/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>796768

>I've seen this kind of behaviour from lukewarms, LARProtestants, LARPOrthodox and so on

FTFY. I am not rejoicing for one and so many others also take this as an affront. Not just this case but lately there are many vandalism against churches all around. I am pretty sure the end time is coming and this is probably one of the signs for us all human to get right or get smite'd.

Friend…there are people who, no matter denomination or religion, will rejoice in other people’s suffering. Do we judge the whole of them by the awfulness of some? Even God was willing to spare Sodom if He found a handful of righteous persons in them. Plus, we should look at the beam in our eye and refrain from being this much of a “claimers of victimhood”.

I’m truly saddened by the fire, and many Protestant and Orthodox friends of mine have empathised with us. I’m not here to o ask them to begum, I’m here to say not to generalise like that. Please

>>796768

>how can then anyone calling themselves a Christian rejoice at the destruction of a place of worship meant to glorify God?

would you say that about the old Jewish temple whose destruction Jesus foretold?

>>796774

>Jewish temple

>God foretold it's destruction

>same as the event at hand in any way

Pathetic.

>>796775

That's what the OP was implying, yes. He insinuated the destruction of any place intended for the worship of God is always bad. I merely brought up a counter-point. If you think pointing this out implies I'm celebrating over this event, you're just being emotional.

>>796768

I'm not rejoicing over this, but I'm not mourning either. I feel sad for those who feel sad over it but I myself have no personal attachment to it. Simply because I do not believe Catholicism is Christianity, and I do not believe that this place of worship was meant to glorify God. I certainly do not feel like this is a "grim event of incredible proportions for all Christians", as a result. I wouldn't feel any different if it were a mosque or a Mormon temple burning down.

But I have no tolerance for anyone who rejoices over this. What is there to rejoice over? Religious people feeling deep pain because one of their most cherished religious building went down in flames? French people feeling deep pain because of their national patrimony going down in flames? Westen civilization feeling deep pain because a strong cultural and historical symbol went down in flames? What about all the money that will be spent on rebuilding it, now? There is no rejoicing to be had over random destruction and most certainly no rejoicing to be had over the suffering of others, even (especially) those you might consider your enemies. If you are not merciful and do not carry their burden with them but rather look at it and dance of joy, you are not Christian, and that is the end. This is literally the parable of the Good Samaritan - those who rejoice over this are like Jews who have no pity for the Samaritan who is suffering because the Samaritan is of another faith than them.

>>796768

Notre Dame is a symbol of Christianity in France and Europe in general. I know that they will build it again but still the symbolism is too great to ignore. Please don't pay attention to LARPers and kiddies trying to be edgy, the whole Orthodox world is standing with you irl.

>>796778

Pretty much this. Also, how about instead of mourning worldly structures so much, we give thanks that nobody was physically harmed from this? If people were rejoicing about an event that led to deaths, that would be one thing, but not particularly caring about losing great historic artworks isn't anywhere near that level of psycho.

>>796780

People are worth nothing. What the hell are you trying to say?

>>796788

Hey, easy with the edge…we are worth much not because of who we are but because of Him.

I’m agreeing with you on the need for beauty, but we should not go neither nihilism road nor materialism street here; it’s indeed a sad event, but at least most of it was saved and no one perished. We shall rebuild, and the scar will be a memento.

>>796779

Not just the Orthodox.

T. Baptist

We'll never be able to replicate the windows though. And somehow I doubt that France will even try in its current state. Maybe the next generation will have faith, though.

>>796768

Notre Dame is not their heritage, it's the heritage of Catholics alone. The schism happened 200 years before it was built and the Protestants grafted themselves out. Quit it with this retarded ecumenism, it is duplicitous.

>>796798

It's a Christian church.

You don't have to be promoting ecumenism to acknowledge that.

It's an incredible sight to see really, some Muslims have more respect for the building as a Christian church than tons of people calling themselves Christians.

The internet is not real life. I repeat, the internet is not real life. Get off your computer, go outside, go to the nearest church of a denomination that isn't yours and ask them about what happened. No one will say it was a good thing. No one will be 'rejoicing'.

>>796790

It doesn't matter if people perished or not. If people perished to save the Notre Dame that would be good.

>>796798

This. Heretics have no business a cting like they have any kind of connection to Notre Dame.

