/liberty/ - Liberty

>>103991

The solution to market interference has never been more market interference. The American system worked just fine before the mandatory licensure and mandatity insurance were written into law, and European healthcare is more nearly as good as the memes imply. If you have thousands of hours of Misesian studies under your belt I'd suggest looking over them again.

>>103992

I live in one of the poorest regions in EU and healthcare works okay when you're poor. If you have the money, it's perfect. Nobody dies or becomes poor because the government made prices for healthcare go through the roof with interventions of various kind.

The problems I see here aren't that different than the problem I read about on american forums when it comes to provided service.

We have a mixed system. The State pays for all the serious stuff but you can pay for your shit.

You can have a private practice or clinic, but there are also public hospitals or hospitals that are private but the State pay for their shit.

The main problems are, as you can guess, the allocation of resources. For example you can have some services provided immediately and for others the wait list is long and you have to move in another city, but since the country is small it's not that terrible to move, and if it's urgent they'll just use a chopper and move you.

You can also move anywhere in Europe and they'll fix you almost free (for you) of charge.

At the same time the State keeps price lows in private clinics and labs by providing an alternative at a low cost.

This means that private clinics and labs can sometimes offer a service at a lower cost than the State, because the State keeps prices low.

In the US the healthcare mafia in cahoot with the State, by using medicare and medicaid, the patents, the limit to the number of clinics one can build and so on, will keep the prices high. In Europe, prices are kept as low as possible.

There is no free market and there won't be for a long time.

Healthcare is a game of coercion.

First of all, it's something needed for which people are willing to pay an unlimited amount of money. This means that if you don't have a free market, it's immoral, always.

If there isn't a free market, there is a coercion game. This means that you have to bring resources on your team. You stupid americans are having your resources being taken and transferred to jew hospital administrations, who only care about their money and cronism.

You are funding healthcare cronism and let people die of cancer because you don't know how the system really works in Europe.

This is the problem with many free-marketers. In an attempt to promote the right thing, the free market, we forget where we live. By forgetting where we live, we let the worst mafia possible grow and grow, in this case ruining our health and then our freedom.

Free market teachings cannot be applied randomly, hoping they'll work.

Some rules are there to fix the problems created by the State when you cannot remove the State.

A great rule is a system of healthcare for all, since it saves lives, keeps greed on a leash, and it's much easier to achieve than the eliminations of patents, boards and so on.

>>103993

>state pays runs your shit

>"I live in one of the poorest regions in EU"

kek, no surprise there, retard. I hope you get cancer so you can test out that shitty healthcare system.

>>104000

what do you think happens when you get cancer? You think they don't give you chemio or surgery?

>the socialist calculation problem doesn't count when it comes to healthcare

K.. keep me posted

>>104004

it counts and I even wrote about it. Socialist calculation problem doesn't mean goods dissipate, it means they're all over the place and badly allocated.

For example where I live there is an overabundance of ophthalmologist (you can always get a next day appointment at the public hospital) but if you need physical therapy you need to go to a private clinic.

You can also see that there is a regulated privatized market too, for prices and choices.

It's better than dying or becoming poor because the head of your insurance must pay for his son bar mitzvah or something like in the US.

Americans and libertarians must learn that the choice is often not between a free market and a regulated market, but between a market regulated to help the people or a market regulated to help the cronies and the billionaires. The inability of 99.9999% of libertarian to make this distinction makes us a joke.

>>104005

>Socialist calculation problem doesn't mean goods dissipate, it means they're all over the place and badly allocated.

The issues run much deeper than that, you don't truly understand the implications of the calculation problem. Misallocation based on the consumer demands is the most minor of the deleterious effects of nationalizing an industry. Misallocation of capital goods is much more significant and much harder (read: impossible) to solve. Goods are not only present in inferior quantity, not only only present in inferior quality, they are produced using inferior methods. The length of the production chain is wrong. The type of capital investment is wrong. There is no arbitrage elimination, no entrepreneurship. You are severely fucking underestimating what a non-solution socialism is.

>It's better than dying or becoming poor because the head of your insurance must pay for his son bar mitzvah or something like in the US.

This is the most retarded explanation of the US healthcare system I've ever seen and I personally know some Bernouts.

>Americans and libertarians must learn that the choice is often not between a free market and a regulated market, but between a market regulated to help the people or a market regulated to help the cronies and the billionaires.

No you doublenigger, that's exactly the choice you face: more regulation, or less regulation. More coercion, or less coercion. There is no such thing as regulation "for the people", regulatory capture makes sure of that. All redistributive schemes create a downward spiral of productivity, regardless of the nature or magnitude of the redistribution.

The fact that you keep referencing your own situation makes it sound like you're trying to justify your own rent-seeking post hoc by convincing yourself that it's ackshually some form of ass-backwards libertarianism, instead of the degenerate welfareism it truly is. The fact that you keep trying to adopt the enemy's talking points with a new spin makes you look like Unprincipled Super-Big-Brained Hardnose Pragmatist #564267855291. You're clearly seeking ass pats for being so Baste™ and Realist™ that you actively undermine our goals. If you lived in burgerstan I'd suggest interviewing for the Cato Institute or National Review, you'd probably fit right in there.

If you're going to be a rent-seeker, just come out and say that instead of twisting it into some form of righteousness. It's a lot of less shameful that way.

>>103991

>>104005

>it counts and I even wrote about it

You cannot simultaneously affirm the reality of the calculation problem and advocate for further government intervention in a field, as a matter of achieving a more efficient result

I understand 100% why you americans have so much difficulties with this. You don't understand how bad you have it and how simple it is in Europe.

