23ee36 No.838068
1 Corinthians 11:1-16
This passage is incredibly controversial for many Christians. From what I’ve seen so far. The people that rely on logic are not as susceptible to its controversies, in fact they are practically immune to the misunderstanding. The people that take the Bible as inerrant, have a struggle and can still accept the truth but it takes some convincing. The people that never understand it are hopeless, since life/nature clears up the misunderstanding. This is one of those scriptures where context is everything. The rest of the chapter after scripture 16 is important as well and it shows the divide that can come from this as well as any other time you don’t allow logic to tell you the obvious, the “obvious” I said.
Keep in mind that every hair on our bodies have a limit to how long they can grow before they fall out, except the hairs on our heads, for men their beards as well. Also, Keep in mind Jesus had long hair.
And if anyone is going to give that classic “Steven Anderson” argument that only fags keep long hair, then your only showing how stupid you are.
Ok let’s wrestle.
____________________________
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c3689e No.838077
What weird nonsense are babbling on about?
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23ee36 No.838079
>>838077
There are denominations that say a man cannot have long hair.
There are denominations that say a woman should keep her head covered with a veil or clothe when they pray.
There are denominations that say “Jesus hair was short because it couldn’t have been long if Paul said this”.
There are denominations that say it’s not natural for a man to have long hair when it’s found in nature in several places.
Mainly the JW’s, but there are others as well. In fact, many Baptist’s as well, when they see a Christian man with long hair they assume he’s not spiritually sound. I’ve also never seen a Mormon male with long hair.
Are you not aware of this as a Christian?
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c3689e No.838080
>>838079
>There are denominations that say a man cannot have long hair.
>There are denominations that say a woman should keep her head covered with a veil or clothe when they pray.
>There are denominations that say it’s not natural for a man to have long hair
Yes and that would also be what the scripture you cited says. Do you accept or reject the wisdom of God?
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23ee36 No.838085
>>838080
The wisdom of God created the animals we see around us. The males at times have longer hair/plumage than the females. Make direct statements. So we can see if you reject the wisdom of God. Take a direct side so this conversation can begin. Use your own words. How many times have you cut your hair since your birth? Are you not modifying God’s wisdom? Not that I judge you. But you seem to judge me for just noticing this natural thing.
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23ee36 No.838086
>>838080
> Yes and that would also be what the scripture you cited says. Do you accept or reject the wisdom of God?
That’s my point the scriptures do not site this. Paul was merely stating the arguments both sides had that caused their division. He was not telling the congregation how things should be. He was telling them to use their logic about the matter. Then he clarified it all by saying Christians are under no such traditions. to keep long hair or short, to cover their heads or not, it was all lies and he was trying to explain to them that there are no such laws at all for a Christian. You need to give me a little more credit than that. If this was cut and dry I wouldn’t be bringing it up.
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3ccbe9 No.838095
I think Jesus would be rather upset that you care so much about vanity in the first place, instead of feeding the poor and preaching love.
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23ee36 No.838098
>>838095
I do not care about vanities. People always change their styles anyway. You are assuming too much.
I care for those that have been excommunicated for a simple temporary hairstyle though. I care about denominations forcing their interpretations on people and judging them and convincing others to judge them as well. I care mostly about the laws of God being twisted and perverted in order to weaponize and act out against innocent people who simply want to look a certain way, although it be vanity. It’s not a piercing or a tattoo I’m talking about. Hair is meant for decoration as one sees fit, hence it’s unlimited growth, and all go through several styles of it throughout life. If God had a problem with this He would’ve simply not made it that way. Vanities come and go but the damage these denominations do to people due to their leaders’ power trips are forever.
Jesus didn’t seem to care about his long hair. Neither did He ever mention it. And you seem to have already pulled out your “Jesus” card For your very first reply. It’s because I covered all the angles already, didn’t I? The nature angle. The fact that all our hairs, when uncut, grow wildly. The fact that Jesus has long hair. Etc…
And if your gonna ask me, “what’s more important, being in a church or keeping a certain hairstyle?” Your really asking me, “Are you ready to loose your friends and spiritual family over hair?” That’s the point isn’t it? No reasoning. A gun to my head. Who will pick the hair over their friends? No one. But for freedom to be who God innocently allows me to be, for that, I will sacrifice all my friendships. It’s not about the hair. It’s about not being a slave to men and being a slave to God. If God wants me bald, then bald it is! But He gave us all a choice, which we change throughout life anyway.
