ce3559 No.30099
What do you guys think of Erdogan? I didn't like him initially and there are still things I dislike about him but I'm warming up to him since he seems quite competent.
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cb567a No.30100
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7e1318 No.30102
It's suspicious that he's on the side of qatar and iran.
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ce3559 No.30105
>>30100
What's with the takfir
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7bb33e No.30106
>>30100
>apostate
You'll need to prove that. Being a bad Muslim doesn't make one apostate. We all sin and all have our weaknesses.
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997525 No.30120
>>30106
So by this logic ISIS are bad muslims or apostates? Where do you draw your imaginary line?
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7e1318 No.30121
>>30120
If you can't justify it then you're the one with the imaginary line between kufr and Islam.
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00d17e No.30122
>>30121
So ISIS are not apostates to you, just bad muslim? Explain yourself, don't be vague.
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7e1318 No.30123
>>30122
You brought up the topic not me. Why don't you tell us why they're apostates?
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00d17e No.30124
>>30123
I don't need to justify anything to you if you have no criteria for apostasy and are silent when it comes to ISIS.
Edrogan is an apostate and puppet precisely because of his relations with ISIS.
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7e1318 No.30125
>>30124
I have criteria, and they're the criteria according to ahlussunnah. Now you answer the question.
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997525 No.30126
>>30125
Already did. Helping apostate terrorists makes one kufr.
Now you answer the question about ISIS, are they muslims or apostates?
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7e1318 No.30127
>>30126
>Helping apostate terrorists makes one kufr.
According to which criteria did they become apostates in the first place? That's the question.
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ce3559 No.30128
>>30122
No they're not apostates, it's not for you to judge.
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61001a No.30133
>>30128
>No they're not apostates, it's not for you to judge.
when they're beheading innocent muslims and non-muslims and burning people alive and enslaving women as sex slaves they're apostates, and claiming responsibility for terror attacks in algeria and europe and africa etc… defending them is sick and grounds for apostasy. And no IS propaganda can defend them, we know too much.
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7e1318 No.30134
>>30133
No one here is defending ISIS or spreading ISIS propaganda. You're an instigating troll.
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70bf0e No.30136
>>30134
Im a troll for pointing out the truth about ISIS? They corrupt the deen, they teach that evil is good and good is evil. Give me a break.
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7bb33e No.30137
>>30133
Depends on how you determine apostasy or not. To the Salafi there are 10 nullifiers of Islam. As to whether ISIS in general constitutes any of those 10 things it's up for a court to decide, not us as individuals.
You can say you don't like ISIS or their methods - I sure as hell don't - but they're entitled to their day in court. If they are determined in court to have violated shariah law, then proper punishment will be handed down. Otherwise, they may be terrible people doing terrible things, but they're not necessarily apostates.
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6a1648 No.30141
>>30099
He supports democracy, which means he believes humans can create laws even if it goes against the shariah. (shirk)
He said he doesn't want khilafa and turkey is secular. (shirk)
He is a nationalist, often had nationalist rallies. (tribalism = jahiliya)
He is pro LGBT. (sodomy)
He deals with israel, buys drones and military parts such as tank parts, and trades gas. (jews who fight us)
He is an ally with NATO. (christians who fight us)
Basically, it's safe to say he's an apostate.
>inb4 4d chess
Based on the sunnah we judge by the apparent, not his hidden intentions.
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7bb33e No.30146
>>30141
Well, ok, but all of that needs to be presented in a shariah court. This board is not a court. Your opinion is one thing; but until he's had his day in a proper court, he can only be seen as a misguided Muslim. You don't have the authority to declare him apostate.
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7e1318 No.30147
>>30141
>"he believes such and such"
>"we judge by the apparent"
hmm…
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6a1648 No.30150
>>30146
We can't apply the ruling for the apostate without a shariah court, I agree.
>>30147
All things he stated or does himself.
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7e1318 No.30151
>>30150
Right, so when did he say that he believes humans can create laws even if it goes against the sharia?
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6a1648 No.30152
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>30151
I never claimed he said that, he supports secular democracy, which implies that he doesn't need shariah. Democracy allows voting for things against islam, like in turkey alcohol and prostitution are legal, that's just one example. Video related.
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7e1318 No.30153
>>30152
>he supports secular democracy, which implies that he doesn't need shariah.
No not really. It implies that taking part in the already established democracy might be the best way to bring about change. You talk about alcohol and prostitution, that already existed before Erdogan. Same with the alliance with NATO, that wasn't his doing.
Now what's the alternative? Rallying a gang with some pick up trucks and rifles like isis? And establish a caliphate that way?
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f54a49 No.30154
>>30133
Dude no one here likes daesh but you can go round calling people kufs because it's an act of disbelief if you're wrong.
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6a1648 No.30159
>>30153
>It implies that taking part in the already established democracy might be the best way to bring about change.
Muslims should not participate in jahili politics or shirki systems. Or they become a partner in it.
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7e1318 No.30161
>>30159
I'm not sure how he's going to avoid the "jahili politics" of his own country…
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6a1648 No.30166
>>30161
By not participating in the first place! Also, why put jahili politics in quotes? Are you implying it isn't jahil? Are you implying it is compatible with islam?
