a38301 No.853019
>Thou shalt not murder
"Murder" is a legal term. It's a homicide done in defiance of the law.Not all killing qualifies as murder. The execution of a criminal by the state, a killing done in self defense, or a killing while a soldier on a battlefield are not murder.
When God prohibited murder, he didn't prohibit all killings, like killing to protect God's people (David and Goliath).
Christians are prohibited from killing in defiance of God's law, But if we were prohibited from any killing then David never would have slain goliath.
This brings me to my point- Don't cower in fear, slay Goliath.
____________________________
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4c7528 No.853021
There is such a thing as a just war.
Also, the state has a right to capital punishment.
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10b358 No.853022
>>853019
>Not all killing qualifies as murder.
Correct
Christians who disagree are called pacifists and subscribe to the doctrine of nonresistance.
>>853021
>state has a right to capital punishment
False. The noahic covenant precedes the existence of the state. The new testament came 1000 years before the modern conception of the state for that matter.
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470694 No.853027
>>853019
Let me guess, you wanna promote extrajudiciary preventive/retributionary killings, and dont know how to justify them?
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000000 No.853031
Simon Peter's swing at the Roman soldier (John 18:10) is an interesting topic to guide our meditation, as is Ephesians 6. Christians may certainly engage in legitimate violence, but it effective? Isn't it just too dangerous, spiritually? I'm definitely not a pacifist, but this scene loosens my grip. And if I should draw arms, I fear that the Enemy will lead me into the mortal sin of wrath, to which I have lost my father and other people I cared for so deeply. I have learned this through great pain, friends: wrath is dangerous because, unlike other sins, it promises not pleasures, but a deranged vision of justice. Yet, from longing to justice to lusting for blood is but a tiny step, one the soul seldom has the grace to repent for. Wrath is Satan's attempt to corrupt some of our most brave and holy brethren, for whom I pray constantly.
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301fb7 No.853038
Well
The ten commandments are in Exodus, and the Old testament is not the teachings of Jesus
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10b358 No.853047
>>853038
All scripture is God breathed
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4c7528 No.853048
>>853022
So, in your Bible there are no passages about putting witches and sodomites to death.
Are you a protestant, by chance?
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10b358 No.853052
>>853048
When did I say that?
I'm observing that the role of executions is not tasked to the state. Romans 13 is often misread as prescribing this, but Paul was actually just observing the contemporary justice system
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05e9b6 No.853059
>>853022
>False. The noahic covenant precedes the existence of the state. The new testament came 1000 years before the modern conception of the state for that matter.
The State is nothing more than a gigantic tribe and the tribe has existed since Adam and Eve.
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4c7528 No.853063
>>853052
Who knows what Protestants believe. There is no protestant belief, and trying to argue with one is like trying to grab smoke.
>>853059
Can Christians kill or not? Is there such a thing as a Just War?
Catholics believe that there is such a power and that there are just wars.
Protestants don't have a common belief other than a dislike of Catholics. I'd be interested to hear which denominations of their 2000 different beliefs held what.
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10b358 No.853064
>>853059
>The State is nothing more than a gigantic tribe
Why do you say that?
>>853063
Are you trying to argue with me? You're not making any sense. You misrepresented me and now you're trying to make it my fault that you made an assumption. Why not just engage with what I'm saying, that's the whole point of imageboards.
It was a medieval Catholic council that outlawed the execution of witches by the way.
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4bc4b2 No.853066
>>853063
>Catholics believe that there is such a power and that there are just wars.
I've heard otherwise from the same.
>Protestants don't have a common belief other than a dislike of Catholics.
So if I don't dislike people simply for being Catholic where does that put me?
>Can Christians kill or not?
Well John the Baptist said to the soldiers that they should "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." That's from Luke 3:14. So it seems like it was a legitimate occupation, as long as they were not abusing the position.
In other words, he didn't tell them to become absolute pacifists, just not to do violence or accuse falsely.