>>796807

That is not my point, but I can side with you on this. Truly a shame it was damaged.

>>796824

You and your foolish countrymen are creating a divide that will incite more violence. I do my best to respect the Orthodox faith, but people like you almost makes me lose it. Of course, not that you would care.

>>796822

Catholics were persecuted by your people as well. Clinging on to old wounds of the past makes you look weak.

>>796827

One internet tryhard does not speak for millions of Orthodox faithful. >>796779 is correct, we stand with you.

I visited Notre Dame in 2009, I stood in awe of the majesty of the place. It is a shame that such beauty is now gone from the face of the earth.

>>796830

>1995 is not the past.

It is though.

>>796831

You're right, sorry for my comment. I cannot let hate get to me on such a Holy week.

>>796830

I incited nothing, this is between your people. On your deathbed, please think about the wrath in your heart and how it's different from justice.

>>796836

And all of us converts have had exclusively negative experiences with our former denominations, yet we do not pray for their destruction. Pray for the conversion of the West, not its downfall. Pray that your heart is softened.

Furthermore, it was the English and the French, Anglicans and godless revolutionaries who stood in your way in 1853. Not the Catholics.

>>796824

Yet you'll not find any official statement by a Serbian bishop saying "Notre Dame burn in hell" or something. But i've already read a bunch of supporting messages by clergy and laymen. That's why i said irl, i know that the internet is full of bilious people.

>>796836

And you can't possibly be retarded enough to take your own Christian themed ultranationalistic aspirations seriously.

>>796840

True this, think a short break is needed from this rabble, if this man's senile ranting was all there was to Orthodoxy, the faith would've died hundreds of years ago.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/04/16/business/francois-henri-pinault-bernard-arnault-notre-dame-donation/index.html

>>796848

I'd go so far as to say whatever the cause, it is a sign from God

By coincidence this was today's reading:

But it was Solomon who built Him a house. However, the Most High does not dwell in sanctuaries made with hands, as the prophet says: 

Heaven is My throne,

and earth My footstool.

What sort of house will you build for Me?

says the Lord,

or what is My resting place?

Did not My hand make all these things?”

Acts 7:47-50

Tour guide: Welcome to Notre Dame Cathedral on the 300th anniversary of the Great Fire of 2019! The damage was repaired using oak timbers from trees planted at Versailles in the 19th Century for the cathedral, and aluminum and carbon fiber as needed for extra strength. The stained glass windows you see were cut with computer-controlled lasers.

Tourist: Despite their primitive technology they were… just like us…

500 years from now, the repairs will be as revered as the original.

>>796836

Look, I understand your frustration. Catholics have persecuted us for centuries and have never ceased to do so.

And I agree it does sting when people put us in the same basket as them, even worse when it's the Catholics doing it.

But please realize that what you're saying is not right. Forgive our enemies. Forgiving them does not mean accepting association with them, but it definitely does mean not wishing harm and violence upon them, but rather wishing conversion and repentance, and interceding to God for them.

>You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

St Stephen interceded for his aggressors when he was killed. "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." Our Lord interced for us when we killed Him. "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." Is your behavior in line with them?

And not only should you not curse the Catholics and pray that they go to Hell, but you should even carry their suffering with them in this moment.

Remember the words of St Paul:

>Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

>Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Therefore

>“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

>If he is thirsty, give him a drink;

>For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

>Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

>>796848

>It's a sign from God

A sign from God to do what? Who gets to interpret such signs and wonders? I've seen people claiming that this was a sign that means everything from "France should return to its Catholic roots" to "Catholics are proven to be damned pagans" to even one fellow claiming that it means Trump should invade France. So, who gets it right?

>>796860

It's about what the building means to the west; it's more sacred in the public imagination than the Vatican, it doesn't matter that the only reason why the fascination with it is because of Victor Hugo. The burning of it says we have all lost our roots, the Real Presence in that building is felt by even the most nominal Christians.

>>796863

>>796860

Even people who have never seen that building have a stake in it.

>>796860

Although I have good news, the rose windows are safe!

https://heavy.com/news/2019/04/notre-dame-rose-windows-fire/

>>796866

Please address what I said.

>>796768

>for it isn't just a blow to Roman Catholicism, France or Paris, but to Christianity as a whole

Unless it was a muslim or atheist that did it, I don't see how this affects non catholics.

