/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>794396

I honestly think that both are required to be saved. Besides, Luther added the word “only” to that verse you are thinking of. If I’m wrong, which I easily could be, then I’d imagine that a lack of works would get you into a lesser level of heaven.

The funny thing about sola fide, is if you don't do works it is proof you have no faith, according to protestants.

Mathematically it has been described as:

>Faith = salvation + works

Which means if you take out works, you have no faith. It's literally works based salvation with more mental gymnastics.

>>794399

>>794401

Don't fall into their false dialectic. *Every* Apostolic should have no problem saying that Jesus is the only saviour and path to Heaven.

Salvation is a gift from God, not created or generated by human effort; to have faith is to trust oneself to God and His will in accordance. Works are simply evidence of this cooperation with Him, they are a sign that one is fundamentally deposed towards God.

>>794403

Don’t get me wrong I agree with you, but don’t works show that you are indeed a true Christian and not someone who claims to be one?

>>794407

Yes, faith without works is dead. Christ Himself makes a distinction between those who do works of the spirit and works of iniquity. When Christ tells us that even those who do works in His name get punished, He tells them "I -never- knew you". Never is my emphasis.

Sola Fide fundamentally re-defines what Faith means, in order to escape the "faith without works is dead" reading.

>>794396

Faith and belief are not the same thing. If believe my chair will support my weight, I have an intellectual belief as to the facts. Sitting in the chair is the act of faith. Being saved through faith means you put your faith in Christ as your savior. Putting your faith in Christ means acknowledging Him as Lord. Acknowledging Him as Lord means following his commands, which are works.

You are saved through faith, not as a result of works. Reject this sentence and you believe a false gospel.

If you have faith, God graciously (meaning: not because of your merit) forgives your sins. When your sins are forgiven, you are saved from the punishment that sin requires.

You can have good works before you are saved. You must have good works after you are saved, or it would be evident that you in fact are not saved.

Watch this video if you want the thorough protestant answer.

>>794401

The equation you presented is cotnradictory to sola fide, no inconsistency here.

>>794420

Good illustration of saving faith but you might cause confusion with the "faith vs belief" thing.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" Acts 16:31

All this quasi-legalistic redefining of words and not a single one of you even posts scripture. Not that I should be surprised, since the word of God is kind of like many of your worst nightmare as you can't sit there and redefine things to your liking.

>>794396

>so someone can do dirty deeds but as long as they 'believe' something then they are saved? It doesnt make sense.

There is this thing in the Bible called Remission of Sins, and it is so called because Jesus Christ took on our sins to himself in order that we might be saved. Without this, no amount of what we consider good works would amount to anything in light of a sin being present.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

>If you are saved shouldnt you do good works anyway?

Yes you should. The reason behind it isn't to get yourself saved though. Also, only someone who is saved is capable of being sanctified and glorified as God is behind the works in your life, not you.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

>>794409

>>794420

All you've done is redefine the word faith here. When you try to claim something means "intellectual" xyz you are in the very act of redefining.

>>794396

Both are required. Jesus said that in order to be saved you must listen to His words and act on them. The Protestant claim that works are only an automatic manifestation of faith is blatantly ridiculous, as it carries the implication that the faithful are automatons without free will, and if the good works will just get done automatically then there's no reason for Jesus to tell His followers to do them because they'll just happen either way.

It is very true that human beings are incapable of saving themselves. We cannot be saved at all except in the blood of Christ. But Christ still expects us to put forth a little effort before He saves us. We can never ever do enough good works to "outweigh" our sins, but Christ commands us to do good works and thus we must do them.

Protestants are to be admired for their love of scripture, but that's the extent of it. They don't even follow their own rule when they start preaching the other Solas. You couldn't be more clearer than James. In his example, you can't say you have faith and then treat the poor fellow next to you like dirt. It doesn't work that way. And Jesus broke it down in the simplest terms. "Love God with all of your heart, soul, strength, and mind. AND THE SECOND IS LIKE IT - love your neighbor as yourself."

