No.102648
Most libertarians and minarchists refuse to acknowledge healthcare as a service that should be provided by the goverment (nothing wrong with that), while, simultaneously use a wishy washy logic to, through massive amounts of cognitive disonance, say that the local goverment should provide a firefighter service funded by everyone.
Don't get me wrong, it makes sense that minarchists defend a vigilante government that provides police, free courthouses and a small body of soldiers to defend and ONLY defend the country (no foreign intervention allowed) as law, order and stability are public goods, however, I don't see how firefighters are one.
>fire spreads
So do germs and disease, that does not mean that healthcare is a right and that I should fund firefighters to protect you, your property and your business.
>firefighters allow me to defend my property, my bodily autonomy and mantain it at its fullest
So do most welfare programs, but you are a libertarian, not a social democrat, be coherent.
>firefighters are more efficient when they a provided by the government
We are talking about liberty and freedom, not efficiency, that's not libertarianism, that's utilitarianism.
Charity, Pharma research, banking, academia funding and healthcare are also more efficiently provided by the government (or that's what utilitarians say), but that's not an argument against freedom.
Utilitarianism is fucking intellectual cancer.
If you unironically think that efficiency justifies it you are a social democrat that believes in trickle-down economics, not a libertarian
Read Ayn Rand "the Virtue of Egoism": Libertarian ethics are based upon ethical egoism, rationalism and hedonism instead of upon utilitarianism or empirism, other people's happiness are nothing of your concern, and according to our concept of Free Will and human rationality, it is better for them to be like so.
<ibn4 reddit spacing
It's called proper formating.
____________________________
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No.102649
>what are volunteer firefighters
Chopper meme country wants to talk with you.
Sage for Reddit spacing
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No.102650
>>102649
<what are volunteer firefighters
Nothing wrong with that, and there are also voluntary armies that rise up during periods of high crime or instability, like most libertarians don't have a problem agaisnt charities that provide welfare (unless they are paleoconservatives, or social darwinists, or eugenecists of some kind).
I am talking about those minarchists who want the gov. to provide them with firefighters in those areas where volunteers or private firefighters would be scarce or inefficient, that is incoherent.
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No.102660
>>102649
Volunteer fire fighters, to be effective, still require a shit ton of expensive trucks, gear, and training. We arent stuck with throwing buckets of water on fires anymore
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No.102661
>>102648
police and fire are definately first priorities. I'd actually put health care above the military since the police can act as a military militia and draft and lead civilians if invaded (similar to how the RCMP served a dual militia/police role in its early days in Canada)
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No.102705
I'm an ethical solipsist until my utopia can be achieved.
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No.102706
also utilitarianism means the government is fair and just, it doesn't preclude its existence.
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No.102751
I guess people could contract private fire-fighters I suppose?
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No.102753
>>102648
>Most libertarians and minarchists… say that the local goverment should provide a firefighter service funded by everyone.
Do you have any figures on this? I'm not aware that this is the case. I'd think that any half-decent Libertarian or Minarchist would recognize that the private sector invented firefighting, and that the High School History horror stories about private firefighters were essentially sensationalist bullshit.
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No.102754
Of course, there's always the left-libertarian "firefighters kill people by defending property, thus causing the now-dead people to fail ro bother to evacuate"…
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No.102756
>all these posts entertaining statist bullshit
>not a single mention of fire insurance
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No.102774
>>102756
OP asked for responses from minarchists specifically.
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No.102796
>>102774
I'm not aware of fire services being a standard part of the minarchist platform, which consists of: Police, Courts, and National Defense. One could advocate for all of these things without supporting firefighting as a public good, and instead favoring private fire insurance and private firefighters. Nothing about that is incongruous with the minarchist position, and I'm curious where OP gets the idea that "most" minarchists support it. I would argue that anything beyond police, courts, and military is in excess of the standard minarchist position, and therefore not minarchist.
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No.102797
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No.102875
>>102774
So if we take op's purpouse, the only acceptable purpouse of the state is to set fire to people who don't have fire insurance?