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3ccbe9 No.838099
>>838098
Yea, I agree with you on much of what you said. I too care for those who feel pain in life. As for what is more important, church or hairstyle.. Well, I personally have never attended any establishment church, not even once - nor do I care to attend one. Yet, I know more of what Jesus said than many who do currently attend them. Why? Because I seek the truth, I find it in the word of our Creator alone. I call no man on earth my Father.
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23ee36 No.838100
>>838099
Then accept whatever is truth about any subject you come across on your journey. Here that subject is hair. The truth about hair is that there is no law put on it, it is completely up to the person and no one can judge their souls for how they groom the hairs on their head. You can judge them for having bad taste, but not for having weak spirituality. Accept how in this passage the Bible has been misinterpreted. Accept that Paul is contradicting himself if he is actually saying what many people believe he’s saying. Accept that animals in nature teach us God’s personality in how they are created and groomed by God Himself. By doing so you can move on to find the truth about other things, this is just one truth about one minor topic.
The category of “Truth” has many branches and they all complement each other and bear fruits. God’s Truth and God’s Logic and God’s Works are all the same. They compliment each other and never contradict. It’s peoples interpretations of the Bible that contradict God’s works. And when you contradict man’s interpretation’s they default on accusing you of contradicting God.
By meditating on God’s laws and truth’s and works in nature, you can understand God’s personality much quicker and find peace. There is never a contradiction with God. Always suspect men when you feel a contradiction, never The Father in Heaven.
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3ccbe9 No.838101
>>838100
Right, your hair is your hair. You were created with it. Have fun. Case closed.
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7e64ad No.838118
>>838068
>Ok let’s wrestle.
Gross
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23ee36 No.838119
>>838118
Lol. It’s the same “wrestle” as in “wrestling with principalities”. ROTFLOL!
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c3689e No.838120
>>838085
>The wisdom of God created the animals we see around us
We are not beasts
>>838086
>Paul was merely stating the arguments both sides had that caused their division. He was not telling the congregation how things should be
Maybe you should re-read it. He only presents one position, and he does so rather imperatively.
>Then he clarified it all by saying Christians are under no such traditions. to keep long hair or short, to cover their heads or not, it was all lies and he was trying to explain to them that there are no such laws at all for a Christian
Where did he do that?
>You need to give me a little more credit than that
No
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23ee36 No.838122
>>838120
Let’s start with him saying “a woman’s hair is her headdress”. If this is so why should a woman cover her head with a veil? Answer this first.
And it matters not if we are beasts or not. Our hairs on our heads grow unlimited. Depending on our health. Answer this second.
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23ee36 No.838125
>>838120
Well? Why is it shamefully for a woman to pray unveiled yet later on Paul says a woman’s hair is her veil? Paul seems to be contradicting himself, no?
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23ee36 No.838126
>>838120
Paul also is incorrect about nature showing that a man shouldn’t have long hair. He says nature, that is the beasts and variously differing animals. God created us too did He not? Well? Why did He do this then? And why are there no laws, even in OT about keeping your hair short if you are a male? Paul is incredibly incorrect because nature has various examples of males with longer hair/plumage. Maybe you don’t believe Jesus had long hair, so I’ll leave that out for you. But many prophets that lived in the wilderness had long hair, like “wild men”. Paul seems to be loosing his edge in this chapter, or this chapter is heavily molested by translation.
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23ee36 No.838129
You know the more I read this chapter the more I feel like Paul’s imperfections and his prejudices toward women become obvious. Don’t get me wrong, I hate feminism and believe women should know their place. But Paul is clearly falling on his face several times and sounding like a bumbling fool. He says in scripture 13 to “judge for ourselves is it comely that a woman pray onto God uncovered?” What?! Why wouldn’t it be? Her hair is her headdress! Did God not make the woman with her praying in mind?! God never overlooks anything. This is one of those classic moments where you need to either accept the Bible is manipulated or accept Paul was also imperfect and his imperfections would get in the way of hearing The Holy Spirit’s voice.
