/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>853774

We don't need people wanting to be saints, we need God. Every land is mediocre with weeds and wheat together.

>>853788

>be sinner.

>Yeah, faith.Got it.

>goes back to sinning and defying God.

>>853794

Who are you quoting?

>>853796

I'm paraphrasing Luther when he said "sin boldly" because he claimed it annoyed the devil knowing that you could sin and still be saved.

Look, you guys need to either say "faith and stop sinning and do as the Lord says" or shut up with the "faith alone" and misleading souls to hell shtick. That's just double talk and wicked as all get out. It's not faith alone and you guys get all upset when you're called out on it.

>>853796

You know Luther, right? The Priest who married the nun and told some rich guy he could have two wives. He also said slaughter the peasants because they took him literally about communal property.

>>853800

You're very argumentative.

I'm no Lutheran but those criticisms range from legitimate to cherry picks and outright lies. Can you keep it in one of the many threads we've already had on this topic?

Also I just need to keep asking, are you currently involved in a church? Avoiding the question means "no".

>>853794

God is neither interested in human "good" (asceticism) nor human "evil" (lasciviousness). Both are filthiness in the eyes of God (Psalm 14:1-3 KJV). Since whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23 KJV), no one can do any righteous and good works without faith. Therefore, while you separate people into "good" and "evil" categories, God only sees sin in all cases, unless they have faith in him.

Since Christ's sacrifice on the cross covers all sins under the law, even murder and adultery are forgiven, as demonstrated by David (2 Samuel 11:3-4,14-17; Psalm 51, 32; Romans 4:6-10 KJV).

God judges you in one of two ways. Either you declare yourself to be righteous, and God judges your righteousness as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6 KJV) and casts you into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15 KJV). Or, you ask God for mercy because you recognize you are ungodly, and God justifies you and gives you the free gift of eternal life. This is summed up in Luke 18:10-14 KJV.

God can only be pleased by faith (Hebrews 11:6 KJV).

If you demand that God judges a rapist by his works, then he also must judge you by your works (Romans 2:11 KJV) and send you to the lake of fire as well, since "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23 KJV) and you're just as guilty of sin and worthy of hellfire as he is (Romans 6:23; James 2:10 KJV). Ultimately, you are just saying that you are better than other sinners and that God owes you eternal life due to your own merit, which is completely false and shows man's sinful pride, which is a sin in of itself.

>>853787

You're right, it's really not that complicated. It's simply a matter of following the teachings of Christ and His Church.

>>853788

>might be saved

Will be saved. The Church's teachings are clear, even if some practicing Catholics are humble enough to not be the judge of their own salvation.

>if you get the steps from some heretical horny monk, it doesn't count

Gee, I wonder why that is?

>the Bible says … Faith alone

No it doesn't. Not even in the 66-book version Luther created. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (KJV) says

<Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Key words: And such WERE some of you… but no longer, because they repented! "Sin boldly" is a disgusting, heretical teaching.

>>853803

The view that *all works* in and of themselves are filthiness can only be attained by a flat-out ignorance of the works of the Old Testament prophets, priests and patriarchs, and what Scripture has to say on the matter.

There are many instances where Scripture plainly states that the works of these men were pleasing to God whether that be sacrifices (Gen 4:4, 8:21 etc), or fasting coupled with repentance:

>And God saw their *works,* that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Jonah 3:10.

So you provided a citation to Psalm 14; how in light of the Scriptures I've just provided are we then to interpret that short psalm? By actually reading it in context of the very first verse:

>14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. *They* are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

David/the Holy Spirit through him, is clearly talking about the heathen, that not one of them is good. He's not talking about those with faith in God who scripture tells us is pleased by the works of such, and even holds the view that certain people were "righteous" through their faith first and foremost, then by their works. (Luke 1:6)

It is our faith that actualizes our works as pleasing in the sight of God. This is a view that reconciles:

James 2:

>2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

>2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my ***faith

by my works.***

with Eph 2:

>2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

>2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To conclude, going back to the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9-14), in light of the body of Scipture, I think it's quite clear that the Pharisee was, at least to the extent of God's law, righteous.

Yet he sullied all of it in letting Pride, the greatest of all sins, and the basis of all other sins, get the better of him.

Whereas the publican was exalted because of his sincere contrition and humility before our most merciful and loving God. That humility and contrition was in fact, an act of true righteousness.