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10b358 No.853071
>>853070
Yes, and that someone is not the state. Man has general obligation to perform executions on murderers.
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000000 No.853077
>>853066
>I've heard otherwise from the same.
I hope you're Catholic source isn't a heretic. Capital punishment by the state, done justly and without malice, has been a Catholic belief since 1208 with the Eius exemplo of Pope Innocent III
>So if I don't dislike people simply for being Catholic where does that put me?
Okay, a "dislike of the Catholic faith and a tendency to wrongly state the Catholic faith out of malice or from being fed false representations of the faith by other protestants for nefarious reasons".
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10b358 No.853083
>>853080
Yeah mostly, but vigilante implies illegitimate. I reject the idea that the state has monopoly on force, and my proof is that the instruction to execute predates the modern state by thousands of years, and even the organization of ancient israel.
This should not be done in rushed biased kangaroo courts but my point is that legitimacy doesn't come from a stamp by the government
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05e9b6 No.853086
>>853064
Why wouldn't they be? They both have the same function. Tribes developed because of man's need to stick together to survive, the state is just that taken to a logical extreme.
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10b358 No.853087
>>853086
That is not a proof
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05e9b6 No.853092
>>853087
Let me try again then. "The State", as I think of it (meaning, any kind of standing government that enforces law and order) is just an expression of social hierarchy. Hierarchy has existed since Adam and Eve, therefore when God said "Sodomites shall be put to death", he gave full permission to rulers of all kinds to enforce such laws.
Another question, why is it okay for individuals to enforce God's Laws but not for a standing government?
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10b358 No.853093
>>853092
You're supposing that the second party (the state) is an outgrowth of the first (the tribe) because it currently occupies the first's role. This is a reasonable assumption but not necessarily true, like how white Mississippians have all but displaced the indigenous amerindians. The state has likewise displaced the tribal leadership and the right to rule did not transfer. Might makes right is a pagan doctrine.
The government should merely be thought of as those who govern. Your working definition of the state is insufficient because the state is an illegitimate mob.
Rothbard's quick definition:
>the State is that organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by coercion.
Tribal government was valid because the tribe as a literal family had hereditary right to govern. This is consistent with what we can read about the tribes of ancient Israel. Churches have rights to govern because each member submits to each other voluntarily, and in good churches by express signed covenants for each member.
Hierarchy is good and so is order. What there ought to be is a hierarchy which is not based on false pretenses. When the state exercises the legitimate custodial task of executing murderers it is propping up it's false claim to authority.
The various state rulers of the world are at unprecedented levels of godlessness and even celebrate murder. That should be enough for any thinking christian to reject their implicit authority.
When God said "(sodomites) they shall surely be put to death" he didn't task it for the levites or to Aaron. Verse one says "you shall also say to the sons of Israel". There was a corporate obligation for sodomites to be killed just like there is a corporate obligation for the saints to feed the hungry.
So in conclusion, there is no moral theological issue with bombing abortion clinics in minecraft. This would still be a terrible thing to do for the risk of bystanders, your own persecution, and optics.
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10b358 No.853112
>>853110
I would support a viable revolution that minimizes death. More ideal is the peaceful dissolution of the united states into it's component parts.
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05e9b6 No.853134
>>853093
>Tribal government was valid because the tribe as a literal family had hereditary right to govern.
I don't see why that would give them a 'right to govern', but I will concede this point so I can ask my next question. Would a monarchy fall under the category of 'state' or 'tribe' in your opinion?
>The various state rulers of the world are at unprecedented levels of godlessness and even celebrate murder. That should be enough for any thinking christian to reject their implicit authority.
>So in conclusion, there is no moral theological issue with bombing abortion clinics in minecraft. This would still be a terrible thing to do for the risk of bystanders, your own persecution, and optics.
These things we can both agree on.