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c3689e No.838135
>>838122
>If this is so why should a woman cover her head with a veil?
Because she is made in the image of man, not of God.
>And it matters not if we are beasts or not
It does because what is natural for beasts may not be what is natural for man
>>838125
No. He says if she does not need a covering, she should shave her long hair, namely because it is her covering. His words should be understood like this: “if a woman did not have cause to cover her head, then she should not have long hair since it is appointed to her as covering, yet women do not cut their hair short like a man’s because we know this is wrong since she is in the shameful image of man”. He is not saying she should put on a veil in addition to her long hair, he is saying that she should cover her head and this is why her hair should be long, which is I will remind you his conclusion at the end of the passage: “But if a woman has long hair, it is her glory, for her hair is given to her for a covering.”
>>838126
>Paul also is incorrect
Do you call yourself a Christian, sir?
>He says nature, that is the beasts and variously differing animals.
No it is not. This is not what nature means in the context of Christian theology. Paul is not saying long-haired men is not something that happens on its own, or that males with long hair do not occur somewhere in nature, that is a strawman. In general, the term nature essentially means the world as God made it, and what God intended the world to be. This is why homosexuality is called unnatural, not because it does not occur in nature, but because it violates the divine purpose of creation. I do not know why you felt the need to define the word nature for Paul at this passage in particular, since Paul himself defines what he means by nature itself teaching them; nature itself teaches us that a man should have short hair, and women long hair, because man was created in the image of God and therefore ought to show off the glory of that image, while woman was made in the image of man who fell and therefore ought to hide the shame of that image.
>And why are there no laws, even in OT about keeping your hair short if you are a male?
It is prohibited under the crossdressing law.
>Paul is incredibly incorrect
This is the word of God, sir
>Maybe you don’t believe Jesus had long hair
The bible does not tell us anything about the length of Christ’s hair which is why any speculation of it is worthless. If Jesus did have “long hair”, it was not so long as to be a veil i.e. extending below the neck.
>Paul seems to be loosing his edge in this chapter, or this chapter is heavily molested by translation.
Or you are wrong
>>838129
>Her hair is her headdress!
Right, meaning that it is covered when it is long. Is it your intention to argue that it is acceptable for women to wear dyke hair?
>This is one of those classic moments where you need to either accept the Bible is manipulated or accept Paul was also imperfect and his imperfections would get in the way of hearing The Holy Spirit’s voice.
Or you could just be wrong.
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3ccbe9 No.838138
>>838135
Wow, for something called Christianity, you would think people would get to the Christ talk more often.
He didn't really say much that would cause this much confusion. Makes you think, thats for sure.
Wow.
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23ee36 No.838141
>>838135
>Because she is made in the image of man, not of God.
Then why are men not supposed to cover their heads since their head is Christ, not God? Women’s head was man, man’s head was Christ, Christ’s was God. It’s not like Men are perfect either, and they are praying to God not Christ. Paul is showing an unfair prejudice. He is using an argument that has nothing to do with worship. He is using an argument with poor excuses to push a personal agenda. Women were prophesying back then too and more. Paul seems to be alone in his beliefs of women compared to his counterparts.
> It does because what is natural for beasts may not be what is natural for man
Your missing the point because God made us as well as beasts. Paul asked about nature, Paul brought beasts into the topic.
> No. He says if she does not need a covering, she should shave her long hair, namely because it is her covering. His words should be understood like this: “if a woman did not have cause to cover her head, then she should not have long hair since it is appointed to her as covering, yet women do not cut their hair short like a man’s because we know this is wrong since she is in the shameful image of man”. He is not saying she should put on a veil in addition to her long hair, he is saying that she should cover her head and this is why her hair should be long, which is I will remind you his conclusion at the end of the passage: “But if a woman has long hair, it is her glory, for her hair is given to her for a covering.”
Her long hair is given for a covering. What’s so impossible to understand about that. Short haired women, if anything, are unnatural. And men’s hair grows long because God made it that way, it’s not something we have control over, like our choices. You can’t compare homosexuality to long hair. One is a choice the other is just the original way God made us all.
