No.8648 [Last50 Posts]
Linux Users Going Their Own Way
It's time for linux users to go our own way. The whole "GNU"/linux ecosystem - more appropriately called the freedesktop/systemd/gnu/chromium/linux operating system.
* The red hat goons basically own the userspace now. If you want to make changes to your system you can send a patch and it wil get dropped. They essentially have 100% control, linux desktop will conform to their vision alone.
* polkit and dbus.. what do these things even do? Yet you have them on your computer most likely.
* GNU glibc is bloated and full of bugs *that GNU software depends on* and it is pro abortion.
* ls / gives about 50 things. for "historical reasons": Translations, if you try to make it simple like 4 or 5 directories all with a clear and distinct purpose every piece of software in existence would break because it's all badly written.
* every single programming language has its own fucking package manage that fights against all the other package managers. Is this a joke? Why are programmers, supposedly smart people, allowing this to happen?
* You have all this FUCKING GARBAGE that is overcomplicated and nobody likes like: systemd, polkit, dbus, gsettings XML schemas. None of this stuff makes sense, the documentation is unhelpful and the systems themselves violate standard UNIX design ideas - I wouldn't have a problem with that if they had actually improved on things.
* The web browser is about 80% of the linux desktop experience now. And while it's technically free software it's nearly monopolized (firefox is digging its own grave) and it's basically impossible to make changes to. lets be honest here.
* The shell's fucked. Try writing a shell script that correctly processes a list of files that might have spaces on tabs in the names. You can do it if you study but everything takes work when it should be simple. Programming with lists of strings shouldn't be so tricky.
* The core sets of software has so much historical baggage that could be cleared away. Did you know ./configure tests if your system uses EBCDIC instead of ASCII? configure performs millions of checks, yet the software usually doesn't work either way.
How about a simple init system that doesn't reimplement half UNIX in a buggy way?
It's time for linux users to go our own way, let's have a simple operating system based on clear understand principles with man pages that explain everything you need to know. There's so much more that could be said but I'm sure you have your own complaints too.
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No.8649
>>8648
Oh look, this thread again. PS If you even want people to follow this an idea you gotta show them that you aren't a retard i.e you haven't even started on anything this is basically like going up to someone and saying let's make an app in which they do all the work and you sit on your fat ass and watch.
Also if you actually are serious about this make it a microkernel so its easier to port to other devices.TY
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No.8657
>>8649
do some research before posting
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No.8715
>>8657
A general purpose distro made with microkernel that isn't years old and well maintained don't exist we have shit implementations and MINIX. Instead of trying to give advice maybe you should follow it.
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No.9334
>>8648
So you have an issue with GNU more so than Linux? Would packaging a distro without the packages you hate be a solution?
I too dislike bash scripting. I actually prefer perl to a degree but that is also terrible. Something clean like python but c-like would be nice.
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No.9335
>>8648
GNU is not Linux. Gnu is just third-party softwares.
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No.9338
>>8648
Have you considered STALI ?
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No.9341
Related: Replacing the Unix Tradition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9v4Mg8wi4U
Also, has anyone here heard of TRON? It's a completely independent OS made by a guy in Japan in the 80s, it's very successful there in industry. They were going to use it in schools all over Japan, but Microsoft lobbied the US government to pressure the Japanese gov into shutting it down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRON_project
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No.9342
>>9341
You can download the TRON source but you need to register (they ask for address and phone number) and the site is in Japanese. These days it looks like they're only interested in big business. But it was originally supposed to be in all computers.
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No.9344
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No.9352
>>8648
I just updated the gnome, all my desktop icons are fucking disappeared..
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No.9371
fix the fucking memory leak then
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No.9374
>>9334
lol honestly just installing python it 10x easier than figuring out bash or shell or whatever
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No.9382
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No.9390
>>9341
Apparently, TRON is a set of specifications for a Real Time Operating System, but not an implementation. An example implementation is available, but companies are supposed to implement themselves for their own products.
Tron is a pretty schway name, but its just an embed OS specification, not really an alternative to Linux on a Desktop or Server. Its sounds like the example implementation is more like a educational tool (cf. minux)
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No.9396
>>9352
>She got raped by Linux users.