The only people clapping are Muslims, gaytheists, and LARPagans, and should GTFO

>>796871

>The time for forgiveness is over, our kindness and tolerance was only repaid with murder.

Forgiveness does not expect repayment in kind. Forgiveness is not an exhaustible ressource.

Hence why the Lord told Peter that we should forgive, not 7 times, but 77 times.

The time of mercy will end at the final judgement, because no further intercession will be possible and we will be judged right here and there as we are. Until then, you swear allegiance to the devil by believing him when he says that there is no more forgiveness to give. It is to those who cease to forgive (or who ever forgave to begin with) that the Gehenna is for, because we ask God to "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors". If you don't forgive your debtors to the very end, you are putting a curse on yourself. If your forgiveness for your enemies is limited, God's forgiveness for you will be limited at the judgement too, but limited forgiveness is not sufficient to affect an judgement to either eternal life or eternal death.

>>796874

>>796872

>>796874

*"who -never- forgave", not "who ever forgave". Sorry.

>>796877

>One must ask for forgiveness first to receive it

And yet our Lord himself called on the Father to forgive his killers saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Do you think the crowd asked for forgiveness? No, and yet Christ still asked for their forgiveness. One does not repay death with death, violence with violence or else you become like the Jews who repaid an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

>It doesn't matter either way, God has shown us the path by burning Notre Dame

If a burning church, even one so important as Notre Dame, is a clear sign of God's wrath then I guess the Protestants are right because Orthodoxy was condemned back in 1453.

>God is with us!

Famous words of a thousand heretics, heathens, and Pharisees.

>tfw /christian/ can't even mourn the loss of a wonder of Christian Europe without devolving into sectarian shitflinging

>>796883

Yeah…on a personal level, tho, I’m glad for this has revealed how sickening the online “Christian” community has turned. Hope this is my last time visiting.

>>796877

You're hitting all the notes. Have you ever read the Bible at this point?

Romans 5:6-8:

>For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

>>796768

They're just trying to 'score' cheap points about idolatry and whatnot. And it's funny considering that the 'idols' survived pretty much intact and that the 'idols' that were on the roof were taken away for restoration weeks ago.

I think it is a sign that the Church is not going in the good direction with all this post V2 shenaningans and what the current pope is doing and saying. However, to say that this is proof that Catholicism is bad is funny.

Imagine prots converting to Catholicism every time some tornado blows off a prot church, we'd have thousands of converts.

Orthodox calling this is a divone punishment don't realize that we can just as easily say the fall of Constantinople was a punishment against the east

>>796908

>Orthodox calling this is a divone punishment don't realize that we can just as easily say the fall of Constantinople was a punishment against the east

The truth is, everyone got the shaft in that. Orthodox naturally, but also Catholic.. for inadvertently falling into falsehood by looting the Eastern libraries and making a mountain out of a molehill with Aristotle. It led to the Renaissance and onward. A self-inflicted wound where many Catholics don't even see the culprit, but blame other things. They somehow glorify him, not realizing he's the beginning of their philosophical wankery - and eventually worse. Scholasticism eventually led to Reformation which led to liberalism which eventually led to atheism. And now we have degenerates smearing crap on churches and burning down cathedrals.

>>796908

There are already Orthodox who say that 1453 was punishment so I don't see your point.

>>796768

honestly i'm a little excited from it, I want to see how the diamond heretics fit this into their end times prophecy

>>796807

>It doesn't matter if people perished or not.

what, are we /islam/ now?

>>797022

>Notre Dame burned due to the forces of nature even though it was a renovation accident

Lmao

>God uses the force of nature

Only sometimes, he still uses men as instruments of his will though. Such as when he ordered the Israelites to destroy the CaCanaanite

>>796911

>Scholasticism eventually led to Reformation which led to liberalism which eventually led to atheism.

I hear this a lot on here and whenever I ask no one responds - the chain of the layer three is clear but can someone please substantiate the claim that it was specifically scholasticism that led to the reformation? I thought it was generally ackowledged on both sides that it was the development of unbiblical dogma (in part which may have root in scholasticism, sure, but I want examples, please), excess and the corruption of the Catholic Church that led to the reformation.

>>797194

>Believing it was an accident…

>>797300

>Believing it was God…