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7e1318 No.30167
>>30166
>By not participating in the first place!
He'll still be affected by the politics! All the examples you've made of his politics, are not his politics. He could be a watermelon seller right now and there'd still be nato and prostitutes.
>why put jahili politics in quotes?
I don't know what you mean by jahili politics because I asked you what the alternative was(eg Islamic politics) but you did not really answer.
>Are you implying it is compatible with islam?
Again, what are you talking about? The whore houses and NATO that Erdogan did not bring about in the first place?
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6a1648 No.30168
>>30167
>He could be a watermelon seller right now and there'd still be nato and prostitutes.
But then there would be no sin on him since he has no part in it. But since he took the helm then he is responsible for it. He could leave nato, and make the laws islamic, but he doesn't. He agree with the secular system sadly.
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7e1318 No.30170
>>30168
>But then there would be no sin on him since he has no part in it
There would be a sin on him though since it's obligatory to try to change it. Now if you had the benefit of the doubt you could say that Erdogan believes the best way to change it is going into politics, and that's why he's doing it.
Or, you could say that he loves kufr and thinks sharia is pointless, which is what you did.
>since he took the helm then he is responsible for it.
Except you just said it was a democracy, ie the power is in the hands of the people(which is why you said it's kufr)! So you should hold the people responsible, not Erdogan.
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6a1648 No.30173
>>30170
>There would be a sin on him though since it's obligatory to try to change it.
Maybe, but he would still be muslim in that case.
>Or, you could say that he loves kufr and thinks sharia is pointless, which is what you did.
This is what he said in the video I posted, he prefers secularism. His words not mine.
>Except you just said it was a democracy, ie the power is in the hands of the people(which is why you said it's kufr)! So you should hold the people responsible, not Erdogan.
Both are responsible, the people for voting in taghut and erdogan for being part of the satanic system and making himself a taghut.
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7e1318 No.30175
>>30173
>This is what he said in the video I posted
Hmm yes he said he preferred a secular state, you're right. I'd say if you wanted to have benefit of the doubt here you could say he's lying strategically as all politicians do. But either way I will keep the video in mind and use it to shut up the Muslims who make takfir of Arab rulers but idolize Erdogan.
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6a1648 No.30176
>>30175
>I'd say if you wanted to have benefit of the doubt here you could say he's lying strategically as all politicians do.
But for statements of clear kufr, you have to take it at face value.
>But either way I will keep the video in mind and use it to shut up the Muslims who make takfir of Arab rulers but idolize Erdogan.
Yes brother, although I have to takfir almost all of our leaders for many of the same reasons.
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7e1318 No.30177
>>30176
"our" leaders? Are you sure you're not living in the west, your leader then being the british queen or something along those lines?
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6a1648 No.30178
>>30177
t.arab bootlicker
Hows that rubber taste?
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7e1318 No.30179
>>30178
Just as I thought, you're just another useless LARPer.
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6a1648 No.30187
>>30179
You seem nationalist, where I live is irrelevant, since the lands of islam belong to all muslims, arab or non arab, black or white. So the people ruling over our lands, holy places, resources, are leading it by definition, and I reject them as my leaders since they are nothing but dogs for the western interests! If you defend and support them you will be raised with them in yawm al qiyamah, naked and uncircumcised, inshallah.
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7e1318 No.30190
>>30187
>You seem nationalist
And you seem like one of those westerners engaged in caliphate-LARP on their spare time.
>I reject them as my leaders since they are nothing but dogs for the western interests!
If you're consistent then go ahead and also reject your western leaders you're living under…oh wait, you're all talk and make-belief. So you can reject the Muslim leaders for being allied/ruled by western leaders, but you can not reject the same western leaders? This is why you people come across as clowns.
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6a1648 No.30194
>>30190
Muslims reject ALL taghut including western ones alhamdulillah
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4c4376 No.30196
>>30187
>You seem nationalist
Every sane person is a nationalist to some degree, you should respect the laws of your country and try to improve it, not open its borders to the world and destroy its people.
> since the lands of islam belong to all muslims
Uh, no? That's not how property laws, travel laws or citizenship work.
> I reject them as my leaders since they are nothing but dogs for the western interests!
Your rejection is based on your own criteria,so your preferences don't matter.
Read more, preach less.
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7bb33e No.30198
>>30196
Nations are decided by men, borders are drawn by men. The world belongs to Allah.
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ce3559 No.30200
>>30196
Nationalism is jahil arrogance and borders are the work of the devil.
>Whoever fights under a banner of folly, supporting tribalism, or getting angry for the sake of tribalism, he dies in a state of ignorance.
[Sunan Ibn Majah 3948]
>When those who disbelieved placed in their hearts pride and arrogance - the pride and arrogance of jahiliyyah - then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the Believers […]
[Qur'an 48:26]
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831aed No.30203
>>30200
none of that says what you want it to say, try again kid.
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7bb33e No.30204
>>30203
Actually, he's right. Nationalism/Tribalism is foolish. Do you honestly believe that the borders drawn by men matter to Allah?
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ce3559 No.30208
>>30203
Your land is nothing and your governments are corrupt what do you have to be proud of?
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7e1318 No.30210
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ce3559 No.30211
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