Also, I am a Christian. The apostles where imperfect men as well. Paul himself had many imperfections and he lamented about them. Remember “woe is me”. He said that after he admitted to having imperfections.
He also judged another brother close to Barnabus and barnabus lost his temper at Paul because Paul was being a jerk by judging a man who did nothing wrong at all, Paul had been forgiven for so much and he was judging another who didn’t even have dead Christians under his belt like Paul did. Paul wasn’t a man innocent of imperfections. You as a Christian should’ve picked up on this by now.
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c3689e No.838149
>>838141
>Then why are men not supposed to cover their heads since their head is Christ, not God?
Because they are made in the image of God. Why is this so difficult for you?
>Paul is showing an unfair prejudice. He is using an argument that has nothing to do with worship. He is using an argument with poor excuses to push a personal agenda. Women were prophesying back then too and more. Paul seems to be alone in his beliefs of women compared to his counterparts.
Stop being a simp
>Your missing the point because God made us as well as beasts
Not an argument
>Paul brought beasts into the topic.
Where? Have you considered for a moment that you do not have the right to insert things into the text?
>Her long hair is given for a covering. What’s so impossible to understand about that. Short haired women, if anything, are unnatural
Are you trying to pull some bugs bunny crap trying to get me to defend your position by espousing mine?
>it’s not something we have control over
Get a haircut
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388929 No.838156
>>838141
1 Corinthians 11:1-16 clearly states that women aren't to pray with uncovered heads. Stop being a simp, Christians don't worship women they worship God
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23ee36 No.838157
>>838149
>Because they are made in the image of God. Why is this so difficult for you?
The image of God is mentioned nowhere in this chapter either. I was assuming you were talking headship. Because headship is discussed. Believe what you want to believe. The “women’s hair is her headdress part is clear, your the one that pulled mental gymnastics to explain your version. No one with a rational mind believes it the way you do. Because rationally Paul is falling on his face and I’m not afraid to say that because Paul was not a God, he was a very imperfect individual. Worship your Bible heroes if you want, I worship God. He created every hair on our heads and they grow to our liking. OT laws on cross dressing was about dresses, not long hair, many Pharisees themselves had long hair, and they were Pharisees. Get a haircut? You missed the entire point. People are being hurt because people like you take their churches interpretation and “kill” their brothers and sisters with it. Simp? You have nothing to fall back on but insults. Keep your insults and your poor understandings of scripture, they suit you well.
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23ee36 No.838158
>>838156
I covered that. Read the whole thread. Stop ignoring the scriptures you feel like.
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c3689e No.838161
>>838157
>The image of God is mentioned nowhere in this chapter either
7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God
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388929 No.838162
>>838158
No stop being a simp . This is a common trick with fake liberal Christians to distort Christian teachings. A women's head is to be covered while praying no exceptions.
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23ee36 No.838166
>>838161
My mistake. But this doesn’t change all the contradictions in this one chapter. Paul’s own words are canceling each other out. BTW your post is the first one on here and you asked what I’m babbling about. This is exactly why I started this post. Don’t you see all the contradictions? The hair is the headdress for a woman and nature doesn’t prove a man dishonorable when his hair is long. Jesus is referred to as “the lion of Judah” the male lion itself has long hair and it has nothing to do with it’s choices of mating. It just has it. Like we all just have the ability for long hair. Believe what you want to believe.
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b4dd02 No.838168
>>838125
>Well? Why is it shamefully for a woman to pray unveiled yet later on Paul says a woman’s hair is her veil? Paul seems to be contradicting himself, no?
Because there are multiple meanings to the greek word.
It has to do in part with the Greek and Roman understanding of hairs role in the reproductive system.
Dr. Heiser explains it well: https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=Fn9Q_YMSfA4
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23ee36 No.838170
>>838162
>no exceptions.
This is what proves you don’t have a mind of your own. You are told what to believe by your church leaders. You never looked at this scripture with a rational mind.
I’m not a simp. A woman has her place and it’s below the man. This has nothing to do with being a simp. I have a feeling you always default on the gestapo spirit when shown any rational arguments.
If you had a brain you would see this whole chapter fights itself, like that congregation. If you had a brain you would be able to see Paul’s Pharisee personality resurrecting itself every time he speaks about women. The same Paul that views marriage as only a means to satisfy carnal desires. Just because I defend women from time to time does not mean I’m a simp.