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No.9416
I was using os x (hackintosh) from past 2 yrs and omg aqua-dm is taking almost 5 gb , and then switch to Void Linux (no systemD) and never install DM installed WM (bspwm), oh boy 500 mb that actually I want , no shit bloted editer just emacs and I love with GNU/linux.
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No.9460
Remember: the only thing that "prevents" a licensor from "going back on his word" is if the licensee has an interest in the property.
An interest is created when the licensee pays the licensor for permission to use the property, or in other cases when the licensor induces the licensee to make payments to third parties for the improvement of real property (land) in reliance on the licensor (this is usually in a inheritance case: estate disputes licensor's dispensations to licensee).
Here the licensee paid the licensor nothing. If there was a "promise not to revoke" (which there isn't even in the GPL2), it is inoperative without the licensee "buying" that "right".
Linux licensing operates under the same principals.
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No.9461
> https://opensource.com/article/19/2/cla-problems
>License revocation: Some CLA advocates warn of the prospect that a contributor may someday attempt to revoke a past license grant. To the extent that the concern is about largely judgment-proof individual contributors with no corporate affiliation, it is not clear why an Apache-style CLA provides more meaningful protection against this outcome compared to the use of an open source license. And, as with so many of the legal risks raised in discussions of open source legal policy, this appears to be a phantom risk. I have heard of only a few purported attempts at license revocation over the years, all of which were resolved quickly when the contributor backed down in the face of community pressure.
Notice how they hand-wave it.
"Guy backed down, don't look behind this curtain"
You can revoke. Their only power against you is getting you fired/blackballed. If you do not give a shit about their "industry" you C A N fuck them completely. You have revoke and sue, and you really want to do so in a bloc with like minded, once you get the ball rolling, it's the doom of the project.
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No.9462
>>9461
You can revoke your contribution to open source commmunities in some countries since you didn't make any contractions with money. If you got money for that, you can't revoke it wherever you live.
I think you can revoke your contributions to any open source communities and it might have an effect in South Korea.
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No.9496
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No.9500
Where is my Linux distro I can use on IPhone X without Google Play account?
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No.9639
>>9416
wow you must rly love coffee!
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No.10787
>>8648
Installing gentoo frees you from red hat niggerfaggots
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No.10788
>>8648
-It's true that Red Hat does the majority of the decisions, but it isn't 100%. Thanks to Linux being opensource, we have stable projects like Gentoo, Artix Linux, and Devuan.
-It's true it's bloated. But again, thanks to all of it being opensource and modular you can just replace glibc with musl and the gnu coreutils with something like busybox.
-Making a new standard would mean getting rid of legacy software, and making things for programmers a lot harder.
-True, but unless you use a shitty system package manager, the majority of them have available most of the packages that you install with language packagers such as pip.
-Kek, so what's your alternative for polkit and dbus? Polkit is the power management on your system which tells Linux what to do when your laptop's lid is closed or you push the power button. Dbus is pretty much a mitm for processes communicating with themselves. Good luck writing an alternative for both.
- You know you just need to add a \ before each space, right? Also, what's your alternative? Command without spaces?
- That's a good argument, but I don't see how it's "reimplementing half-Unix"
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No.10791
>>9334
>>9374
Cant tell if this is bait
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No.10792
>>8648
Making techincal issues political is everything thats wrong with the world. I cant understand how a c library could have a political position on abortion but i absolutley dont care if it does. Quit bieng an sjw.
Also, why does every thread get hijacked by MikeeUSA. Go learn a real programming language Mike.
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No.10793
>let's have a simple operating system based on clear understand principles with man pages
have you tried using the 'man' command? literally mauals for every piece of software. install openBSD.
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No.11060
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No.11189
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No.11208
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No.11217
>>8648
I already switched to OpenBSD. So far everything works and Wifi at least is much more Unixy than the incompatible, competing hacks on Linux.
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No.11227
>>10788
>Polkit is the power management on your system which tells Linux what to do when your laptop's lid is closed or you push the power button.
What?
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No.11255
Linux was never good. UNIX is literally a bloated proprietary piece of shit from the 60s which, just like modern Microsoft, fucked up every possible thing. It's made by corporate boomer absolute fuckjobs who can't even do a single piece of engineering correctly.