>>853802

>You're very argumentative.

And you're not. Why? Because ad homs and making the discussion about me specifically is a logical fallacy.

My use of "You guys" was colloquial usage for "all those who say 'faith alone'" as in "if you believe X, then Y". The "you" is used as an indeterminate hypothetical genderless personal pronoun

When you use "You", it's about the poster.

>I'm no Lutheran but those criticisms range from legitimate to cherry picks and outright lies.

The say why the criticisms are wrong, show why it's neglectful induction. Petulant posts are not discussion. You have to examine the validity of the primace and the soundness of the logic.

> Can you keep it in one of the many threads we've already had on this topic?

Please stop posting.

>Also I just need to keep asking, are you currently involved in a church? Avoiding the question means "no"

Again, you go for the ad hom. What is it with you that you feel a need to attack people and change the subject.

>>853806

>>853807

Both good arguments on the fallacy and folly of "faith alone"!

Luther clearly ignored the parts of the Bible that he didn't like, and good works and giving up sin were clearly things he didn't like.

>>853839

Nice. Cherry picking the parts of the Bible yo like.

Matthew 7:16-20

''16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock,''

There's that Pope Saint Peter the Rock reference again!

No good fruit? Produce wicked fruit? You go to hell.

And you're right, Faith is required. You have to have both, not just Faith or Good works, both Faith and Good works.

No works? go to hell. Not saved.

"Faith alone" is not going to fool the Lord. He warned against this. It isn't heaven for faith and then brownie points for Good works. You accept Christ as Lord and you do what he says.

>>853845

I can explain the catholic position. Can you correctly explain what sola fide means to protestants, and how it relates to what you just said? Do you know where you're misrepresenting it?

Also, are you a member of a parish? Why wouldn't you want to enthusiastically answer "yes"? It is relevant because your entire point revolves around doing good works in the church. An ad hominem argument is one which attacks the person and not the argument.

You guys are wandering from the OP I have been told to begome gadolic so many times I'm starting to believe but why do you go to church on sunday instead of saturday like a jew and muslim why change the day of worship

>>853868

Do you have a church?

>>853871

>why do you go to church on sunday instead of saturday like a jew and muslim why change the day of worship

Because Christ arose from the dead on a Sunday, the first day of the week. When Jesus rose from the dead it was the start of the new covenant of Jesus Christ. Christians and most protestants thus keep Sunday as a holy day and the day of worship.

>>853877

Feel free to start a thread about me because you're off topic.

>>853839

>Does this contradict anything in here so far?

No.

>His point is about anything WITHOUT faith being unrighteous

I wholly believe in that too; my reply was formed accounting for his comment as a whole, retroactively applying, thereby addressing the view of works and justification he testified to in the leading paragraphs. Sorry if this wasn't obvious, I guess.

>…all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Protestantism (and indeed, yourself later in your reply) defines "believe" as a singular act, a single moment in a person's life whereby the gift of faith is awakened and the person is therein "justified" forever by God, as opposed to it being merely the beginning of life centred on Christ, the deliberate implication of this docrine is the work is completed, as if life with Christ isn't a lifelong journey. When someone responds to the altar-call, feels emotional over our Lord, says the sinners' prayer and 'accepts Jesus into their life', and the pastor afterwards tells the man he's 'saved'; yet he goes on to never attend church again, live a life of iniquity, die and be damned to hell, we see this is a result of such false teaching. This is what I, and any other Catholic/Orthodox want to address.

>Colossians 2

not a formula of imputation, but an exhortation to the faithful.. Well, indeed it can be a formula if you take and isolate it from its contextual passages:

>2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

Contrast 'stedfastness' to the opening chapter of Galatians and see why we believe salvation can be lost.

>2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him:

Walk ye in Him, not "be declared ye in Him for having once had true faith". Now, to be fair, the reformed view is he who once had "faith" rejecting God never truly believed. And that saving faith is evidenced by good works and perseverence in faith. The thing is, Lucifer more than has faith in God, he knew Him, beheld His glory and still he turned from Him in his pride. We believe we have this ability to turn from God too.

>None of this is to say that works are discouraged, or going against any other part of Scripture already mentioned. Jesus tells us every work will be rewarded, but this necessarily comes after justification has occurred.