>>104007

>Goods are not only present in inferior quantity, not only only present in inferior quality

They are inferior because the resources you could have used to do something else, will be used to do the arbitrary thing.

Also complete misallocation to the point of collapse happens when you have everything not guided by prices, but that's not the case with healthcare. There are a lot of prices in a lot of points of the healthcare market and the market in general.

In any case I'll let you notice that you still have misallocation in the US, since the amount of regulation is almost the same as in Europe, and so are the money the government pours in. The difference is that in Europe the money that the government pours in ends up benefitting the people, in the US only the healthcare cronies get those money while people die a sad death.

You don't have the free market, you already have coercion, you can only decide where to redirect the coercion. Shit is inefficient anyway.

>If you're going to be a rent-seeker, just come out and say that

I am saying this.

I am saying that you should not be a cuck and let the healthcare cronies getting all the rent while people die or don't go to the doctor. We're not talking about people not getting a PS4 because there is a game development mafia, we're talking about healthcare.

>more regulation, or less regulation

Nope.

You have the same amount of regulation, you just have different rules.

I bet the market for healthcare is much more free in many european countries despite also having a strong public sector.

I'm sure you need to suck a lot less bureaucrats cocks to open a clinic in Germany than in California.

I don't know why you americans are so obsessed by the idea that having the government paying for all means more regulations. That's not how it works in Europe at all.

I mean, you need a prescription for fucking contact lens, lol. I just order them online. Who has more freedom now?

>>104023

it's not more intervention. It's different intervention.

Of course the best choice is abolish the patent law, abolish the medical board, etc etc

That's not what you can have today.

Let's see for a moment what happens in the US right now:

>government pours money and give privileges to healthcare providers via patents, boards, regulations, etc

>these people get an infinite amount of money to pay the government for more regulations in their favor

>you don't get free-market-grade healthcare, you have to pay a shitload and also if something goes wrong they let you die and when lucky you become poor

>people are mad as fuck and want free healthcare, and they're right to be mad

Now, how do you get from this to free-market healthcare?

>first: give people access to free healthcare, copy the models from Europe

>now you don't have to worry about dying, insurance companies, doctors, hospitals, etc don't have infinite money anymore

>slowly abolish all the shit that causes healthcare to cost a lot, like medical boards, patents and so on, which now you can do because people aren't mad as fuck and also you don't risk to die

>prices fall a lot and the free market quality of services can shine again

>free healthcare can now be abolished because there is an efficient free market of healthcare in place

That's how you get there and the most important thing is that if you don't get there, you neither die nor become poor.

>>104026

drop my shit, I see you don't understand how it works in Europe because it's clear from your posts you think there are more regulations, when the healthcare market is more free than in the US

>>104025

>>104033

>"Oi, do you have a loicense to keep us from euthanizing that child you raised money to provide experimental treatment in the US to?"

You're correct and incorrect, EuroFag. Healthcare is in fact "less regulated" on the consumer end in Europe, but on the supplier end, you're much more heavily regulated than us. It's why companies develop their drugs in the US and then sell them to the world five-ten years later with thousands if not millions of lives lost/ruined in your own countries that didn't trust the clinical studies.

>>104036

>Healthcare is in fact "less regulated" on the consumer end in Europe, but on the supplier end, you're much more heavily regulated than us.

Yes, this is the capital goods allocation portion of the Calculation Problem which I referenced earlier, and that our eurofag seems to ahve glossed over in his effort to prove that the European system is oh-so-enlightened.

>>104039

Let's talk about suppliers:

there is a law in the US, I don't know if in every State, where you can have only a certain number of hospitals per area.

In most of Europe you can open a hospital wherever you want.

In the US you need to have the drug approved by the FDA. In Europe you can choose the regulatory body in the region you prefer. In any case the time-to-market is the same, maybe the FDA is faster, not sure if it's cheaper.

In the US you can extend patents using ever-greening tecniques, in the EU you can't. It's much easier to go to market with generic brand in the EU.

Before selling contact lenses or prescription glasses you need the prescription from the doctor. Here you can just sell them and the guy who sells you the glasses can also check your sight.

In any case, that's not the point. The countries have a lot in common when it comes to major regulations. The big difference is that in the EU you can do everything you do in the US but also for free and/or at a lower-cost, in the US you're fucked and the cronies rule.

We know that free market is the best thing, we already know the arguments for it. That's a given, but we cannot have it.

Since regulations cannot be dropped, the better thing to do for the well-being of the people is to move towards universal coverage.

>>104041

Did you dismiss the entire part about most drug/treatment R&D being performed in the US? The European healthcare system is subsidized by companies producing drugs in the US where they can turn a profit before bringing it to Europe later for extra shekels. You're basically healthcare parasites.

>>104041

You're repeating yourself. Everyone who frequents this board is already aware of the problems caused by patents, FDA meddling, hospital subsidies, and every other interference in the US market. Most are probably more aware of it than you are. The fact that the US system is shit does not mean the European system is any less shit.

>The big difference is that in the EU you can do everything you do in the US but also for free and/or at a lower-cost

The fact that you specifically are paying a lower cost does not mean the costs are lower.

So abolish the patent system

>>104000

>>104003

>what do you think happens when you get cancer?

You launch a fundraiser to be able to pay for treatment in the US.

>>105557 What "basic freedoms" are denied to black people in America?