/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Christ's sacrifice was for the whole of humanity.

But we can only appropriate ourselves the forgiveness that Christ has received from the Father for the world, if we receive His Holy Spirit. And for this, we must be united to Him, primarily through faith, then through baptism and chrismation, and most importantly through the Eucharist.

Christ does not forgive non-Christians, because they reject Him and His forgiveness.

>>801238

>Why Christianity if Christ died to forgive sin?

Well He said it Himself; "no-one comes to the Father except through Me" and He also enjoined us that if anyone wanted life eternal, they would have to pick up their cross and follow Him. Clearly Christ did not mean to just pay for your sins as a transaction where you don't have to put any effort in on your end.

Nice try though

>>801248

>Christ does not forgive non-Christians

Demonstrably false: Were his Roman executioners Christian? Did He still ask His Father to forgive them?

>>801249

>Christianity because “no-one comes to the Father except through Me”

This is another thing. Christianity operates on the assumption that being a Christian gets you heaven. This is understandable. But there’s nothing to say that Christ Himself didn’t choose an entirely different set of people than Christians for Heaven. Remember, it’s God’s choice, not yours.

>Clearly Christ did not mean to just pay for your sins as a transaction where you don't have to put any effort in on your end.

Lots of religions and faith put in effort to be better people.

>what is Mormonism

>>801259

>Demonstrably false: Were his Roman executioners Christian? Did He still ask His Father to forgive them?

I assumed OP was referring to the final judgment, not to the forgiveness of sins here and now. Jesus did pray for his executioners to be forgiven, and St Stephen prayed for his Jewish executioners to be forgiven as well. But forgiveness of one sin is not sufficient to permit us to never sin again and to therefore be saved at the final judgment.

On the cross, Jesus forgave His executioners for this one sin. But this forgiveness is transmitted to all the sins that were taken upon by Jesus on the cross - all our sins - if we unite ourselves to Him, so that this prayer applies to us, and not only to us at individual times when we feel like we need it, but to us for eternity.

Note that among His Roman executioners, only St Longinus became a Christian if I'm not mistaken (and Ethiopian tradition claims that Pilate and his wife became Christians later too).

>>801260

>I assumed OP was referring to the final judgment, not to the forgiveness of sins here and now

What could be the difference? Are you saying that if the Roman executioner had an aneurysm and died on the spot in the midst of that forgiveness, thereby “never sinning again,” he would be forgiven at the Last Judgment, but if after committing deicide he went home and committed adultery, he would be sentenced to Hell?

It’s absurd in a way. In essence, you are saying that at the moment of his crucifying Jesus he was at a peak of his Christian life, and the only danger for him would be falling back into apostasy, even though I’m that moment he was in no way a Christian.

The executioner didn’t “accept” Christ’s forgiveness, nor did he stop sinning. He went through with the crucifixion.

His gift is offered for everyone, but it's still up to you to reach out and take it.

>>801281

Taking of the gift means what? Becoming the kind of person that Christ no longer has to forgive? The Bible says that’s impossible.

>>801283

>Becoming the kind of person that Christ no longer has to forgive?

I'm astounded that you came to that conclusion from what the other anon posted. How?

>>801295

It’s not a conclusion, it’s a question? What does taking of the gift really mean? That’s the whole point of the thread and what it seeks to clarify.

>>801238

>For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

>many

The Gospel is very careful not to infer that Christ's sacrifice was made for the salvation of all, because not all shall receive salvation. Nobody can come to the Father except through Christ, so atheists are unquestionably damned. Even those who accept Christ are subject to damnation depending on many criteria regarding their actions on earth. The reason we are Christians are many-fold, principally because we believe that Christ is God and that there is no salvation except through the waters of baptism, but also because devotion to Christ and natural law is the only way to live a peaceful existence. You don't even need God to tell you this, Aristotle articulates as much in Nicomachean Ethics.

>>801306

>The Gospel is very careful not to infer that Christ's sacrifice was made for the salvation of all, because not all shall receive salvation

Ok so you are a Calvinist. So you ignore John 3:16.

>Nobody can come to the Father except through Christ, so atheists are unquestionably damned

>unquestionably

<Only unforgiven sin is blaspheming the Spirit, not atheism

>Even those who accept Christ are subject to damnation depending on many criteria regarding their actions on earth

What are those criteria iyo?

Finally,

>The reason we are Christian is because we believe Jesus is God

<and also because we believe in things which non-Christian philosophers believed

???

Again I ask: If Jesus forgives his non-Christian executioner then in what sense does Christianity save you ‘’per se’’?

Consider that there might be different levels of salvation.

>>801314

Why don’t you read the other posts detailing how we are to become actual followers of Christ?

