/islam/ - 8kun Masjid

QTDDTOT >>19586

Unlocked. I think ethical treatment of animals is a fine topic of discussion.

>>27898

The constant bull**** threads and comments from this specific person and the constant overlooking of these things by moderators is in fact a problem.

>Inb4: don't talk about the poster, just ignore and go away; we don't need people like you here but we like him and his threads/comments here

Even regardless of all previous stupid comments, now he's indirectly alluding to something that even Prophet Mohammad(SAWS) himself didn't do : Making something haram that Allah Himself has made halal. And after one mod closed this because of QTDDTOT, you opened it again. People in the past got banned/their threads get deleted for talking about the khawarij or the """progressive muzlims""" but these type of things are fine?

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what is going on in here, if one simply looks at what way this whole matter is presented in this thread.

In hadiths we see that we are to observe moderation. And eating too much of meat is not good in general. But sperging about "veganism"/"vegetarianism" and talking about "banning meat entirely" is stupid. Why have a separate board here instead of just staying at leddit then?

>>27902

The OP literally says:

>let's talk about ethical treatment of animals

>arguments for/against?

That is an obvious open-ended discussion. You can either join that discussion or you can hide the thread. If everything is cast over to the QTDDTOT thread, then why have a board at all? It can all just be one big thread.

If you don't want to discuss ethical animal treatment from a Muslim perspective, then don't. The thread is here in case someone else does. The universe doesn't revolve around you and your tender sensibilities.

>>27903

>discussion about whether or not consuming meat is ethical in Islam

>open-ended

?

>>27902

Agree 100%

>>27904

Do you have an opinion on the ethical treatment of animals from an Islamic perspective? If not, move on to another thread that is more your taste.

Any further attempts to derail this thread by not replying to the topic at hand and I will start handing out bans. Don't test me.

>>27905

>literal board-wide (1)

Don't try to create false consensus.

>>27888

https://www.animalsinislam.com/halal-living/fatwas/

Pretty much comes down to this:

"A Muslim may be a vegetarian. However, he should not regard eating meat as prohibited." - Mufti Ebrahim Desai

>>27906

Believers, do not forbid yourselves the good

things God has made lawful to you. Do

not transgress; God does not love the

transgressors. (5:87)

Children of Adam, dress well when you attend

any place of worship. Eat and drink but do not

be wasteful. Surely He does not love the wasteful.

Say, “Who is there to forbid the beauty which

God has produced for His servants, and the

wholesome means of sustenance? Say, They are

[lawful] in the life of this world, to all who believe

— to be theirs alone on the Day of Resurrection.

Thus do We make Our revelations clear to

people of knowledge. (7:31-32)

Say: ‘Do but consider all the means of

sustenance that God has bestowed on you!

Some of it you then made unlawful, and

some lawful.’ Say: ‘Has God given you

leave to do so, or do you fabricate lies

against God?’ (10:59)

Anas Ibn Malik(RA) reported that: “Three men came to the houses of the wives of the Prophet Mohammad(SAWS) and asked how his worship was. When they were informed, they considered their own worship to be insignificant and said: 'Where are we in comparison to the Prophet Mohammad(SAWS) when Allah has forgiven his past and future sins?' One of them said: 'As for me, I shall offer prayer all night long.' Another said: 'I shall observe fasting perpetually, never to break it.' Another said: 'I shall abstain from women and will never marry.' The Prophet Mohammad(SAWS) then came to them and said: “Are you the people who said such things? I swear By Allah that I fear Allah more than you do, and I am most obedient and dutiful among you to Him, but still, I observe fasting (sometimes) and break it (at others); I perform (optional) prayer (at night sometimes) and sleep at night (at others); I also marry. So whoever turns away from my Sunnah (i.e., my way) is not from me.” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]

http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/140467/whoever-turns-away-from-my-sunnah-is-not-from-me

Eid sacrifice is part of Islam. Any Muslim shouldn't follow kuffar in their mental illness and follow their teachings. You either believe in Islam or something else. You can't create Islam of your choice.

>>27909

You don't have to declare meat unlawful in order to be a vegetarian.

>>27910

Being a vegetarian is "mental illness" now.