God certainly chose women as prophetess’ in OT. It was a woman who first saw Jesus resurrected and had an angel speak to her about it. It was a woman who Gabriel approached with good news. Putting women in their place and complimenting them are two different things. It was four daughters in the NT who would prophesy.
This headdress and long hair issue is your classic, and one of the first, Pharisee-like laws for Christianity. There is no such rule for Christians. Jesus would’ve said something if such a thing was important for worship. Never did he once say anything about long hair on a man either. And it was a whore that dried her tears when washing His feet with her hair not her headdress. If the whores hair was good enough for Jesus’ feet, it’s good enough for prayer. This personality that Paul is showing is of satan not Jesus. And since this congregation was under Paul’s direction it reflected Paul’s spirituality. Paul was trying to clean up his own mess, I’m sure he later realized he was the cause of that congregations spiritually sick state.
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23ee36 No.838173
>>838168
Nope. Now we are to talk about pubes? I’m not clicking on those links. This is a simple matter. And you guys are complicating it. The words in this chapter itself is enough coupled with examples in nature. If you need any more than that you are being controlled by your churches.
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c3689e No.838177
>>838166
>Don’t you see all the contradictions?
No.
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388929 No.838179
>>838170
Yes I am sure all those bishops, priests, nuns and monks who believe in covering a women's head when praying for 2 thousand years are wrong but you are the real Prophet sent by God. Pull your head out of your rear end and stop being damn simp. Also where does it say that the woman who washed the Lord's feet with her tears was a whore? wasn't she just sinner?
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23ee36 No.838180
>>838177
Of coarse you don’t. You didn’t even understand why I started the post when I gave enough reasons in the description. You hate me and you came into this with hate and prejudice and insults and you kept those insults going all through your posts. Sageing the entire way through it. You were blind from the start, how could you have seen anything at all?
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23ee36 No.838181
>>838179
No she was a whore. Read the accounts. And 2000 years of the same mistake because of this one imperfect man’s arrogance. Jesus came and abolished Pharisee traditions and then Paul started to set some of his own.
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c3689e No.838182
>>838157
>People are being hurt because people like you take their churches interpretation and “kill” their brothers and sisters with it
>>838180
>You hate me and you came into this with hate and prejudice and insults and you kept those insults going all through your posts
What the hell is wrong with you you weirdo? Do you have bpd or something?
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23ee36 No.838186
>>838182
No I’m just paying attention. Weirdo? More insults? Did you think I was gonna be easy? BPD? Now I have mental illness? So I’m crazy because you feel hurt? Nothing but poison coming from you. Do you feel very Christian at this point? My intentions where pure throughout this whole thread. I’m looking at your id# and getting a feel for who you are. That’s normal in a conversation on a board. I’m trying to understand you better. And I have. You like to enter threads and sound smart with a raging whisper then run away. You did this to yourself.
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c3689e No.838188
>>838186
>you feel hurt?
Nope, you’re projecting. Go talk to a therapist
Thread hidden
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23ee36 No.838191
>>838188
Now now. We all know the projecting bit. Anyone can say that and many do. I can say that about many of the things you said as well. But that’s not the point. I’m good, my therapist is God, why would I need to talk to anyone else, I’m quite happy. Thank you for your concern. Worry about yourself. Have your last word and go eat something.
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2b7609 No.838217
>>838095
Feed and love the people that want you dead.
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fc45cc No.838241
>He says nature, that is the beasts and variously differing animals. God created us too did He not?
Paul's appeal to nature does not have to do with what animals are like, but the nature of how our bodies are made and his understanding of how hair relates to that.
>>838173
>Nope. Now we are to talk about pubes? I’m not clicking on those links. This is a simple matter. And you guys are complicating it. The words in this chapter itself is enough coupled with examples in nature. If you need any more than that you are being controlled by your churches.
No, nothing to do with pubes.
You should not be so quick to claim contradictions. You can not understand that passage without understanding the beliefs of the time. I highly recommend you watch the youtube video I posted, it explains it very well.
>He says in scripture 13 to “judge for ourselves is it comely that a woman pray onto God uncovered?” What?! Why wouldn’t it be?