>uhhh dawww, Bob? We need to have a GUI
<okay John, I added a new control code to the terminal layer
>uhh but now when I cat a file I got from Jake, it takes over the screen
Linux is simply a free version of UNIX.
Everyone who worships Linux is a fucking LARPer retard. Literally the same behavior as retard boomers who just want to suck the biggest dick they can find.
>oh well 100 years ago murica made the Model T, capitalism is so good and everything they make is excellent and i aspire to
The entire """hacker""" community for the last 30 years are braindamaged fucks.
==UNIX is NOT a hacker OS==. By the time you implement 3 fucking POSIX functions, or simply a terminal emulator, you have more code than a hacker OS should be in total. A bunch of fucking oblivious morons you all are, thinking an OS is some mystical thing that needs 1000 billion lines of code to run.
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No.11268
>>11255
So which is it, anon? TempleOS or Kolibrios?
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No.11272
>>11255
>The entire """hacker""" community for the last 30 years are braindamaged fucks.
Fun fact anon, geniuses tend to be savants or autists, or fucked up in some other ways, good can't exist without a condition of evil, like yin and yang, a little evil in good, a little good in evil, Einstein fucked his cousin, and Walt Disney was a nazi lover, you can't expect the world to be perfect, pretty sure you must have some fucked up secret, something you keep hidden in that brain, we're all erroneous, whether it comes to the terminal or life, also, all operating systems are hacking OS, you just have to hack them into hacking OS. :)
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No.11277
>>11272
OS dev is not for geniuses, it's for average hackers. UNIX makes you into a brainlet that cannot understand such a simple truth. This is UNIX braindamage.
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No.11292
>>11277
Don't you remember that scene from Jurassic Park? Unix with graphical UI was the best hacker OS back then.
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No.11293
>>8648
>The red hat goons basically own the userspace now. If you want to make changes to your system you can send a patch and it wil get dropped. They essentially have 100% control, linux desktop will conform to their vision alone.
in what way? You don't have to use GNOME, you know? KDE is still a thing, as are multiple other DEs and a variety of comfy window managers.
>* polkit and dbus.. what do these things even do? Yet you have them on your computer most likely.
Well let's look it up then, shall we?
"Polkit (formerly PolicyKit) is a component for controlling system-wide privileges in Unix-like operating systems. It provides an organized way for non-privileged processes to communicate with privileged ones."
Basically, this is what allows you to click the menu button and then click power off, reboot, etc buttons from a DE and have it actually work. If this didn't exist, you would have to run the whole DE as root, which is poor security practice. Better to run it as user and then give it specific extra privileged actions it needs.
"D-Bus provides additional or simplifies existing functionality to the applications, including information-sharing, modularity and privilege separation. For example, information on an incoming voice-call received through Bluetooth or Skype can be propagated and interpreted by any currently-running music player, which can react by muting the volume or by pausing playback until the call is finished."
"D-Bus can also be used as a framework to integrate different components of a user application. For instance, an office suite can communicate through the session bus to share data between a word processor and a spreadsheet."
Pretty crystal clear.
>ls / gives about 50 things. for "historical reasons": Translations, if you try to make it simple like 4 or 5 directories all with a clear and distinct purpose every piece of software in existence would break because it's all badly written.
on my system, ls / gives 19 things. Not 50. Also, software is not "badly written" because it is written in accordance with standards. You are simply badly administrating by not understanding why things are in the places they are.
I agree that it could be better, and an OS designed entirely from the ground up today would strip down the directory structure and rename everything to be clearer, but what we have now works. Changing it would require every person to ever write Linux or UNIX software to rewrite it to satisfy your autism. This could be done very simply if one entity controlled the entire stack, but oh wait, you don't like that (neither do I for that matter). If you care so much, support GoboLinux.
1/2
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No.11294
>>8648
2/2
>* every single programming language has its own fucking package manage that fights against all the other package managers. Is this a joke? Why are programmers, supposedly smart people, allowing this to happen?
Ok yeah that's a pain in the ass. It wouldn't really matter that much, except for the fact that distros start putting language packages in their own package manager. Like python requests as a deb package, yet it's also commonly a pip package.
