Ecumenism/Schism: GOC, Sedevacantists, etc.

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Ecumenism/Schism: GOC, Sedevacantists, etc. Christanon 06/18/19 (Tue) 03:15:43 70f209 No.815249

For those in apostolic faiths, what are your thoughts about "schismatic" groups that break away in opposition to ecumenism or other "modernist heresies"? I'm not employing the scare quotes in a mocking fashion, as some people here might belong to such groups and their perspective is also welcome.

I realize that there's a good deal of difference between GOC and Sedevacantists in terms of why they separated from other bodies (and you couldn't really compare either to other groups like Russian Old Believers), but they seem to be rough equivalents in each communion. Essentially, they believe that the "mainline" hierarchs have sacrificed the One True Faith for the sake of ecumenism or modernism. They believe that they alone have maintained the true faith. While they may not believe explicitly that members in other churches are going to hell, they do believe they are in grave error.

I think these groups are of special interest to anons on /christian/, mostly because they seem to offer a bastion against modernism that many believe has infiltrated their own communions.

Christanon 06/18/19 (Tue) 03:34:26 d39ed9 No.815250

As a sedevacantist one of the first things people say to me is I have to obey the pope. My problem with that is quite linked with modernist heresies - I'm suppose to follow *every* pope. So when a modern claimant breaks with tradition (and a complete 180 on a doctrine is not an "evolution"), I can do a bizarre doublethink that both are right, I can follow the current claimant and implicitly deny the past pope, or I can deny the legitimacy of the current claimant.

To me it's about loyalty to the centuries of the Catholic Church, dozens of popes and councils, or to body that has taken over the buildings for the last 50 years.

Christanon 06/18/19 (Tue) 03:41:33 70f209 No.815251

>>815250

Thanks for sharing. I can respect where you're coming from. What do you think about those who try to remain loyal to the tradition but without breaking communion?

Christanon 06/18/19 (Tue) 04:00:00 d816c7 No.815256

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One Sedevacantist argument I have a hard time refuting is the "FrankenChurch" argument. If you look at all the Popes before John XXIII (and, particularly Paul VI), they're clear in no uncertain terms that (for example, this comes directly from Leo XIII) the Church is undivided in Herself and separated from any other. Protestants (even though they have a valid Baptism), schismatics, and all matter of heretic/heathen were taught to be completely cut off and alien to the Body of Christ. With this in mind, they have totally degraded the notion of "communion" with the Church, to the point that all religions are in "imperfect" communion with the Church, meaning that these false religions are within the Church, thus it's a way of getting around EENS. And I think that while Sedes can be very uncharitable, I think that it's prudent to show them charity anyways. It's always lame when someone carelessly just responds with "Luther" or "Prot"–they are trying to understand the crisis within the Church, as many are.

Christanon 06/18/19 (Tue) 04:34:53 aa6bdd No.815264

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>>815249

I was baptized by the CMRI.

I recently went to a GOC church for Divine Liturgy.

I regret having gone to the CMRI because if there is no pope then christ failed as he said he would be with his church until the end. 60 years without a pope is disgusting. You can't have catholicism without a pope. The pope *is* catholicism: unam sanctam etc etc.

I went to the GOC under the mainline Matthewite group. Their arguments are good and all but they are really small, like, really small in numbers. It is a sect slash cult.

I think I'll just chill with the mainline Roman Catholic Church. The devil you know, etc etc.

Christanon 06/18/19 (Tue) 05:53:57 079c4f No.815271

>>815249

>While they may not believe explicitly that members in other churches are going to hell, they do believe they are in grave error

The GOC really believe that literally everyone is going to hell, especially other orthos. I don't need to say what they believe about Catholics kek. I view them as pharisses.

Christanon 06/18/19 (Tue) 06:04:18 c56536 No.815275

They are just silly, I have no idea how anyone can believe the entire Church has fallen except for their sect of 60 people.

Also this is my favorite thing on Sedes

http://www.papastronsay.com/resources/sedevacantism/index.php

>>815256

All the partial communion meme is that people who are baptized have some sort of relationship with the Church that non-baptized people don't.

It's used to confuse people quite often sure but it hardly is an even slight argument against the Church in any way. I don't know anyone serious who would say other religions are in any sort of communion with the Church though, there are probably some goofy people with some weird theology about how worshiping any monothiestic God is in some sense being in communion with the Church but it's so utterly detached from how anyone actually uses the word I don't see why anyone should even care.

Also the idea of a random lay person totally grasping the problems in the Church is the actual problem, all the authority is above us, and God knows far better then any of us. It just doesn't make sense for us to be able to grasp everything and then act on it. It's reflected in their idea they can hear some youtube video and read some old documents they don't understand then pronounce the pope isn't actually the Pope, we can't understand everything but we can understand what we ought to do and that's what God gives us.

Reminds me of this from Chesterton (the whole section on the madman in general but this line in particular)

Poetry is sane because it floats easily in an infinite sea; reason seeks to cross the infinite sea, and so make it finite. The result is mental exhaustion, like the physical exhaustion of Mr. Holbein. To accept everything is an exercise, to understand everything a strain. The poet only desires exaltation and expansion, a world to stretch himself in. The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splits.

Christanon 06/18/19 (Tue) 06:05:58 70f74f No.815276

>>815275

>some goofy people

The last three Popes dude…

Christanon 06/19/19 (Wed) 02:59:47 d364f4 No.815455

>>815250

He based