When Christ says "forgive them for they know not what they do" his sacrifice is for the world, but it is not an automatic golden ticket for everyone into heaven. Christ goes into hades and defeats death itself for us, but that does not mean the unrepentant wicked will be saved. There is no contradiction here.

>>801314

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life John 3 16

>"whoever believes in him"

>the whole world

notthesamething.jpg

>>801517

What tradition are you working from?

>>801550

I never said it’s an “automatic ticket,” I’m just trying to understand theology. The culprits of deicide ARE your unrepentant wicked and Christ forgives them. What is the meaning of that verse in your estimation?

>>801553

It’s simply not the common sense reading, so just… why? What does a theology of predestination even add, anyway? Everyone already knows that God is omniscient.

>>801591

Mormonism was arbitrary. It has nothing to do with Mormonism. I might as well have substituted Buddhism. Anon >>801249 argued that salvation requires effort, and I simply countered that every religion requires effort, even atheists often actively try to be better people, therefore it’s not an answer to my question. It’s not clear, say, why Christ would prefer to save practitioners of religion X over religion Y if both are groups of sinners seeking to better themselves morally. (NB This has nothing to do with “No one comes to the Father but by me” — Christ is still God).

>>801620

The common sense reading is that salvation requires faith.

Forgiveness =\= salvation

God will forgive us but for us to be saved we must believe. We must repent. I gave you a clear cut quote.

>>801620

>if both are groups of sinners seeking to better themselves morally

Ah, I see the issue. You are confusing personal virtue with the fact of salvation. Salvation is not earned or merited by human effort, it had to be purchased by the blood of Christ Himself. Personal virtue only reflects our cooperation with the goodness of God, His grace and His love, it does not cause or generate these things.

>>801622

Which quote? And is salvation really different from forgiveness?

>>801622

>If people could fully return to God without Christ then it wasn't necessary for Him to come

I’m going to stop your right there.

No one is saying salvation is not all by and through Christ.

Internalize this, then re-read the question, which is asked on the assumption that Christ is fully God and that no one comes to the Father but by Him.

>>801630

>Salvation is not earned or merited by human effort

Does cooperation with grace not not require any effort? None? Salvation is utterly effortless? OK then, we’re back to OP. So then how does being a Christian (decidedly a difficult life, sell your possessions and carry your cross etc.) save you?

>>801238

>If Christ forgives the world then he forgives non-Christians too.

Except He doesn't, because non-Christians don't ask for forgiveness. You're right in realizing that Christians aren't actually better people than non-Christians, but you're wrong in assuming that the quality of the man has anything to do with Christ's forgiveness of him. The difference between a saint and a serial killer is that the saint at least tries to be pleasing to God, even though he'll never be able to do that of his own effort. The serial killer, however, doesn't even try to care about God's opinion of him; he wants nothing to do with God, so God has nothing to do with him.

>>801656

>Does cooperation with grace not not require any effort?

It does require some effort on your part. However, the effort you put forward isn't enough to make you actually deserve salvation.

Imagine a child cleaned his room, so his dad gave him a toy as a reward. All of the labor and money that went into actually acquiring the toy was put forth by the dad, but the dad wouldn't have given to the child without some effort on the child's part. That's how salvation through both faith and works works.

You have to ask forgiveness in order to even receive it (and acknowledge that person has the power to absolve one's sins to begin with). The invitation is indeed for all however.

That goes for all forgiveness, afaik. I've always been uneasy by those who say people are in the wrong if they don't forgive their persecutors all of the time, and try to turn the sin on victims instead. But Jesus never told us to flat out forgive anyone. He said, "If he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." - Luke 17:4. Indeed, it would be a great thing to simply forgive people by default, but one isn't in the wrong for not doing so either. Jesus told us we are obligated when the offender comes back and repents. Otherwise, you are not a sinner for praying for justice.

I imagine that the same people who speak in platitudes and brush aside everyone's pain and says "you're evil if you don't always forgive", are the same people who also think God just absolves everyone without them asking. These aren't people who realize the severity of injustice and sin. They're unthinking and actually more merciless by brushing both the rights of God and the victims of the world aside so easily.

>>801659

Correct, the second link should indeed be to >>801623.

>What’s the point of having a church in the first place if it is not for saving people?

That’s literally the question. Not understanding why Christianity saves people per se.

>>801660

>He doesn't forgive non-Christians because non-Christians don't ask for forgiveness

And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (Luke 23:33,34)

What is your interpretation of this famous passage?

>You're right in realizing that Christians aren't actually better people than non-Christians

OK

>but you're wrong in assuming that the quality of the man has anything to do with Christ's forgiveness of him

Erm, that’s precisely what I didn’t assume.