Wew, anon. Just wew. :|

>>27903

Because its literally a question that does not deserve it's own thread.

I kind of consider myself somewhat a "vegan" in practical sense because I do not eat much meat because I view it as a common pitfall of the 'western diet' that can contribute to diseases.

I am not a "vegan" in the common sense of the word though because obviously I eat meat when it is not pork or "pink slime" and do not subscribe to this crazed idea by westerners that animals are equal to humans. That is absurd. OP, I suggest you stop going down that road because most Vegans are anti-Islam. "Vegangains" comes to mind, he is a neutered cuck who unsurprisingly holds a hatred for Islam. Stop drinking soylent and all your other queer things.

also, >>27921

>>27910

>>27902

>>27923

> most Vegans are anti-Islam

What? No, stop. You can't make broad generalizations about a large and diverse group of people like that. I have a friend who is vegan (and also Buddhist) and she's not anti-Islamic.

>>27906

>False Census

You think I'm the person I'm referring to?

>>27924

being Buddhist means you are anti-Islam.

Educate yourself on Burma.

>>27926

>Educate yourself on Burma.

What, because the government of Burma are Buddhist and engage in genocide, that means that all Buddhists are genocide-supporters?

How is this different from islamophobes claiming that all Muslims are terrorists?

>>27927

>How is this different from islamophobes claiming that all Muslims are terrorists?

Every Muslim state fights terrorism. They're not the ones behind the terrorism as is the case with the buddhist mushriks.

>>27934

The people performing genocide aren't true Buddhists, Buddhism is a peaceful religion.

>>27923

People these days eat too much meat because of money and it's availability. Ali Bin Abi Talb peace be upon him said he only eaten meat in the time of it's sacrifice. That doesn't mean you shouldn't eat meat. Meat is halal in Islam and nothing wrong with eating it as long as you're not wasteful. Vagans shouldn't eat anything because murdered plants are life form by their flawed logic. Can you murder something just because he can't feel. They shouldn't sit on chairs made from trees because humans cut and murdered these trees. These people live in imaginary world that doesn't exist.

>>27918

No sane person will harm his body like vegetarians do.

>>27972

I've been vegetarian for nearly 30 years. There has been no harm to my body for being such. I am also unconcerned with what other people eat. If you want to eat meat, go right ahead. Why are you so concerned with what I choose to eat?

>>27984

No one is forcing you to eat meat. We won't accept spreading of western mental illness and telling people not to eat meat. It's part of their war on Islam and trying to ban Islamic slaughter.

>>27986

Nobody is forcing you not to eat meat. Have you read this thread at all?

>>27911

>>27907

Read.

>>27987

I was replaying to this part.

>Why are you so concerned with what I choose to eat?

We don't care what you eat.

>>27988

And I was replying to this:

>>27986

>We won't accept spreading of western mental illness and telling people not to eat meat.

Nobody is telling you not to eat meat. We don't care what you eat.

>>27989

Vagans do actually and promote not eating animals.

>>27990

And meat eaters - yourself included - refer to vegetarianism as a "mental illness". What's your point? Nobody is forcing you to not eat meat. You just can't handle that there are people in the world who have the discipline to not do so.

The question is always if animals have souls.

That leads to discerning a cut off point between animal and human. Where does one stop being an animal and has a soul?

Either that or neither have souls.

>>27993

Animals will be alive and gathered on the Day of Judgement like humans. If they have no soul this action of God will be meaningless.

There is no creature moving on the earth, nor a bird flying on its two wings, but they are all communities like you. We have not missed anything in the Book. Then, to their Lord all of them shall be gathered. [6:38]

>>27992

If a muslim thinks eating animals is wrong then that means he thinks God is wrong by allowing us humans to eat animals which means he is a kaffir and not a muslim. I'm speaking about vagans who promote that eating animals is wrong. These are kaffirs and think they know better than God. Not about someone like you.

>>27996

Obviously we cannot declare haram that which Allah has declared halal. I know many Muslim vegetarians and none of us are the contrarian 'ban all meat' types. Since this thread is specifically "from the Islamic perspective", then that's not something you have to worry about.