But you can buy it from anybody (if they have a liscense from the state to sell)?
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No.103047
lets say you have a disease. you can still work to get enough money to get it treated. if you cant work you can get loans until after you get treated and are able to get the money back
now if a fire starts you dont really have much time to pay anyone or earn the money to pay the firefighters
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No.103053
>>103047
Assuming you don't have fire insurance, what prevents you from negotiating with the firefighting company directly?
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No.103062
>>103047
So your conclusion is…?
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No.103075
>>103053
well fire is more of an imminent threat. if you have cancer for example you can still survive until you find a way to pay your medical expenses. and if firefighters will have to be paid to save lives anyone will just commit arson to make people lose money or kill the people (or just destroy their property) that dont have "fire insurance"
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No.103076
>>103053
also, as far as i know ambulance is free in case of emergencies but then you have to pay the operation
a firefighter truck is free aswell in case of emergencies but then you have to pay for the damage of the property yourself.
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No.103077
>>103075
So your conclusion is…?
>>103076
>also, as far as i know ambulance is free in case of emergencies but then you have to pay the operation
This is not the case, at least in the United States. Ambulance rides are expensive. I've been there. They won't ask for your credit card at the scene, but they will charge you.
Again, what are you getting at? You're clearly suggesting that emergency fire services are in some way different in principle from emergency medical care. To what end?
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No.103078
>>103075
<if firefighters will have to be paid to save lives anyone will just commit arson to make people lose money or kill the people (or just destroy their property) that dont have "fire insurance"
<anyone will just commit arson
Why?
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No.103079
>>103075
A lot of hospitals (including physician-owned hospitals in the US, which work outside the heatlh insurance world) are willing to treat patients in critical condition and then negotiate a payment plan after the fact if needed. Obviously it's neither desirable nor efficient for the hospital or the patient to attempt to extract payment prior to treatment. Because in the case where the patient simply does not have the upfront money to pay for fire services, there is inherent risk in the fire company being willing to expend resources fighting the fire, and there will likely be a premium charged–that is simply the cost of not having fire insurance.
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No.103080
>>103078
to commit crimes more effectively. certainly much safer than sticking a knife in someone. just start a fire on the house of the guy u hate and run away
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No.103081
>>103077
was not aware that there s a cost for emergency rides to the hospital. i disagree with that
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No.103082
>>103080
That's more of an argument for arson over stabbing someone as a means of murder, and by extension an argument about how a privatized society would handle aggression, rather than an argument for public fire departments. Arson happens already in the presence of public fire departments. I don't think that the simple lack of public fire departments will cause people to set other people's property on fire just because they can. The fact that people are not walking around outside with bulletproof vests does not mean that people will have a higher tendency to shoot each other.
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No.103083
>>103082
not because they can. my point was that if someone wanted to get rid of someone else it would be easier through arson without emergency fire deparment response rather than planning a calculated murder. overall saying that it would be easier to get away with killin someone
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No.103084
>>103083
See >>103079. You're assuming that ancapistan is some sort of cartoon world where entrepreneurs are all evil, greedy caricatures, rather than reasonable men who put a priority on on customer service and the value of their reputation.
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No.103085
>>103084
im talkin aout an average joe who hates someone not an entrepreneur or whatever.
why dont we use the same argument for police then? because they as well as firefighters need to stop immediate dangers.
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No.103104
>>103085
In ancap there would be defense insurance agencies, aka private police. The private police will have to pay you every time they allow a crime to happen under their nose, so they will be interested in preventing crime happening at all, as well as finding the criminal if it does and getting him to pay for any damage he caused so that the company won't have to pay you out of its own pockets.
Compare this to public police, which not only allows crime to happen all the time (even in countries with large police forces), but also laughs at you if you tell them your Xbox was stolen.