>The difference between a saint and a serial killer is that the saint at least tries to be pleasing to God

My response is simply to point out that many non-Christians “try” to be good. And when I say “good” I mean even for goodness’ own sake, i.e. not expecting anything in return, which is Godly. So what? How is that salvific?

>>801663

That analogy is a bit sneaky because it suggests a perfectly behaved child who doesn’t need forgiveness in the first place.

>>801687

That’s off-topic, but it’s certainly not unChristian to pray for justice and for righteousness. At the same time, it’s Thy will be done (referring to God the Father), not our will be done. Jesus also asks us to forgive not seven but seventy times seven times (Matthew 18:22) and to forgive everyone unconditionally privately in prayer, even the unrepentant, so that God may forgive us (Mark 11:25). Forgiveness is pretty much the cardinal virtue of Christianity. It’s impossible to be a Christian and to hold a grudge because that counts as hypocrisy.

>>801704

>That analogy is a bit sneaky because it suggests a perfectly behaved child who doesn’t need forgiveness in the first place.

There's no such thing as a perfect analogy. The important part is that the child is incapable of earning anything on his own.

>>801704

>That’s off-topic, but it’s certainly not unChristian to pray for justice and for righteousness. At the same time, it’s Thy will be done (referring to God the Father), not our will be done. Jesus also asks us to forgive not seven but seventy times seven times (Matthew 18:22) and to forgive everyone unconditionally privately in prayer, even the unrepentant, so that God may forgive us (Mark 11:25). Forgiveness is pretty much the cardinal virtue of Christianity. It’s impossible to be a Christian and to hold a grudge because that counts as hypocrisy.

That scripture I pointed out is that he said seventy-seven times when/if the offender comes to you and repents. It's conditional.

"If he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him."

The offender needs to take the first step.

It isn't that I'm saying one should hold grudges though - forgiving them on the first step is admirable and would be going above the call of duty. It's just that no one is obligated to so unless the offender repents. And my point above was that sometimes people who speak with platitudes about forgiveness only do so because they simply can't identify with the victim. They're deaf to cries of justice. It's things like this that let predators and pedophiles and rapists and cheating spouses run free or even perpetuate their crimes, while all of the pain rests on their victims.

I don't mean to be off-topic though. I'm trying to relate it to how we approach God as well. Only by approaching God and acknowledging him do we receive mercy.

Yes, Jesus asked the Father to forgive his murderers even on the cross. But not all of them were forgiven. At Pentecost, many Jews of Jerusalem realized their error only later and indeed repented. They were given the opportunity to do this, which led to that forgiveness, but not all of them took it. It would be wrong to say that all of them received the same reward, and there was no difference between the ones who repented and the ones who carried on mocking Christ while Jerusalem eventually burned.

What if someone behaves in a Christian way (follows the commandments, bulwark against fags/degeneracy/etc) but lives in a very remote area/has never heard of Christianity, would that mean in a way he has faith in Christ?

>>801314

This post is total nonsense, you clearly don't understand what is being posited.

>>801805

Hum, what? I literally didn’t even say anything in that post. The absence of statements can’t be “nonsense.”

>>801762

You seem to be distorting what I said as if it meant we should hold grudges or withholding forgiveness. Indeed, we are commanded to forgive, as many times as we are asked. Even infinitely. I'm just saying it's conditional on someone actually asking (just as God's forgiveness is conditional on our own humility to him). God hears cries of justice too. There's myriad scripture passages about that too. I mean, probably half of the psalms are about deliverance - like David being hounded in the countryside by Saul. David always made a point to never harm Saul, and even give him the benefit of the doubt when Saul appeared to be in his right mind again, but David did cry for justice many times and ask for some end to that debacle. Unfortunately, it ended with Saul's life (and didn't need to be that way, and David showed his mercy by mourning for him), but that too was an answer to prayer for David.

By ignoring victims, we get the "church" as it is sometimes today: A bunch of hippies at best, who don't work on behalf of the victims. People who don't like the "friction" a damaged person causes and just silences them. Disinterested clergy who just want to look "above it all" and say God forgives everything. Even if the offender doesn't change or ask for mercy. The entire pedophile scandal is full of this depravity, for example. Literal decades of outright ignoring justice. This isn't what God wants, and because men are too incompetent, he's decided to speed up Justice himself.

>>801868

>I'm just saying it's conditional on someone actually asking

Do our enemies ask us for forgiveness? Does Jesus ask us to pray for them anyway? Is it possible to pray for someone without first forgiving them?

>A bunch of hippies at best

I hate to break it to you but God when he incarnated and tabernacled among us took the form of a long-haired hippie. An extremely conservative and devout hippie, but with many aspects ascribed to modern hippies nonetheless.