So yay, you get one point.
>* You have all this FUCKING GARBAGE that is overcomplicated and nobody likes like: systemd, polkit, dbus, gsettings XML schemas. None of this stuff makes sense, the documentation is unhelpful and the systems themselves violate standard UNIX design ideas - I wouldn't have a problem with that if they had actually improved on things.
Well we already covered polkit and dbus, so I don't need to go over those. They're vital for standard desktop functionality circa 1998. As for gsettings, that's GNOME shit. If you're not on GNOME it's not a thing. Systemd is also optional. I hear MX Linux is gaining popularity quite a bit among the Linuxy crowd, and that still uses sysvinit. You can also take the Gentoopill, or use one of the many other distros that make more minimalist design decisions.
Also I love that you now all of a sudden care about UNIX when just a bit ago you were bitching about the filesystem hierarchy.
>* The web browser is about 80% of the linux desktop experience now. And while it's technically free software it's nearly monopolized (firefox is digging its own grave) and it's basically impossible to make changes to. lets be honest here.
The web browser is about 80% of EVERYONE'S experience now. This is not a linux thing. Win and Mac are the same way now
>* The shell's fucked. Try writing a shell script that correctly processes a list of files that might have spaces on tabs in the names. You can do it if you study but everything takes work when it should be simple. Programming with lists of strings shouldn't be so tricky.
I don't think I understand the question. If all the files in question are in a directory I'm pretty sure you can just loop over the directory's contents without having to parse the names, unless maybe your processing involves the names I guess. Also, if shell scripting is becoming exceptionally unwieldy that might be a sign of needing to use a larger scripting language.
>* The core sets of software has so much historical baggage that could be cleared away. Did you know ./configure tests if your system uses EBCDIC instead of ASCII?
Did you know Linux and UNIX are still used on mainframes? It's true!!
So yeah outside of programming language package managers I don't see the problem here. It just sounds like there's options that you don't know about and aren't taking advantage of, and you resort to crying instead.
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No.11300
>>11293
KDE is trash. install nedit
>Ok yeah that's a pain in the ass. It wouldn't really matter that much, except for the fact that distros start putting language packages in their own package manager. Like python requests as a deb package, yet it's also commonly a pip package.
OP is completely right. Every mainstream language right now, include versions of them released 20 years ago have absolutely no difference. Literally the reason one company picks one language over the other comes down to made up reasons, every single fucking time. Even if UNIX would just stick to C and ==ONE==, FUCKING ONE scripting language, it would be 10 billion times better than current situation. Every mainstream PL is complicated enough to spend 15 years becoming an expert on (to the point where you can audit underhanded code), this is not some naive claim, nor an overstatement, this is how it is, because the languages are garbage. The least the nigger community could do is stick to fucking ONE intead of 15.
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No.11301
that's why i use cloveros brehs
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No.11318
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No.11319
>>11293
>>11294
>breaking your post into parts
idiot plebbitor
Dbus, polkit and systemd amongst others are backboors installed by (((red hat))).
You can't justify them. Nigger red hat shill.
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No.11320
>>11319
>idiot plebbitor
8kun told me the post was too long. I had no choice.
>Dbus, polkit are backboors
>You can't justify them.
I just did. Learn to read, and also to spell.
>systemd
I did not defend it if you think that's what I was doing. I very much dislike it too, which is why I provided some alternatives. Here's some more: Artix, Void, Devuan, AntiX, Parabola OpenRC, GuixSD, Funtoo, Calculate Linux. You're welcome.
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No.11321
>>11318
That would be great. the Genode project has their Sculpt OS, although the user interfaces were a bit too abstract and confusing for my tastes, at least when I tried it.
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No.11389
Anyone want to try and port Minix 3 to seL4 with me? I freely admit to being merely pajeet tier on a good day. I do have a physical copy of Tanenbaum, however.
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No.11393
>>11320
You can't justify these backdoors. You did not even say "we could make them better". You are okay with still having them.
Where did I spell wrong, you idiot nigger?
>>11389
>minix
Literally an nsa os. Don't even touch it.
