2e7682 No.854302 [Last50 Posts]
How to stop hating cessationists? Honestly they make me so angry. They don't even have a single scripture to back up their cowardly nonsense. But I am getting increasingly hostile towards such people. I mean they are literally speaking against the Spirit of God and limiting God's providence and power. These people are only saved in spite of their foolish doctrine, not because of it.
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8a8a71 No.854309
Maybe it just ended with Martin Luther and King Henry for you guys.
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aa41d6 No.854325
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8a8a71 No.854335
>>854325
>Is this bait?
I donno. Not even if you're replying to my Catholic flag, smart remark or to Op. For all I know, you're that guy who likes to personally insult me because you hate the Catholic faith.
Protestants have all kinds of strange beliefs. This seems to be about Op's hate of another Protestant (non) denomination.
Google Image search says Op's picture is this Paster John F. MacArthur of a "non-denominational" church in Sun Valley :Non-denominational seems to mean a denomination of 1 church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._MacArthur
Never heard of Cessationism before Op's post. Not sure what that is other than the wikipedia page. It seems to be centered on the issue of a lack of miracles in protestant religions and a dispute between pentacostals and other protestants.
Catholics believe in Saints like Padre Pio, who clearly had grace. We're not cessationist. For us, miracles happen often. Blessed is he who believes without seeing, tho. Which is why I didn't need the warnings of Fatima and Akita to know that there is a Great Apostasy in the Vatican and the Great Chastisement is upon us.
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aa41d6 No.854338
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8a8a71 No.854340
>>854338
Ah. You are that childish name calling fellow.
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aa41d6 No.854341
>>854340
No, you're a weirdo with persecutory delusions
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69c42e No.854349
If you get angry over the very idea that people exist who disagree with you on a tertiary issue you're the one with the problem
>They don't even have a single scripture to back up their cowardly nonsense
<Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
<I Corinthians 13:8
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b0b71e No.854361
>>854349
speaking against the power of the Spirit and His mysteries is not a "tertiary issue"
Are you seriously claiming that knowledge has ceased? You'd have to be to claim that passage supports cessation of the Spiritual Gifts. Thus even Mccarthur isn't that ridiculous and merely says the gifts of tongues and healing have not been evident in the church since the canonization of scripture. Clearly I Corinthians 13:8 is talking about seeing through a glass dimly until we are "face to face" with Christ. The reason you like cessationism is because you are afraid of doing spiritual warfare. Simple as.
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b0b71e No.854363
>>854349
> you're the one with the problem
I also admitted this. This is what the thread is about. How I shouldn't have such hostility towards such people and you have done 0 (zero) to sharpen me in this area with your post.
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69c42e No.854366
>>854361
Show me credible examples of tongues or healing
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e39237 No.854368
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>854366
Is healing from demons good enough?
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69c42e No.854369
>>854368
No, that's not externally verifiable outside of behavior
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e39237 No.854370
>>854369
Do you even have faith? You live by sight?
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69c42e No.854371
>>854370
Are you unable to provide proof?
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e39237 No.854373
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69c42e No.854374
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e39237 No.854375
>>854374
Why are you talking like an atheist? Can you prove the creation account or the flood or the parting of the Red Sea? Surely you take those things on faith because the word says so. Well the word also says the Spirit will impart gifts to the church until the end of this world. Deal with it.
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69c42e No.854376
>>854375
I am a cessationist because I believe it is what the text teaches. It happens that if your reading were true we would see evidence which could quickly resolve the debate.
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e39237 No.854377
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
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69c42e No.854378
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e39237 No.854379
>>854378
It's only been a few minutes. You didn't listen to the message by Lloyd Jones. Not only are you conceited and dishonest, you are lazy. Why are you throwing stumbling stones in front of your feet like this?
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69c42e No.854380
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69c42e No.854382
>>854379
I was on the app, now I see you linked a lecture.
Can you tell me how the lecture resolves the issue of the lack of evidence? Or is this just an exposition of the text?
I'm not interested in changing the subject unless we can find evidence in favor or if you concede none can be found
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afede5 No.854384
>>854377
>10:18-10:22
>It's quite obvious that "spiritists" can speak in tongues
>There's no question about this at all
Uh, yes there is.
Tongues is never called a gift. It is a sign, something that followed the apostles specifically. It was something that followed the Apostles. Speaking in foreign tongues simultaneously (as in Acts 2) is something that was specially associated with the personal ministry of the Apostles, the same exact people who wrote the New Testament. That's why tongues is listed along with being safe from snake venom in Mark chapter 16.
It's never called a gift. People who confuse tongues with the spiritual gifts that are always active in the churches, are just promoting false doctrine. And they can't speak in multiple languages at once. It's just babbling.