>People who don't like the "friction" a damaged person causes and just silences them

In theory, it’s impossible for a pious a Christian to be truly “damaged” as they are regenerated and conformed to the Word through repentance, prayer, fasting, etc.

>>801883

We can pray for them. It doesn't mean you can't ask for justice. They're not incompatible. It's a matter of conditions, as I keep saying.

Jesus was not a hippy. Free love, rampant pleasure chasing, fiscal carelessness to the point of societal collapse, broken families, abortion, selfishness, etc.. No, Jesus was not a hippy.

>>801883

>In theory, it’s impossible for a pious a Christian to be truly “damaged” as they are regenerated and conformed to the Word through repentance, prayer, fasting, etc.

Like I said, many in the modern church are careless and don't care about victims. Tell a child who has been raped that it's "All good, bro!" Give them your best John Lennon impression…. or something (*shrug*). All you care about by saying things like this is looking above it all and spouting platitudes. Aim higher. And having some blanket idea of forgiveness is not high minded. Forgiveness is only great when one perceives the crime and pain that sin causes as great as well.

>>801887

I didn’t say He was a hippie, just He looked like one. That being said…

>Free love

Free gift of salvation

>rampant pleasure chasing

Maybe not rampant, but read Luke 7:36-50.

>fiscal carelessness

Matthew 6:25-34

>to the point of societal collapse

Jesus’ ministry was thoroughly apocalyptic.

>broken families

Jesus commands us to “hate” our families.

>abortion, selfishness, etc.

Obviously not.

>No, Jesus was not a hippy

It’s not 1:1, but the parallels are there and can’t be denied. Did you think Jesus was like a conservative businessman? Or perhaps a Christian in the manner of the Pope, adorned with jewels? Ha. Besides, you only said “hippie” in the sense of forgiving everyone for everything all the time, which leads to…

>Forgiveness is only great when one perceives the crime and pain that sin causes as great as well.

Of course. No one is more sensitive to the suffering of man than Christ Jesus. This is why his forgiveness is all the more remarkable.

To drive the point home, I reference another Anon: >>801879

>Love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. Love your neighbour as yourself. The two great commandments.

If you would want other people to forgive you of your sins, then you must forgive others of their sins. Only if you do this will God forgive YOU of your sins. Repentance and forgiveness go hand-in-hand. It’s a package.

>6th of the 10 Commandments: Thou shalt not kill. Jesus says that if you have hatred towards a man, it is as if you have murdered that man in your heart. Ever hated someone? Been so angry at them? As you were driving and they cut you off, maybe you, just for an instance, were filled with anger at that person?

That’s sin. Plain and simple. Please reconsider that your philosophy of forgiveness may verge on Talmudic. A helpful resource may be this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness#Abrahamic

Compare Judaism to Christianity and notice how your approach fits squarely in the Jewish category.

Christbros, I’ve reached my own conclusion: Christianity is salvific per se because only by knowing the one true God, the only God, and by cooperating with the grace of this God, is a human being able to experience true love and peace, which is to same as being saved. So it’s not a matter of “effort” so much as of participation in the only real life there is, which is life eternal in the Lord Christ Jesus. God bless.

>>801905

>It’s not 1:1, but the parallels are there and can’t be denied. Did you think Jesus was like a conservative businessman? Or perhaps a Christian in the manner of the Pope, adorned with jewels? Ha. Besides, you only said “hippie” in the sense of forgiving everyone for everything all the time, which leads to…

That hippy parallel is an American meme. Angels don't shout "Holy, Holy, Holy!" at the sight of a hippy. Prophets don't weep and say "Woe is me" and curse themselves for having been so unclean to be in the presence of a hippy. Women don't cry and anoint the feet of hippies. Same goes for "conservative businessmen". Not even a bishop creates a fraction of the impression of Holiness that Christ does - and the little they do is because of Christ as well. It's not their own holiness, but the holiness of the office Christ gave to them (and can easily take away).

Every example and image we could give would be a joke. And I think you know that. Christ is God.

Hippies don't truly espouse forgiveness. They're selfish and just dismissive. Anyone who has a serious grievance would be written off by a hippy for "disrupting their vibes". It's ultimately centered on themselves and their sense of pleasure. Not forgiveness or virtue. They only try to appear that way, but their actions are usually self indulgent and careless. For a popular example, think of Jenny in Forrest Gump. She was nothing but a vapid, self-indulgent heartbreaker, who only learned some humanity when she was ready to die.

Everyone is saved. Not just Christians. It just takes many lifetimes.

>>802022

I don’t like hippies, and I don’t think Christ is a hippie. You are the one that introduced the word, and I agree with you. But I’m not sure if we’ve converged on the same answer when it comes to forgiveness. Did you think about responding to the latter half of >>801905?

>>802039

Wrong.