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No.11397
>>11393
>Literally an nsa os. Don't even touch it.
lmao. Yeah it's used in ME, but it's tiny and the source code is easy to audit. I mean, there's a big thick textbook explaining every line. I'd trust it more than I trust Linux.
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No.11400
>>11060
I lurk for gems like these
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No.11412
>>11397
Don't you know that (((tannenbaum))) cooperated with the USA dod and the nsa to backdoor the os, to make it suitable for its inclusion in the (((intel me)))? He's one of (((their))) agents. The official story is "different" of course.
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No.11413
>>11412
The os isn't backdoored in itself. It just runs the me. In addition, that version is a separate closed source os thanks to the cuck license.
The project isn't so much about Minix anyway. It's about seL4 and eventually making a POSIX environment for it.
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No.11485
>ctrl+f freebsd
>0 results
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No.12685
> ls / gives about 50 things. for "historical reasons"
have you heard of nixos? (or guix system if you also don't like systemd)
https://nixos.wiki/wiki/NixOS
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No.12694
>>9352
>using GNOME
You are a cunt.
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No.12743
>>11293
Any decent OS has built-in IPC mechanisms. D-Bus is unneeded, unwanted, over-engineered bloat, imsg is better.
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No.12745
>>11320
I hope you like getting your UUID leaked across all that communication going in and out of D-Bus, loser
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No.12764
>>11272
>Walt Disney was a nazi lover
so he was a good guy.
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No.12782
>>12764
if you need another reason to hate walt disney he's also the reason copyright lasts the creator's life plus infinity years
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No.12801
>>12782
Probably one of the few reasons to love him. Why would you want someone stealing your intellectual property?
Disney is shit, but basic bitches love it, so even in times like this DIS is a good stock if you plan to hold longterm.
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No.12851
>>11293
>I agree that it could be better, and an OS designed entirely from the ground up today would strip down the directory structure and rename everything to be clearer, but what we have now works.
No, it doesn't. GNOME is a fucking joke, even down to GTK, gobject, cairo (if that's considered part of gnome), etc. Consider suicide.
>>12743
>Any decent OS has built-in IPC mechanisms.
The most non-opinion ever to hit the internet. Obviously any OS will have IPC. Whether it's "built in" is totally irrelevant. But yes, contrary to this retard >>11293, typical IPC solutions provided on Linux are all garbage and the ones that are even slightly good have 10 competing solutions running in parallel all with overlapping purposes.
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No.12852
>>11293
>I agree that it could be better, and an OS designed entirely from the ground up today would strip down the directory structure and rename everything to be clearer, but what we have now works.
No, it doesn't. GNOME is a fucking joke, even down to GTK, gobject, cairo (if that's considered part of gnome), etc. Consider suicide.
>>12743
>Any decent OS has built-in IPC mechanisms.
The most non-opinion ever to hit the internet. Obviously any OS will have IPC. Whether it's "built in" is totally irrelevant. But yes, contrary to this retard >>11293, typical IPC solutions provided on Linux are all garbage and the ones that are even slightly good have 10 competing solutions running in parallel all with overlapping purposes.
DAY OF THE SEAL SOON
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No.12853
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No.12878
>>12801
>stealing
see pic related
not to mention Walt died 54 years ago, his shit should be public domain now
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No.12880
Ive found OpenBSD to be many of the things you seek in a unix based system. Proper, documented and very simple for a genius to understand.
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No.12885
>>12878
allow me to interject -- piracy (noun) is defined as "the practice of attacking and robbing ships at sea"; using it in place of "unauthorized copying" is a misnomer.
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No.12886
I've found those tiny live distros bring back the joy of linux.
I was surprised by how good SliTaz is.
antiX is for commie anime faggots.
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No.12895
>>9352
> audibly laughed when I read that
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No.12900
>>11293
>Basically, this is what allows you to click the menu button and then click power off, reboot, etc buttons from a DE and have it actually work. If this didn't exist, you would have to run the whole DE as root, which is poor security practice.
No, you open a fucking terminal an type sudo poweroff like any normal person.
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No.12903
>>12900
the virgin "poweroff" the CHAD halt -p
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No.12918
>>12903
echo disk > /sys/power/state
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No.12924
>>12918
I've been yanking the cord on my chinkpad from '07 and the original hard drive still works.
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