Ok, yesterday, I basically posted an essay here but later deleted it. But now after seeing these new comments here, it feels like I should've kept it up. Although I fear I might miss something that I posted yesterday. Anyways, here goes :

Before beginning however,

>>27984 No one is "concerned" about what you eat. However, there are people out there who don't like preaching from people who think that they're somehow superior to others or more "disciplined" because they don't eat meat. In here >>27989 you say that vegans/vegetarians don't care what other people eat and when >>27990 points out that there are people out there who advocate for veganism whether by political activism or propaganda or legal means, in >>27992 you attack a strawman and derail the conversation. Are there not people who advocate for veganism/vegetarianism? Are there people who advocate for "meat-eating-ism"? Are there people out there trying to shut down vegan industries? You say "meat eaters" as if it's an insult. You think that people who eat meat are some kind of addicts that have no control over themselves. The Prophet Mohammad(SAWS) ate meat as well. Do you think that you are more disciplined than him? >>27994 In here, you take a verse from the Quran and interpret it according to your own whims.

"If they have no soul this action of God will be meaningless"

So now to claim to know the will of God Himself? I wonder if you also believe that animals have R'uh just like humans. In Islam the concept of 'soul' is not the same as in western cultures. Maybe you should try to actually study tafsirs before posting Quran verses out of context and interpreting them however you want. We don't understand the Quran according to the understanding of random people. We understand it according to the understanding of the Prophet Mohammad(SAWS) and the sahabah. The understanding that has been passed down by scholars over the ages.

>>27997

>veganism from an Islamic perspective

And what's the definition of veganism? What are the philosophies behind this? Go research about it and then come to talk about your "feel-good" theories which have little value in practice. Go to the link in >>27909. As humans we have choices. But trying to "build a system that is even better than what God has prescribed" cannot be "Islamic". It's like a kemalist trying to convince people that so called modern "secularism" is Islamic. Just because some ideas in it are also in Shariat, doesn't make it Islamic. Conservatism/Leftism/Liberalism/Capitalism/Communism/etc. is not Islam. Islam is Islam.

>>28009

cont.

Moving on to the main problem,

We were told to not be excessive and cross limits, but from the Quran and hadith it is clear that we are not discouraged to eat halal meat. If you don't like eating meat, fine. It's your own choice, your own preference. You don't have to plaster the label of vegan/vegetarian over yourself. Doing so takes it from just a habit to something much more. Terms like vegan and vegetarian have political/philosophical and social connotations. Thus when one calls himself a vegan/vegetarian, he accepts that he belongs to these groups and accepts the ideologies and philosophies behind these groups. Nowadays, we have some people who identify as Conservative-Muslim/Liberal-Muslim/feminist-muslims, etc. First and foremost, these people are conservative/liberal/feminist etc. and muslim second. Even if they start by claiming that their paths have religious links and reasons that link to religion, over time, it becomes clear that the initial weak attempt to link Islam to their own ideologies was just a means to do what their heart desired. Over time, it becomes clear that their own whims are more important than their religion and that some of them are even ready to throw away their religion to maintain that path. This level of self-importance can only end in either

1)The person becoming a murtad because he finally realized that his beliefs don't line with religion.

2)The person chooses to go on as usual spreading half-truths and lies like an ignorant

3)The person tries to reform the religion

We have many such examples. In fact, when we look at some rafidis today, we'll see they took "tawassul" to a whole another level. It all started out as just a weak attempt to link their whims and theories to Islam and later they became so deviated that they became borderline mushriks.

Now, the problem with veganism/vegetarianism in particular is that at best, people think it's somehow good for themselves and want the to be associated with the label. At worst, they believe in everything associated with it and wear the label proudly.

Maybe there are even people who consider a kaffir vegan to be closer to him than a good muslim that eats meat. Maybe there are even people who hold their veganism/vegetarianism to a higher standards than religious duties that are explicitly mentioned in Islam.(i.e. considering maintaining their veganism is a higher priority than maintaining their salah/zakat/hajj/etc.)

If a person claims to be muslim, he should consider himself a muslim first and then something else second. If he becomes too much invested in something he should think on it. Think just how much important this thing has become to him and whether he holds his personal "code of discipline" to a higher standard than the code prescribed by God Himself.