The second is LIKE IT. As in, it's the same thing and you can't have one without the other.

>>794469

Acts 13:48—

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Philippians 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

>>794475

The point being God doesn't make mistakes.

>>794426

>All you've done is redefine the word faith here.

Nonsense. It is atheists who have redefined the word faith. If I say I have faith in my friends, does that mean I believe they exist or that I trust them to pull through for me?

>>794396

It doesn’t make sense for someone to do the works without believing. Therefore, the argument becomes faith alone vs works.

Faith + works is redundant, all you’re saying is “works.”

>lol I don't have to do good things because I'm already saved!

This attitude sickens me. Imagine if Jesus hadn't commanded his disciples to go out and do good in the world in his name.

"Nah, it's cool. Just sit on your ass and shitpost all day." - what Prots think Jesus said.

>>794635

Anyone who thinks they shouldn’t do good works is probably not saved by faith alone.

We are SAVED by FAITH, not by WORKS.

We SHOULD do good works because GOD WANTS us to.

Before I was saved by faith alone, I struggled with a lot of sins. After I was saved by faith alone, God helped me to overcome most of my sins.

>>794396

This argument is literally just semantics apart from the intellectually dishonest people who say you can kill 1000 people a day and still believe in Jesus and go to heaven.

Faith without works is dead, its as simple as that, the works themselves are proof of faith, but it is the faith that saves.

Saved by faith, rewarded by works. Faith alone saves you, but doing works gets you more rewards in Heaven.

>>794691

Philippians

>{2:10} That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

>{2:11} And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

>{2:12} Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

{2:13} For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

emphasis mine

James

>{2:24} Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

>{2:25} And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?

>{2:26} For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

>>794701

How do you reconcile the two? You're not suggesting that the Bible is self contradictory are you?

>>794705

I'm not suggesting the Bible is contradictory, I'm suggesting your personal interpretation of the Bible is wrong.

>>794718

You aren't providing the alternative explanation

>>794727

I think the video he embed implies that the correct interpretation of the Bible is the interpretation that has been used for almost 2000 years.

They're intertwined. If you truly believed that a bridge is stable enough to get you across, would you avoid it? Much of what is written in the Bible is about what is inside the heart. The entire sermon on the mount focuses on this saying that it is not good enough that you did not commit adultery with a woman, but that if you so much as look at her with lust, it's as if you committed adultery with her in your heart. Fundamentally, this is what both Catholics and Protestants believe, but the sheer amount of autistic rivalry muddles the water to the effect that it seems like one thinks just saying they believe is enough while the other seems to think that doing enough good things is enough.

However, one of the biggest takeaways of the NT is that works do not save BUT faith without works is empty.

In other words:

>will I go to Heaven if I do enough good things even if I don't believe in God?

No. Jesus is the Truth, the Way, and the Life, and no one is saved except through Him.

>so I can go to Heaven if I just say I believe in Jesus, but I can still live a life of sinfulness?

No. Faith without works is dead. If you truly believe that Jesus is Lord then your life should reflect that.

>>795056

Which is?

>>795186

Watch the video and all will be clear

faith based ends up being work+faith based, right?

It's a completely autistic fight based on technicalities. Literally like two spergs fighting over spelling.

The point is: faith in Jesus Christ saves. Nothing else. Works do not save. HOWEVER, if someone has true faith in Christ, then it therefore follows that they should do good works. The focus here is on what SAVES - good works do NOT save. Good works are an EFFECT of faith in Christ. While they themselves do not save, they are indicators of a saving faith. Therefore a hindu who does good works all of his life is not saved because he lacks faith in Jesus Christ. Likewise a self professed Christian who claims faith in Christ but lives in unrepentant sin will not be saved because he lacks faith in Jesus Christ, because if he did, then it would show in his life.

>>795686

>It's a completely autistic fight based on technicalities.