I agree that might does not make right and I never meant to imply that it did, however might gets results and so I find it most desirable to have a state government that enforces Christian law because state government tend to be the best at committing violence both justified and unjustified. The problem I find with smaller more loose governments like that of the tribe is that they are too easily destroyed and conquered by more unified systems of government.
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10b358 No.853135
>>853134
No. monarchies typically established their rule by subjugation after they expanded past the size of local chieftains
>The problem I find with smaller more loose governments like that of the tribe is that they are too easily destroyed and conquered by more unified systems of government.
Like who?
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d4c37c No.853189
>>853022
Doesn't Revelation mention a war several times? You should read The Bible or at least look these things up before you come on here, man.
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c45d39 No.853190
>>853189
It was a spiritual war I thought. They do the military census but when Paul looks it's the mortally wounded lamb of God. I mean all hell breaks loose and we get the whole heart-hardening plague stuff but the core message I took away was that it was through sacrifice and love that we win and God rewards us with eternal life, while those who give in when times get tough get hell.
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05e9b6 No.853191
>>853135
>No. monarchies typically established their rule by subjugation after they expanded past the size of local chieftains
If 'subjugation' is the determining factor, no government anywhere and especially not even the united states has legitimate rule.
>Like who?
Like the native americans when they were conquered by europeans.
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10b358 No.853193
>>853191
Both accurate generally. The US and most states are immoral.
>>853189
How do you think you're correcting me?
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b42fe3 No.853268
>>853093
>Rothbard's quick definition:
>
>>the State is that organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by coercion.
>quotes a jew
>expects people to listen to him
pick one.
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10b358 No.853271
>>853268
Not an argument
When a muslim observes the sky is blue do you balk?
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694967 No.853285
>>853063
>I'd be interested to hear which denominations of their 2000 different beliefs held what.
Ultimately the same as the Catholics
>>853063
>I'd be interested to hear which denominations of their 2000 different beliefs held what.
And Catholicm only has two religions, the religion of the laity (the catholic churches opinion on Christianity) and the religion of the clergy- babylonian occultism. Your religion may not be that bad, but it's the religion of the pope that's alarming.
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694967 No.853286
>>853271
The Jews constantly undermine state power in goyim nations. That's where your "State monopoly on violence" comes from. "The state is mean, the state is evil goyim!".
Remember that's an opinion of a social scientist, not a mathematically or scientifically valid theory, just an opinion. Our problem as a society now is that we are taking the opinions of social scientists as concrete reality when it's all just politically motivated propaganda of satanists
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10b358 No.853287
>>853286
Again not an argument
Rothbard from a historical and economic point of view attacked the notion of the state from an agnostic, american libertarian anarchist perspective. The subversive big kikes have exactly the opposite position and control you from the top down. ZOG.
Take your screeching to the stormfront forums if you literally cannot tolerate any topic touched by jews.
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470694 No.853291
>>853286
>That's where your "State monopoly on violence" comes from. "The state is mean, the state is evil goyim!".
You realize state monopoly on violence is seen as a positive term in political science, right?
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4ab7b1 No.853292
>>853268
>>quotes a jew
>>expects people to listen to him
>pick one.
Jesus was a Jew.
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80dbce No.853340
>Luke 22:36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
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789220 No.854172
>>853038
are you catholic by any chance?
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4c7528 No.854187
>>854172
You're really stuck in hate and ad hom mode, aren't you? Trying to turn every argument into a personal attack.
Catholic position is that Jesus Christ is the word of God (and he's not a King James Bible) and has always existed even before time. One eternal and Triune God.
Saying Christ didn't exist before his birth as a man is not a Catholic belief.
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789220 No.854188
>>854187
lol i made one post in this thread, didn't mention kjv, and you seem to be agreeing with my implied statement that only catholics think the old testament isn't the Word of God.
of course, many belonging to the orthodox church and protestant churches believe that too.
you're jumping at shadows bro.
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