1610b5 No.812598
For the official French Catholic bible approved by the Vatican.
In french, we were used to say this famous phrase in the same way that it's done in English : "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.”
However, in the new 2013 Vatican approved french bible, it was changed to (rough translation) : "Don't let us enter in temptation, but deliver us from evil."
They explained this change by saying that it was more logical, since God can't be the author of evil and that he can't create evil. And so, they fought that it was correct to imply that God could lead people toward temptations, toward evil, when he obviously can't do evil.
So they changed it so that we ask him to not let us enter in temptation, meaning that the source of temptation comes from the outside, from Satan and his evil followers. And so God can't lead us toward temptation, but he can help us to not enter (be tempted) in temptation/sin if we ask for his help.
Anyway, I did this thread to ask you: What do you think of this change in the official french Vatican bible ? Would you see the change occur un your English Catholic bibles too ?
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5579d2 No.812602
Meh. Many English translations, both protestant and Catholic already have changed it.
https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/6-13.htm
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b407a1 No.812605
It was changed because in modern French it does not translate the meaning of the Greek anymore.
I'm Orthodox in France, we've been using "ne nous laisse pas entrer dans la tentation" for as long as I can remember.
Of course I don't need to add that the scriptures explicitly say God does not lead us to temptation.
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c58640 No.812606
>>812598
It's a complex issue involving many languages, a non-existant Aramaic voice, etc, etc. If it happens, it happens. It won't really do anything for me as I will continue to pray what I pray.
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025c1d No.812607
Is the debate over bring/lead?
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47c845 No.812610
Lead us not into temptation was always incorrect, of course it should be fixed. It isn't just logically wrong, it is literally an incorrect translation. A literal translation is "And be driven inward we not into temptation".
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1e6a56 No.812617
>>812598
>What do you think of this change
It's completely irrelevant to me, I only say traditional prayers in Latin. If you say the pater noster in a vernacular language I pretty much consider you a Protestant.
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1e6a56 No.812619
>>812610
>more literal translations are better
Is it the 12th century again? lmao
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c58640 No.812621
>>812617
TIL Jesus and the Apostles and most all Saints were Prots (I know it's a troll post)
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1e6a56 No.812622
>>812621
Hebrew and Koine Greek are sacred languages, it's cool if you want to say the pater noster in one of those. However, we're talking about modern people, not Jesus and his disciples. Vernacularism is basically synonymous with Protestantism post-16th century.
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ea86b9 No.812652
>>812622
2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all [a]with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them [b]divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language ONLY IN LATIN, but with a few exceptions for Hebrew and Greek, but certainly not every other language under heaven. The men from every other nation who couldn't speak those languages were very confused, and had no idea what the Apostles were saying, because their language was not sacred enough to be preached in. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born ONLY LATIN? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and [d]Arabs— we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God. None of them got to hear the Gospel preached in their own tongue, because it was arbitrarily decided that someone one language is more sacred than another.
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1e6a56 No.812654
>>812652
You're attacking a strawman, no-one said anything about preaching the gospel in Latin only. Preaching the gospel and telling people how to be saved is a completely different subject from prayers and liturgies.
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ea86b9 No.812664
>>812654
Ah, so we can use vernacular languages only the very first time we talk to someone about Christ, but then never again. After that, they need to learn an entirely new language if they want to pray. Poorly-educated lower-class people who hardly know the intricacies of their own language, let alone a foreign one? Better hope you're a fast learner, because God can't hear your prayers in your native tongue!
And those guys, Sts. Cyril and Methodius, who, with explicit permission from the bishops of both Rome and Constantinople, translated the Gospels, Psalms, and liturgies into the vernacular language of the Slavs? WHOOPS, guess they were protestants all along!
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1e6a56 No.812673
>>812664
>Poorly-educated lower-class people who hardly know the intricacies of their own language, let alone a foreign one?
There is zero need for anyone to understand any part of the liturgy you silly modernist.
>Sts. Cyril and Methodius, who, with explicit permission from the bishops of both Rome and Constantinople, translated the Gospels, Psalms, and liturgies into the vernacular language of the Slavs?