What people eat is their own business. Whether it is just grass or bacon or alcohol or halal food. Allah alone knows about the actions of all people. And Allah alone is aware of the motivations behind the actions of all people. Allah knows what we do in secret and in front of people. Allah knows whats in our hearts, our minds. And in the final day of judgement, we will be asked about everything that we did in this life.

May Allah Guide and protect us all.

>>28009

All those words and you don't acknowledge that the meat eater calls vegetarianism a "mental illness". Opinion discarded.

>>28010

If you think Quran is a half-truth, GTFO my board.

>>28015

Where did the "meat eater" insinuate that?

>>28014

You or my personal feelings don't matter when it comes to matters like this. If he thinks that it is a mental illness, it is up to him to explain why he thinks so. From what I've seen, I guess he was referring to how most vegans nowadays act on the internet and irl. By continuously attacking strawman you're not exactly doing yourself any favours. I didn't post my comments to support anyone or anything except the haqq.

It'd be best if you were to actually read and atleast bother to try to understand my comments instead of trying to attack people. Perhaps you should think on why you feel so attacked when people say such things about vegans. Do you feel the same way when the kuffar talk about Islam or muslims? Do you feel attacked when the vegan kuffar slander and attack our Eid ul Adha? Or are you completely fine, dare I say, even somewhat pleased, when the kuffar discuss how halal slaughter should be banned and is cruel?

If so, maybe there's a problem.

>>28015

The kuffar nowadays use Quran verses out of context to spread propaganda. Nowadays, some people who call themselves muslim also also take Quran verses out of context and misinterpret it however they want, according to their whims. That doesn't, in any way, take any authenticity away from the verses of the Quran itself. As a muslim, I do believe The words of the Quran as haqq.

It's interesting, however, how you decided to attack me in this particular part while you didn't address what I've said about the Prophet Mohammad(SAWS) and the link I pointed at.

Also, I should've included these links in my comments, now that I think about it :

http://quransmessage.com/articles/animal%20souls%20FM3.htm

https://islamqa.info/en/11437

I'm generally skeptical and doubtful but I try not to assume things. If you feel like I unnecessarily insulted/hurt you, I apologise. That was not my intention. I only tried to state what I felt needed to be said. Nowadays people take all sorts of stuff to the extreme. So we should be careful about not falling into deviancy.

And Allah knows best.

>>28010

>We were told to not be excessive and cross limits, but from the Quran and hadith it is clear that we are not discouraged to eat halal meat. If you don't like eating meat, fine. It's your own choice, your own preference. You don't have to plaster the label of vegan/vegetarian over yourself. Doing so takes it from just a habit to something much more. Terms like vegan and vegetarian have political/philosophical and social connotations. Thus when one calls himself a vegan/vegetarian, he accepts that he belongs to these groups and accepts the ideologies and philosophies behind these groups. Nowadays, we have some people who identify as Conservative-Muslim/Liberal-Muslim/feminist-muslims, etc. First and foremost, these people are conservative/liberal/feminist etc. and muslim second. Even if they start by claiming that their paths have religious links and reasons that link to religion, over time, it becomes clear that the initial weak attempt to link Islam to their own ideologies was just a means to do what their heart desired. Over time, it becomes clear that their own whims are more important than their religion and that some of them are even ready to throw away their religion to maintain that path.

Couldn't have said it any better. /thread

>>28016

It's not insinuation. He literally said that vegetarianism is a mental illness.

>>28021

I meant

>If you think Quran is a half-truth

You are all cancer. You worship Saturn and a hex black cube. The end of revelation is a gold cube. You would not make it invading the world without help from the synagogue of satan. Everyone hates islam because it is evil.

>>28026

Or perhaps they have all rallied to satan's call against truth?

>>28029

At least he won't reach explosion eventually

>>28026

>You worship Saturn and a hex black cube. The end of revelation is a gold cube.

That's a bit of a non sequitur….

You know the Kaaba isn't actually black, right? That's just a cloth they cover it with…. historically the Kaaba's cloth has also been red, green, or white.