I dunno man, if it is then that means we're dealing with Catholics who decided to do their own thing and not put up extra requirements to be saved which is what that state church generally teaches. For instance it puts together a checklist of things such as baptism that must be done or else. And of course they vary from person to person on what happens as well, as they've conceived of alternate planes to go along with this, but the essential point remains that there exist some fixed X works including baptism are required. It's similar in that sense to some "lordship salvation" doctrinals who say you have to be able to give up certain prescriptions of sin to be saved. Of course, they are the ones deciding what those prescriptions are, even when Paul said not to judge these things according to 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 but rather to take heed if you think you stand lest you fall.

What are "Works?"

Is is something as simple as alms for the poor, or evangelizing? Intermittent fasting?

>>794396

you do just as many dirty deeds as the hypothetical person you speak of. once you break one law, you have broken all of them (James 2:10). There is nothing you can do to be considered righteous before God (Isaiah 64:6). However, we are able to see if our faith is genuine BY our works. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

On another note, God does have his intimates. He does not have favorites, but he does have those he knows well. This separates a mass murderer who confessed on his death bed, compared to a pious man who has grown close to God. Both are saved by Jesus' blood alone, but your faith can grow stronger and you can grow closer to God by ceasing sinful activities.

hope that helped bro. TLDR just read James 2

>>795047

thats a nice meme, but it doesn't align with scripture

Isaiah 64:6 "…and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"

Ephesians 2:9 "not by works, so that no man can boast"

Jerimiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

sorry but our works are no good. we do as we are commanded by God and these outward signs are just that, signs, of our strong faith.

>>794403

>Don't fall into their false dialectic.

THIS. It is by the grace of the Lord we are saved. Faith vs works is a dialectical trap from Luther, a destructive turbo autist. Of course we must have faith to reach our salvation and of course faith and the grace of God leads to acts of piety; and acts of piety are also required for us to reach salvation.

>>797209

Any action made by human will is a work, including in the mind.

The idea of having special magical knowledge that slings you into eternity, regardless of what you do in the real world…Is strangely the same thing that Gnostics taught.

I'm not saying to be Catholic either though.

>>797377

>The idea of having special magical knowledge that slings you into eternity, regardless of what you do in the real world…Is strangely the same thing that Gnostics taught.

It's also not what the reformers taught

>why not both

Because the bible says so, it doesn't say you can't do works.

>Why not both?

It's called Orthodox Christianity.

For Catholics we are saved by Grace, faith or works don't actually make any difference at all.

There is something called a state of Grace, you can enter into this through baptism, fall out by mortal sin, and reenter through confession (or if you repent because you Love God).

It's fairly simple/clear and lines up with scripture

So long as you have faith and align yourself with it you go to heaven, if you leave the faith you go to hell.

>Christ gave us tools to be born again of the water and spirit, baptism, which lets us enter the state of Grace.

If you die in a state of Grace, you go to heaven, it's that simple.

If you fall out of the state of Grace (what this means in practice is you act with such hatred of God he can no longer dwell in you, you become incompatible with him, he never rejects us, we reject him). Christ also gave us the tools to re-enter into it.

Its simple. Jesus died for us on the cross so in return we are forgiven for all of our past, present, and future sins. As long as we are remorseful of sin and we try to be close to God, we still have God in our lives. No matter what bad deed you do after that, you're still going to heaven. However, whoever does bad deeds might be corrected by God.

>>798346

That's actually what James is getting at.

The whole faith and works thing is neglecting the misunderstanding the apostles were clearing up.

Paul focused on arguing against legalism and showed that it is God, through his grace, which imparts faith to us. And this faith in the atoning work of Christ justifies us before him.

James is arguing essentially against antinomians, or those people who having received faith believe they can act anyway they want because they have faith. James is showing us that our desire towards santification is the evidence of a true faith, being shown through the works we do. Elsewhere it is shown that God has laid out the works we will do in Christ Jesus.

So yes it is faith in the sacrifice of Christ that saves alone. And it is our obedience, to desire to love God by being having our minds renewed into what his will is. The natural result of this regeneration is fruit. A dead tree has been made alive, it is being tended by God, fruit will result.