Yeah, and? We're in agreement. Salvation is not by works, I and every orthodox (lower case) Christian affirms that. It's by grace through faith: a faith that begets works. If someone repents in earnest on their deathbed, they'll be saved even having not done any works, but a 'Christian' who lives a long and healthy life attending church every Sunday who bears no fruit? Matthew 3:10, 7:23.

I agree with him (and you) on almost everything he said. The start and middle, just not the end. Only at the conclusion and through a nuance in certain definitions is there a disagreement, the same seemingly minor disagreement (that you've evidently not even picked up on) that basically seperates Protestantism from Catholo-Orthodoxy (the main one from which all other disagreements stem from at least).

>All of this is true, hence why it also says in Hebrews 12, "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?"

This is a beautiful verse. I simply believe however that the Bible also tells us what will happen should we not embrace and endure our Father's chastening.

To conclude: Our journey with Christ is lifelong. We believe justification/sanctification to be practically synonomous. You believe sanctification to follow one-time justification. We believe first faith marks only the beginning of one's journey with Christ, in the sense that our justification [again, synonomous with sanctification] is a process and can be ceded from in our free will. We both believe that the good exhibited in people is not their own (lest any man should boast) but God through them by the work of His grace. We as Catholics and Orthodox believe we've been saved, are being saved, and will be saved, threefold.

I being a former protestant, simply came to believe the Catholic-Orthodox view to be of a more full view of what Scripture says in its totality.

To quote from the story of St. Joan of Arc:

>Accuser: “Do you know whether or not you are in God's grace?"

>Joan: "If I am not, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me.”

This to me, speaks profoundly of the virtue of humility, which God's grace, we are all in need of.

>>853912

>the deliberate implication of this docrine is the work is completed,

Yes because as the Lord said while on the cross, "It is finished." This work and righteousness becomes the righteousness of God (as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:21, "that we might be made the righteousness of God in him") which is imputed to those that believe.

I don't see the point in arguing over whether believing is a single moment or a lifetime, because of the fact we know that God is the one behind it. As it says in Philippians 1:6, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

So then our confidence is not in our ability, it is in God who began a good work and will carry it to completion (see 1 John 5:13 KJV). As it says in Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

So you see from this that only those who were ordained to eternal life believed. If they were and are already "ordained to eternal life" then the power rests on God.

As it says also in Ephesians 1:10-12,

"10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

And also in 1 Peter 1:5.

"To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

>yet he goes on to never attend church again, live a life of iniquity, die and be damned to hell, we see this is a result of such false teaching.

Yet it says in 1 John 2:19 that "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

>Contrast 'stedfastness' to the opening chapter of Galatians and see why we believe salvation can be lost.

St. Paul in Philippians 2 says the following,

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

So then if it is God working in those who are saved, we know that it is stedfast. But if it is only men trying to merit themselves without accepting that, then it is not stedfast. The word of the Lord says in the Psalms, "It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man."

>We believe we have this ability to turn from God too.

Up until the glorious day that we are saved this is true. As it says in 2 Peter that many have "denied the Lord that bought them."

>the same seemingly minor disagreement (that you've evidently not even picked up on) that basically seperates Protestantism from Catholo-Orthodoxy

We are individuals, so whatever difference you are thinking of does not necessarily have to exist. I fully believe that sectarian churches have political reasons for disagreeing more than anything. One should place their faith in the inspired word as the final authority for faith and practice. The inspired word is that which God spoke unto us by his Son, as it says in Hebrews chapter 1 and verses 1 and 2.

>and can be ceded from in our free will.

Once someone is saved and their name is written in heaven, they are not prone to being lost any longer. As Christ Jesus says John 5:24, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

>>853914

Having read your comment, you seem to have missed most of what I was laying out. Most of your comment is arguing for why it is God, not man, who does good works, yet that point, as I thought I made abundantly clear in my other comment (but obviously not clear enough), is what I and the Catholic Church too completely believes/professes. I believe it is God alone who works through his followers, to His, not their credit. So much of your reply is typed out in vain. Please re-examine what it was that I said/was trying to say.

>I don't see the point in arguing over whether believing is a single moment or a lifetime,

Please think thoroughly over this. It really is the crux of the matter at hand. It's certainly what I've spent all effort in trying to argue over. Because the stance one takes on this could drastically change how they approach their relationship with God -for the rest of their life. However,

>because of the fact we know that God is the one behind it.