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No.103106
>>103104
well. public and privatezied can go hand in hand in this situation. you cant have someone be stabbed and let the person get away with it because the victim doesnt have a police insurance or whatever the shit that is. hospitals are the only case where privatized is better than public. imagine the taxes that would appear if you had a public health care. also think about the wait time for the medics. the firefighters dont take that long to respond anyway so i dont see the point of making it private. also yes fire spreads.
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No.103107
also its harder to become a surgeon than an officer or firefighter therefore there s much less of them so that s why its ok for the police and firefighters to be a public service
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No.103110
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No.103147
>>103083
With a much lower chance of success, and a much higher risk to you for several reasons.
<Your victim can flee the building or possibly suppress the fire
<Your victim, much more likely to survive, has more of a chance to sue you for all that you're worth
<The neighbors, whose homes were damaged or threatened by the flames, have a similar chance to track you down and sue you.
Basically you can count on NOT killing your victim and getting sued into eternal destitution.
Besides, why would firefighters being private encourage anybody to do that MORE than them being public? Private firefighters will have better response times and probably be funded through fire insurance, so the victim will probably suffer minimal damage and isn't likely to see any cost out of pocket.
Everything about your scenario is poorly conceived.
>>103106
>you cant have someone be stabbed and let the person get away with it because the victim doesnt have a police insurance or whatever the shit that is.
There are lots of reasons why that isn't how it would go down, but I'm trying not to get into the AnCapistan conversation because this thread is supposed to be in a Minarchist context.
>hospitals are the only case where privatized is better than public.
Why do the laws of economics only apply to hospitals?
>the firefighters dont take that long to respond anyway so i dont see the point of making it private
Because in order for a public service to have sufficient capacity, it must wildly overcharge the public, and it has no monetary incentive to improve if it is deficient in any capacity.
>also yes fire spreads.
All the more reason why private firefighters won't just let your house burn; it costs them less to put out a fire on an uninsured house than to have to put out their other customers' houses and then pay for the damage. The free riders are still in a bad place because they don't have insurance to pay for fire or water damage, (much more expensive to provide than putting out a house fire) so they'll want insurance for that.
<Ha-ha! Suckers! I had my house fire extinguished for NOTHING! Now I can kick back and sleep in a soaked bed directly under a charred hole in my roof, having saved the cost of a monthly fire insurance premium. I'm so clever!
>>103107
>It's easier to become a policeman or firefighter than it is to become a surgeon
>Therefore police and fire services should be publicly-funded
You heard it here first, folks! Nationalize all the fast food jobs! Bring on the Department of Car Washes! I'm sure the Bureau of Home Improvement Stores will have the right kind of light bulb you need; you'll just need to fill in the right form and wait 6-8 weeks to find out if you qualify.
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No.103148
>>102648
>t. Someone who's never lived in the Great Plains
1) Fires are natural disasters. Getting sick is not.
2) Typically firefighters are a voluntary force out here. They only exist as a public sector to cover workman's comp when they inevitably end up with lung cancer.
3) Healthcare is like an engine. If you fail to take care of it, it gets busted and costs a lot more to fix. You want people to fix your busted engine because you didn't put oil in it.
4) Firefighters can be privatized like everything else.
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No.103149
OP really took a flamethrower to that strawman, huh.
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No.103150
>>103148
>1) Fires are natural disasters. Getting sick is not.
Stopped reading there.
Nice blattant contradiction. How are diseases any less natural that fires?
95% of fires are man-caused and almost 100% of the casualties are caused indirectly by human beings.
You are a Christian, so I don't really have any hope in your intelligence to start with.
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No.103151
>>103107
GTFO utilitarianist.
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No.103152
>>103148
>Fires are natural disasters. Getting sick is not.
BTW, what the fuck has to do nature with freedom to start with?
Aggresion, murder, rape and theft are natural, but we still oppose those concepts.
Nice Naturalistic Falacy deranged Christcuck.
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No.103154
>>103152
>>103150
Nice lack of reading comprehension. Diseases are natural but not "natural disasters" (unless they are pandemics).
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No.103162
>>103150
>>103152
Niggers tongue your anus. See >>103154 faggot.
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