Because it would be obvious to the people he was writing to what he meant, because of the scientific understanding of hair at the time.
>Did God not make the woman with her praying in mind?!
God also made us with genitals but it is obvious we should cover them up in church.
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23ee36 No.838256
>>838241
Our hair is not a private part. It is not the same as genitalia. If it was then God would’ve said to always cover your hair. Both men and women if that was the case.
Customs at the time? We are not slaves to customs but slaves to God. Adam and Eve never felt naked because of their hair. Women have always shown their hair in public, unless it was not “culturally” acceptable. Again, the words are there. Along with the contradictions. “A woman’s hair is her headdress”. Head + dress, dress is the vail, naturally. And nature does not prove it’s unnatural for men to have long hair. God designed nature, “naturally” both men’s hair and women’s grow limited only to their health. You are not addressing the words provided. You are adding articles and opinions of churches in a big confusing mess, when the chapter is confusion itself. Paul mentioned “nature”, not “customs”. And if he’s mentioning customs then that means it’s not Gods opinion but man’s he’s pushing. No one cares about customs, customs change every decade. Why do you feel the need to add articles when the Bible is the only thing given and Paul is clearly contradicting nature and God. There is no other part in the Bible that says what Paul is saying here. That’s why you are using outside sources and not the Bible. The truth is always simple. You are having a hard time seeing Paul’s mistake because you are told what to believe and can’t think for yourself. Paul is showing the same imperfections that caused the entire radical Muslim world to force women to wear a hijab. There is nothing shameful about hair, all are naked in front of God anyway. And if hair was nudity for a woman then she must always be covered. You are making no sense whatsoever, the truth is much more simple then your lead to believe. Paul was simply wrong. God is right, and he never made such laws.
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d5167f No.838305
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e96121 No.838318
"Long" is relative. Ancient depictions of Jews still show shoulder length hair. "Long" to them would have been back length instead. It's definitely not telling you to look like a Roman or as some strangely think, that you must get a crew cut and look like you stepped out of a Leave It To Beaver episode. Silly goy.
Leviticus COMMANDS men to grow out parts of of their hair. Levitucus 19:27. Not Nazarites (who had to grow out all parts). This applied to EVERY MALE. Paul himself was a Jew and knew this - and most definitely practiced it. Orthodox Jews still try to practice it to this day, but follow the Mishnah's interpretation that it means specific locks (peyot) above the ears (hence, why you see rabbis with long curly sidelocks).
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23ee36 No.838330
>>838305
I read it. It’s bullish!t. If you want to know why, you can if you drink coffee or eat a burger. When I drink coffee I can smell it in my armpits. Burgers as well. My entire body.
This is just bad science used to explain away whatever one may want to. In fact if this is true then that whore who washed Jesus’ feet dried it with the semen of men. Do you have a habit of reading articles by men and believing it without reasoning?
Another bad science I can bring up as an example is, proving sodas are bad for you by placing an egg in it for months, then taking the egg out and showing people the deterioration of the egg shell. This is supposedly meant to prove that soda is bad for you to consume. That same egg, in vinegar, takes a day to deteriorate the eggshell, vinegar is healthy for you. The acids in the stomach are much more corrosive than vinegar and soda is harmless in moderation. Bad science and misleading visual aid.
This article you posted is bad science, the body absorbs anything and everything you eat into all fluids and skin as well. Eat carrots only for days straight and see how orange you get. It’s not just the hair that absorbs, and absorption is not only done by women. Of all the women I’ve been around and brushed shoulders with in crowded religious conventions, never have I smelled semen on a single head. The only reason anyone would believe this article is to find an irrational excuse to believe their church, or ignore the fact that Paul is not speaking the voice of the Holy Spirit to these congregations. I can’t believe this article is believed by some of you, it only raises more questions, as many of these anons explanations do.
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23ee36 No.838331
>>838318
I forgot about Samson, OMG! Thank you anon. “Anti-long hair on men” people have that to explain as well.
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23ee36 No.838332
>>838330
Alcohol makes the body smell like alcohol too. For both men and women. Drink some vodka, and you’ll smell like vodka in an hour, whether your a man or woman. Science can be just as misinterpreted as the Bible.
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