You know what happened to those people, right? (Hint: they don't submit to the Pope anymore).
If anything you are proving my point.
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c670a5 No.812702
>>812598
>From "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” to "Don't let us enter in temptation, but deliver us from evil."
Practically not much difference, in Dutch they literally changed the meaning from "Lead us not into temptation" to "Lead us not into trails of testing", which is actually heretical.
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952b23 No.812706
>>812673
>OH NO, PEOPLE DONT WORSHIP A GUY WITH A FUNNY HAT IN VATICAN, THIS IS AWFUL, MUH KEYYYYYYYYS!
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588f4c No.812711
>>812598
Stuff like that is why I'm switching to praying in Latin. Since French is a romance language, OP shouldn't have too much trouble adapting to it.
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b8c006 No.812718
>>812610
Would it be more accurate then to say "And let us not be driven inward into temptation but deliver us from evil"?
Quite frankly, I've always had trouble with the Lords Prayer in English. In one translation its:
"Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors, and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from the evil one"
Which I think is more accurate regarding Debts/Debtors but inaccurate with Evil One, but the other is:
"And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from Evil."
Which doesn't seem as potent as Debt/Debtors but is more accurate with Evil.
A better version seems like:
"Our Father, who art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy Name. Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be Done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us (or just debt/debtors), and let us not be driven into temptation, but deliver us from evil."
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1e6991 No.812736
>>812606
Syriac translations render it similarly and reconstructions into Palestinian Aramaic also.
I'd translate more accurately as "and bring us not into trialing". "Debts" is better than "transgression". The only remaining controversy is what kind of bread, daily, for to-morrow, super-substantial etc.
Various translations of different witnesses of Lord's Prayer
https://books.google.com/books?id=tMACAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false
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72233a No.812739
>>812718
Although the abstraction of evil seems more comprehensive, it appears the traditional interpretation of at least some of the apostolic churches is that of a personification of it. Considering it's an adjective and not a noun (take a moment to think about that) I think it might be the case.
A problem I think is that evil has taken on a meaning synonymous with "wicked" or malicious/malevolent. Other languages such as Latin and Syriac don't really distinguish between bad and evil like English does. "Deliver us from the bad one" might be corny but "if thine eye be bad, thy whole body shall be full of darkness" (Mt. 6:23) might be more intuitive.
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1e6991 No.812748
There's also the verb used for forgive in Aramaic שבק shbq which has a basic sense of "leaving".
"Leave be our debts as we shall leave be our debtors?".
This verb is mentioned in Matthew 27:46 and Mark: 15:34, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"…..why hast thou forsaken (Greek: ἐγκαταλείπω) me?
ἐγκαταλείπω (egkataleípō)
From εγ- (eg-) "in"; κατα- (kata) "down"; and λείπω (leípo) "leave".
The Greek word for "forgive" would seem to be accurately serviced by a colloquial sounding "send off" or "let off", also maybe "demit" as it is in Latin.
ἀφῑημῐ (aphīēmi)
From ἀπό (apó) "from, away from" and ἵημι (híēmi) "to send, throw".
"Forgive" has been the English rendering since Ango-Saxon times though.
http://cal.huc.edu/oneentry.php?lemma=%24bq+V%20&cits=all
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%86%CE%AF%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9#Ancient_Greek
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6e32b8 No.812835
Start praying in Latin, it's our only refuge
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4ccee5 No.812863
>>812835
Careful, the boomer NO mods are gonna ban you if you keep talking like that lol.
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0903aa No.812866
>>812835
>God doesn't speak English
Oh, you.
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4ccee5 No.812867
>>812866
I don't see those words in his post.
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5579d2 No.812919
>>812718
>"And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from Evil."
>Which doesn't seem as potent as Debt/Debtors but is more accurate with Evil.
Trespass is a much better translation. Although in common speech we use trespass as exclusively meaning an unlawful property entry (a la breaking and entering), trespass really has a much broader meaning. A trespass is ANY unlawful act committed against the person or property of another. Assault and battery, for example, is a trespass. In context the context of the Lord's prayer, "trespass" is essentially no different than "sin".
conversely, Debt almost exclusively means liability on a monetary obligation.