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69c42e No.854392
>>854384
I disagree. I think tongues are categorized as spiritual gifts in 1 cor 14
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17b986 No.854400
>>854382
Ah sorry. I didn't know there was a way to access the site and not see the videos. I figured you were just dismissing the idea that you could even be wrong about this to the extent you wouldn't even listen to it. Anyway, Martyn Lloyd Jones actually does bring up testimonies in the video. Biblical teaching from a minister as fruitful as MLJ should count as evidence for you, especially since I'm guessing you're a Calvinist (not many cesationists are not in my experience). Also, as far as I'm concerned I gave you the best video evidence I could. You have to understand that David Lynn is rock solid and has been tried for hate-speech because of rigorously evangelizing at pride parades across Canada. Harden not your heart against the truth. God is Spirit and the devil is a spirit and we wage war with God's Spirit against a spiritual realm as the scriptures say.
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17b986 No.854401
>>854392
Has knowledge ceased?
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69c42e No.854404
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69c42e No.854405
>>854400
I'm not a calvinist. I think highly of martin lloyd jones but if he talks about it this is just a second or third hand testimony. Are you aware of any alleged video evidence? Especially healing?
Rejecting the current practice of tongues does not mean rejecting the reality of spiritual warfare.
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17b986 No.854406
>>854404
But you quoted I Corinthians 13:8 which says even knowledge will vanish away. How are the other mentioned gifts of prophecy and tongues not parallel to "knowledge" in the passage?
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69c42e No.854408
>>854406
At the time of writing none of them were ceased. Today the first two have ostensibly ceased, and further the role of them has been accomplished. Knowledge is a thing not like the other two and has not ceased. I'm not aware of anyone who maybe argues knowledge has a special meaning in that context and has also ceased.
This is not a defeater for the cessationist position.
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17b986 No.854410
>>854349
>>854408
>I'm not aware of anyone who maybe argues knowledge has a special meaning in that context and has also ceased.
Exactly, those would even be exclusive positions but either one would be absurd and untenable. Clearly, if knowledge has not ceased on the basis outlined in I Corinthians 13:8 (namely that we be "face-to-face" with "the perfect" who is Christ) then neither should have tongues or prophecy in particular. So you see, we come full circle to where cessationism has no scriptural substance.
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17b986 No.854411
>>854410
I corinthians 13:10*
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69c42e No.854413
>>854410
Today I tell you "I will give you an orange, an apple, and a banana". Tomorrow I give you an orange and an apple. A week later I haven't given you a banana yet.
Did I not give you the first two because you haven't received the third?
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17b986 No.854416
>>854413
Book chapter verse?
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69c42e No.854417
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17b986 No.854419
>>854417
what relevance does your analogy have to scripture? Where does it say God is going to cause the gifts to cease one by one? From my perspective this whole part of I Corinthians 13 isn't even especially doctrinal but a mere reminder that we are operating with a partial picture of the Glory of our Lord. Therefore I find the idea that we are even talking about the apple orange and banana in the first place pretty preposterous. Since other things that will cease at such time which Paul has not mentioned here include the current earth, the current heavens and sin.
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69c42e No.854421
>>854419
My point is to illustrate that I can consistently read 1 Corinthians 13 and conclude that at this time we are without tongues and prophecy while with knowledge. Your criticism does not disprove cessationism, it's a strawman.
Can we wrap up the evidence issue? Are you aware of any compelling or even plausible evidence of tongues or miraculous healing via spiritual gifts, or prophecy?
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afede5 No.854422
>>854400
Why are you continuing on while not answering your refutation? Is it because you operate to prey on the spiritually weak? That's a rhetorical question for the readers. I already know you do at this point, and you preach a false Christ. Another false prophet with no sense to stand up before the truth that you cannot face here. >>854384
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69c42e No.854424
>>854423
1 Corinthians 14:1-2
1. Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
In the kjv as in nasb and some others "gifts" is italicized because it's implied but not present. He says "desire spiritual gifts", then talks about tongues and prophecy. It seems to me that these are just some examples of spiritual gifts to the author.
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afede5 No.854429
>>854424
Most people try to use 1 Corinthians 12 to argue this point, but it doesn't work. The sign of speaking in tongues, as described in Mark 16, which is written as, "speaking with new tongues" or "γλώσσαις λαλήσουσιν καιναῖς," was, as I described above, a sign that followed after the apostles in order to mark them out. You will notice that nobody today repeats the things listed in Mark 16 as signs of the apostles, of which speaking in new tongues was one. There are not Christians today who are immune from snake venom as Paul was in Acts 28:5-6, because that was supposed to mark out the apostles who are also the same group who wrote the New Testament.
These men had their own role to fulfill, as it says in 2 Peter 1:21, "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
If you personally want to call "speaking in tongues" a gift, there is nobody stopping you from doing it. I don't even think there was ever supposed to be a fixed list of them, like the spiritual gifts go so far and stop at a certain point. But what both of you are saying, both being wrong as you go against the Bible, would not be the Biblical usage of the term given in Scripture for the "signs." Now you would be confusing the signs of the apostles for the spiritual gifts that every church would have, which is the error of the man that was linked earlier.
>He says "desire spiritual gifts", then talks about tongues and prophecy.
