and three million times a year:

https://gunsources.com/guns-save-lives/

As for retribution, like I said, most crimes are not detected at all. When they are, they seldom get punished. Even with homicides, the number is surprisingly low. The purpose of punishment is not so much to eliminate criminals as it is to demonstrate that the law is still valid. Clearly, then, what it requires is that there is a law, that people accept it enough to see punishment inflicted for its sake as legitimate, and that it is applied for punishment. That the state is required for any of these is not evident, and that it is required for the first condition is what I refuted above.

I do not doubt that you can intersect a new reason for why a government is absolutely, positively needed to have a peaceful society. What I do doubt is that these reasons will be more than ad hoc justifications, to be forgotten as soon as this thread is on page 3.

 No.74803

File: 52bc23131c9b6ad⋯.png (646.21 KB, 960x600, 8:5, 1372078724458.png)


 No.74821

>>74803

1. Given that definition, personal property of land would be a state.

2. Private property does not concern itself with land but the improvements upon the land (which is why we have right of way easements in common law).

3. Those that violate a proprietor's claims are the ones initiating force. and not the proprietor.


 No.74823

>>74803

How is that relevant to the topic, you dimwit?

Why are you posting such a shitty pic? Landowners derive all their authority against persons from their right to exclude them if they are on their property and are not within their right to stay there. They cannot arbitrate conflicts between different persons on their land, as that would extend their claimed ownership to these persons and their property. For the same reason, you cannot say they have the authority of ultimate decision-making, at least not regarding the person and property of others, even when those are on their property. A landowner may not take your property from you even if you're a trespasser, and he most certainly cannot imprison you on his land, as that would be the polar opposite of evicting you.

Like I said, dimwit.


 No.74826

>>74791

>This is what anarchists actually believe


 No.74831

>>74791

Anon. I will say it simply.

The chain-of-command and monopoly of force exists everywhere people are. If people don't like the existing chain at any point in time, they can either rebel (fight) or leave (flight) to somewhere unclaimed or more endurable, or somewhere weaker and ripe for conquest (flight + fight).

This even applies on a pirate ship in the middle of the ocean. Humans are territorial and hierarchical.

>>74803

>THIS


 No.74832

File: 4d379f55eebd346⋯.jpg (350 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, b2899299d7b73e8ea4fc5c3109….jpg)


 No.74835

>>74831

"monopoly of force" refers to a monopoly on sanctioned aggression only, not every chain of command that can possibly exist. Unlike the current governments, private entities have no droit du seigneur to impose violence or coercion.

>>74803

This is retarded; owning property does not give you the right to declare yourself Supreme Emperor of all who dare enter your patch of dirt. At most, all you can do is ask people who don't want to follow your rules to leave, and forcibly remove them if they refuse to leave.


 No.74837

File: 31fee763436726f⋯.jpg (22.29 KB, 600x337, 600:337, 030671abca3793f78a04548b0f….jpg)

>>74835

Hi anon,

Your first comment does not contradict what I said.

I'm pretty sure >>74803 is referring to the definition of property as FULL OWNERSHIP. Not leasing from the government which is what most property is, except for the few remaining true hereditary lords in the UK for example. This is similar to the ancap or maximal Libertarian definition of property. Truly, if you really owned a property why would you have to pay tax on it? That sounds more like renting.


 No.74838

File: 253a81dddccf188⋯.png (1.93 MB, 1763x2452, 1763:2452, 253a81dddccf188e8120b30036….png)

>>74837

BTW even most Kings did not bar people from leaving their lands as exile was traditionally the harshest punishment available besides death/torture.

So even if the worst you can do is 'exile' someone from your property, that can be quite severe, for instance your parents exile/disinherit you because you like dicks. You can argue all you want but they have the power because it wasn't your house after all but theirs, and you just lived there by their grace.


 No.74839

File: df8d765d784a136⋯.gif (3.28 MB, 366x325, 366:325, 0a59f9f7bf85b389222fddbdf6….gif)

>>74838

So if you want to live there, you live under their rules, in effect, the household becomes a state within the state.


 No.74854

>>74826

I didn't even get my information from anarchist sources. All of it is based on stuff available in mainstream textbooks on law and criminology.

>>74831

>The chain-of-command and monopoly of force exists everywhere people are.

Completely false for the monopoly of force, and overly simplified for the chain of command. You didn't even really talk about the former concept.

>>74837

>I'm pretty sure >>74803 is referring to the definition of property as FULL OWNERSHIP.

Not any definition I ever heard of. I have never heard of a defintion, in any legal textbook, to the effect that the proprietor can initiate the use of force against those that he FEELS to be violating what he CLAIMS to be his property. Instead, his use of force is only justified if there is an ACTUAL violation of what is ACTUALLY his property.

I have also never heard anyone say that landownership grants the right of ultimate decision-making within this land, only that it grants it over the land. And conflict arbitration, to my knowledge, was never linked to ownership of land, either.

>But muh feudalism

I'm talking about current legal theory here, not legal theory from 1450.

I swear, our latest batch of shitposters has no skill at all.

>>74838

>So even if the worst you can do is 'exile' someone from your property, that can be quite severe, for instance your parents exile/disinherit you because you like dicks.

They are not allowed to do that before you have reached maturity.

>B-but Rothbard said…

Fuck off, we've moved along from this specific theory of his.

>>74839

Meaning that your parents can imprison you, kill you and torture you? Derive that from their right to evict you (which, according to you, they have). Otherwise, I'll call bullshit.


 No.74855

>>74854

>They are not allowed to do that before you have reached maturity.

>Meaning that your parents can imprison you, kill you and torture you?

It all depends on the law of the state the plot of land is in


 No.74856

>>74855

That's evading the question. If your parents have the rights of a state on their own land, then they can torture, kill and imprison their own children on it, with no limits. Correct or not? It's a simple question.


 No.74857

>>74856

Correct.


 No.74859

>>74857

And how do you derive this right from their right to evict?


 No.74968

>>74859

By "have the rights of a state" do you mean they are the state? If yes they make the laws and can do whatever they want.




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