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1eee69 No.812920
>>812919
>conversely, Debt almost exclusively means liability on a monetary obligation
Yes, we're all deeply in your debt for giving us this wisdom.
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ff3da8 No.813558
>still not "deliver us from the Evil one
Yikes. Begome Orthodox
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b8a292 No.813563
>>813558
Submit to Rome and you can abandon the errors of female deacons/divorce/contraception.
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f14d5f No.813565
>>813563
But 99% of Catholics use contraception and the Catholic Church does condone divorce, it just calls it annulment instead.
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5579d2 No.813670
>>813565
>the Catholic Church does condone divorce, it just calls it annulment instead
An annulment and a divorce are theologically very different. An annulment is an acknowledgement that no sacramental marriage had occurred. A divorce is an acknowledgement a sacramental marriage occurred, and dissolving it anyway.
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e9a52e No.813678
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feeebf No.813696
>>812598
>meaning that the source of temptation comes from the outside, from Satan and his evil followers
Wrong! Don't if anyone mentioned this already, but in the bible its clear that evil comes from the inside, people were born sinners since genesis. Now its your choice (and consequences) if you let it flourish and act upon it. So yeah, its a good change in meaning and makes sense.
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c787de No.813700
>>813565
Sinners: we all are. I’m not saying this justifies us for falling short, but at least we have a moral standard set in place. There were homosexuals in the past centuries, but the general consensus was that it was immoral and despicable; just because the Governments of many Western Countries changed their laws, doesn’t make it a lesser evil.
So the fact that many Catholics fall short of what we are expected to do speaks about our individual shortcomings in comparison to the standard of the Church.
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6e32b8 No.813759
>>812598
God brings good from evil. God is permitting this evil so we all start praying again in Latin
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96c3ad No.813860
>>813759
Unironically this. Can't change the meaning of words if the language is dead.
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8ed932 No.815468
>>812598
The new translation is more theologically and contextually accurate, but a classic is a classic, and it's the direct translation from Latin and Greek.
The liturgic prayer will remain the same for you or will it be updated?
I suppose it could change in English
By the way, in my language, we say:
"Don't let us fall in(to) temptation". Pic related, 19th century Portuguese. I don't know when exactly it came to be the mainstream Portuguese version, it was somewhere between the 16th and 18th century. I believe it's the same in Spanish.
There was also a "recent" change here from "forgive us our debts" to "forgive us our offenses just like we forgive those who have offended us"; which makes sense, but is a shallow way to get rid of a problem: the possible shallow interpretation of "debt" and the lack of a clear linguistic pointer to "sin" or "mistake" (St. Luke translates what Jesus said to "sin" for a reason: he actually knew Greek). But then we can't interpret "offense" in a shallow way. Again, a problem persists. Not that the problem is non-existent in Latin and Greek as well… But the problem is really small in any case, and it's a matter of not simply taking a word literally and shallowly.
These verses were changed here in Brazil around the SVC to be the same as in Portugal (where they were using it at least since the beginning of that century, maybe as a copy of the French version, which changed earlier). Again, I suppose it's the same in Spanish.
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8ed932 No.815471
>>815468
>I suppose it could change in English
Forgot to finish writing that part as it was a "post-script" (or abstaining from writing, as the question wasn't directed to me).
I suppose it could be changed in English, but it would be probably more likely for it to happen if as a part of a slightly bigger liturgic change. I don't even know if there are, in English, differences between the Roman Catholic version and the "mainstream version" (if there's any "national" one). The new Catholic one would replace the old mainstream one probably only in Ireland, and then I have no idea how things work there.
If there's a "classic national version", then it's more unlikely to be changed, I suppose. And I also suppose there are already discussions about the subject in the Anglosphere that are completely unknown by me.
Probably it would be better for me to have abstained from commenting on this subject. That was probably what I was going to do but forgot to delete it from the post above.
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1d9de6 No.816209
>>812711
Basatum et dominepastellum
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