That is an incomplete context. In 1 Corinthians 14:22, Paul wrote, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
So we see Paul contrasted the two here. If you actually read the chapter/book as a whole, all along the word of God is clearly showing how prophesying is actually the thing that warrants being coveted after. He wrote in 1 Corinthians 12, "But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." Then in 1 Corinthians 14, he wrote "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues."
So notice Paul never says "covet to speak with tongues," he only says "covet to prophesy." Because prophesying is an actual gift in the Biblical sense. And in this very same passage (1 Corinthians 14:22) he actually contrasts tongues with prophesying, rather than, as you alluded, making them the same.
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69c42e No.854430
>>854429
>So we see Paul contrasted the two here
>the word of God is clearly showing how prophesying is actually the thing that warrants being coveted after.
no, you're mistaking the term "rather" in the language of the KJV. It means "especially" here.
https://biblehub.com/greek/3123.htm
you're also being needlessly condescending
The fact that tongues was a sign does not mean it wouldn't also be classified as a gift.
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17b986 No.854431
>>854421
Why talk about cessationism or attempt to 'disprove' it when the scriptures don't speak about it in the first place? I don't need to disprove Bertrand Russel's teapot either…
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17b986 No.854432
>>854422
>preach a false Christ
Watch it. You want to damn yourself saying doctrinal disputes amount to preaching a false Christ?
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69c42e No.854433
>>854431
The Bible doesn't say "trinity" either
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65538c No.854434
>>854433
Okay, well we do exegesis to prove the Trinity. Feel free to present your exegesis for cessationism. We've already safely debunked I Corinthians 13:8 as a prooftext for it. Feel free to make a case from other scriptures.
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69c42e No.854435
>>854434
Sure. Here's an exegetical argument I find compelling that excludes 1 Cor 13.
https://www.metropolitantabernacle.org/Christian-Article/Cessationism-Proving-Charismatic-Gifts-have-Ceased-Sword-and-Trowel-Magazine
>The book of Acts says specifically that healings and wonders were exclusive to the apostles, who have now passed away.
If you're the same poster, can you admit that you have no available proof in favor of miracle healing, or prophecy, or tongues? If you do, can you furnish it?
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afede5 No.854441
>>854430
>no, you're mistaking the term "rather" in the language of the KJV.
Is this a response to me? Where did I even say this, anon?
I quoted 1 Corinthians 14:22. This is the example of the contrast. Where does 1 Corinthians 14:22 say what you refer to?
The other verse I quoted was 1 Corinthians 14:39. Where does it say that there either? How does what you said address the earlier point in any way?
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afede5 No.854442
>>854432
>doctrinal disputes
First off, doctrinal disputes really have no place in the church. If you reject and push away the doctrine of Christ, which is straight from Scripture, then you will find yourself outside of the church because as it says, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." And also "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20.
But what you have done here is not that. You are just flat out preaching a false god. That's different than a doctrinal dispute. The mindless rambling you refer to is not of God, it is of devils. There is no doubt in my mind that people are being possessed by unclean spirits and calling it pentecostalism. And that is in absolute terms NOT God and never was. The sign of speaking in new tongues that is spoken of in Scripture is something attributed to the apostles, it involved speaking in actual foreign languages as in Acts 2, and this is the fact that you have been unable to so much as countenance, that truth. And, as long as you remain an unbeliever, you cannot even stand before that truth or respond in any way.
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afede5 No.854443
>>854432
>>854442
And just to add to my other post, I have no fear of your false gods, other anon. Nothing bad will happen to me for this. You have been preaching a false god, not the Holy Spirit. I have absolute certainty that this is so and upon consideration I will gladly stake everything that this is true.
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69c42e No.854444
>>854441
The two are not being contrasted in context. Today's use of "rather" would mean contrast, but the translators' intended meaning is "especially".
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afede5 No.854447
>>854444
I have no idea what you are talking about, first anon. Are you even replying to my posts?
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afede5 No.854448
>>854444
>>854447
1 Corinthians 14:22 says this:
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1 Corinthians 14:39 says this:
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
Where do either of these contain the word "rather" or "especially"?
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69c42e No.854449
>>854447
>>854448
I am entirely looking at the wrong passage. I was still looking at the one I cited.
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afede5 No.854450
>>854449
Ok, very well then. But anyways, thanks for joining the conversation and I hope things go well for you.
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5a0fa5 No.854458
>>854443
>>854442
>>854442
>>854443
At this point I think you have the false god. Your god is confined to a book, not an active living God, operating in His world today. But the biggest evidence that your god is a false god is you are willing to cause your brother to stumble just to be right. You won't be judged for cessationism, rather you will be judged for trying to shake my faith. You don't even tell me I am confused but simply say I am not a Christian. Therefore you are not a Christian. Repent. You are no better than a Catholic who would say my experiences of God are prelest because they didn't make me Catholic. You're a coward and a devil and not a Christian at all. You do not know the Lord. You know a book and you have false assurance because you have no fruit.
1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
There's your supernatural tongues…
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