That's a valid point. In the grander scheme of things, arguing over this achieves virtually nothing. We should just simply trust in God. That said, I do consider these debates a good way to practice scriptural exegesis, anything that gets one to read their Bible in an earnest search for truth is surely a good thing.

>>We believe we have this ability to turn from God too.

>Up until the glorious day that we are saved this is true. As it says in 2 Peter that many have "denied the Lord that bought them."

What more proof do you need that salvation is an ongoing process throughout our lives that can be actively resisted, potentially lost? (I want to make the minor not to onlookers that this view of the Catholic faith is not semi-Pelagian in that we attribute the first gift of faith solely to the work of God, and all other works that flow forth from.)

Phillipians 2:12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

>>I fully believe that sectarian churches have political reasons for disagreeing more than anything.

The united first millenium church and the heresies they fought disagree.

>>853807

Romans 3:20 KJV

>Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

No flesh will ever be justified by the deeds of the law. If you think obeying the law will save you, then you will never enter the kingdom of God. Repent, and believe the gospel of grace, or suffer the wrath of God due to your filthy rags.

>>853806

The key word is "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God". Since I am righteous (Romans 4:5, 6:18, 9:30 KJV), I will certainly inherit the kingdom of God, regardless of any sins of the flesh I happen to commit. I am dead, and my life is hid with Christ (Colossians 3:3 KJV). God does not see my sins any longer, instead he sees Christ in me. If Christ can send me to hell then he must also send himself to hell, but this is impossible, as he cannot deny himself (2 Timothy 2:13 KJV).

Romans 6:14 KJV

>For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 4:15 KJV

>because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13 KJV

>(for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

>>853920

>Phillipians 2:12

It says "beloved". The beloved means that they are accepted in Christ, who is the beloved (Mark 1:11; Ephesians 1:6 KJV). That means Christ cannot deny them salvation (2 Timothy 2:13 KJV). It also says to "work out" not "work for" your salvation. It is like a muscle; you work it out and it becomes stronger. Your life in Christ becomes greater and greater the more you gain sound doctrine in the inner man. It is referring to the sanctification process. Salvation from hell is already covered and finished by Romans 5 KJV.

The Gospel of the Grace of God which saves lost mankind is: "Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose again the third day" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). The Lord Jesus Christ shed His sinless blood to forgive us our sins, but the Bible declares that anyone who rejects the Gospel of Grace will have to pay for his or her sins in the lake of fire for all eternity. Once you trust in that alone, you are sealed unto the day of redemption, guaranteeing your salvation, without fail (Ephesians 1:12-14, 4:30 KJV).

>>853787

This

>>853940

(cont'd)

>It really is the crux of the matter at hand.

Well, like I said in referencing 1 John 2:19, if they go out from us it is only to make manifest that they never were of us. So the problem which you refer has a clear Scriptural answer. It has a Biblical answer here, which does not introduce doubt into the equation for the believer simply because God is the one being relied upon. As it says in 2 Thessalonians 2, "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".

As it says in Philippians 2:13, it is God which works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. And as Peter wrote in his epistle, God has "begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Also as the apostle John wrote, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Finally, as Paul wrote in Philippians 1:6, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:"

So then if God has started a good work at one point then He is as good to perform it until the day of Jesus Christ no matter what, each individual who has indeed had that happen can be sure of it. The point remains that. Consider what is written in Scripture here. And this is the "trust in God" that the saved believer possesses - The shield of faith with which they can quench all the fiery darts of the devil. All the people who hurl doubts get stopped by that shield.

It's not faith in man but faith in God.

It all goes down to the pure truth that God cannot lie, due to His perfect nature and His divinity, as it says in Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 6:18-19.

>>853930

>Since I am righteous…

Anon, see 1 Tim. 1:15 on this. Also, how were you able to post on here? I have been trying to post here for the past day and it has been bugging out for almost 24 hours now.

>>853941

>Anon, see 1 Tim. 1:15 on this.

Yes, I was made righteous by God and not by any works on my part (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV).

>Also, how were you able to post on here? I have been trying to post here for the past day and it has been bugging out for almost 24 hours now.

The board seemed to have temporarily shut down for a couple days.