/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>792003

>Explicitly called a mystery in God's word

>"Explain it"

Enjoy embed related

>gimme gimme gimme

You sound like a nuisance child, OP.

>>792016

You want me to believe but refuse to tell what

>>792019

Literally no one understands it. It’s not a secret, we’re not refusing to tell you, it’s just that out finite minds literally cannot comprehend it. Three separate persons who are God, but one God. That’s all we know, and all we can know.

>>792019

Trying to understand the trinity is a lot like trying to count to Infinity. Once you understand that you cannot understand ,you are free to love God for what He is and what He has revealed to us.

>>792024

>>792026

These are platitudes that are exactly what is rightly frustrating OP

There are many things about the Trinity we do know, because we're informed by scripture. "Appeal to mystery" 9 times out of 10 is just laziness.

>>792040

>God the Father is inaccessible, outside of time and space he is the God of philosophers (the first mover God, who just sets it all in motion, and leaves, like deists say

That is demonstrably wrong. God the Father has appeared in Creation in the Bible. Who’s voice do you suppose it was who said “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am most pleased”?

>>792042

Oh so sue me, I forgot to add the little complexity that ruins my whole attempt to unravel a mystery that I'll never unravel before I die. ffs

>>792047

Geez, calm down. There’s no need to be upset, friend.

>>792048

I'm not upset, just a bit of sarcasm. I can't eliminate faith with existential malarky so I'm not actually mad that someone hit back against it.

>>792003

The idea is that every person has an essence which is what they essentially are. You as a person have an essentiality to you that makes you "you".

God is comprised of three persons that share a single essence. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit all share the single essence of God.

If you want precise elaborations on the meanings of person, essence read the Church Fathers its complex stuff. When people say its a mystery it means that its revealed truth that we couldn't know apart from God's revelation. Its also something we can't fully comprehend in its complete profundity/meaning, it doesn't mean we can't sketch out a philosophical definition like a muslim or Arian would try to say as a critique.

Three Persons, all essentially the same God (in essence not personhood).

>>792040

No, God the father has a physical form. He wrestled with I think it was Jacob

>Explain the trinity.

>When I say 'explain', I mean actually explain it. No analogies, no parables, no sophistry. Actually explain how it can work.

Everything that can be said about the Trinity is an analogy, a parable, etc. Even the word "Trinity" doesn't describe it. You can't describe God, Who is infinitely better than anything we can comprehend.

Therefore my answer is "no". Yes, we speak of essence, energy, and hypostases, we speak of being unbegotten, begotten, and proceeding, we speak of perichoresis and other things, but none of that answers what you want us to answer. You want us to describe God cataphatically.

>>792081

That was Jesus before we knew Him as Jesus that wrestled Jacob, not God the Father.

Remember, Moses couldn't even see God the Father's face when he ascended up the moutain

>for if anyone trys to see my face, they will surely die

Can you show that the trinity is not an inherently contradictory - as it seems to be - and therefore impossible concept?

'The set of all sets that are not members of themselves' is not a 'mystery', it's a non-existent, made up thing.

Why not just believe that jesus was a man exalted by god, not (a) god? There were plenty of christians who used to believe that, before the church of rome forced their theology on others.

>>792150

I'm Protestant.

>>792146

You don't know what christ said.

You know what a cherry-picked group (cherry-picked by the church of rome) said he said - as a greek translation no less.

>>792150

Polytheists go home

>>792155

You are confusing me with someone else. Please check my ID.

>>792156

>Believing in the Trinity makes me a polytheist

>>>/islam/

>>792158

If it's 'a mystery' how three gods are one, then you believe in three gods.

>>792160

>t. man who refuses to be educated

Really you shouldn't post here if you don't believe in the Nicene Creed, you belong to a different religion & you're not too smart.

Rome did not force trinitarianism on anyone, if you had any knowledge of history, you'd realize that Christianity was trinitarian since before the canon was fixed.

I can solve your mystery for you; you're an atheist

>>792160

They aren't three Gods, muslim.

Our God is one God! Always has always will be.

Read the Bible sometimes or better yet watch this video this anon posted

>>792011

Three persons in one entity.

>>792154

Go back to >>/x/

ATHANASIAN CREED

>Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

>Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

>And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

>Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

>For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

>But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

>Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

>The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

>The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

>The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

>And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

>As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

>So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

>And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

>So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

>And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

>So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

>And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

>For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

>So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

>The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

>The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

>The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

>So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

>And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

>But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

>So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

>He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

>Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

>For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

>God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

>Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

>Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

>Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

>One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

>One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

>For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

>Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

>He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

>From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

>At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; and shall give account of their own works.

>And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

>This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

The Trinity cannot be derived from reason alone, that is why its called a mystery rather it is of divine revelation, but it is not contrary to reason.

>>792003

read a book tigga

>>792186

Oh, but I'm both an atheist and a theist. How does that work? It's a mystery.

>>792298

Firstly, those things contradict each other, the trinity doesn't.

Secondly, show me a worm that fully comprehends what a human is and than maybe there will be a human that fully comprehends what God is.

Thirdly, what number comes just before infinity? Dont give me an abstract mathematical equation, I want a solid number. If you can't give me the answer I want, infinity doesn't exist. this is what (you) sound like

Fourthly, have you ever watched Flatland by Carl Sagan? (Embed related). Carl trys to describe how 2nd dimensional beings can comprehend a 3rd dimensional being, and how a 3rd dimensional being comprehends a 4th and so on. Now try to imagine an infinite dimensional being like God and explain that to us.

>>792248

Not to sound like a "Akchually…" type of person, but I was taught that "mystery" could also be linked to the ancient Greek root of the world "misterion" which means also "sacrament" and that there's a relationship between them and the divine.

Thus the fullness of faith has to do with the "visible signs of the invisible grace of God", as those are the Sacraments? I always felt that yes, we can't fully understand God, just to clarify I do not disagree with you that we can't fully comprehend God but can "find" Him also through reason.

>>792302

'Three separate god-beings are one god' does contradict itself, you just call it a mystery rather than a contradiction.

>what number comes just before infinity?

Infinity is not an object that can 'exist' or 'not exist'. The fact that there is no last number is the definition and the explanation for what is meant by infinity. You can't give such an explanation or definition for your polytheistic trinity.

The fact that human understanding is limited is not evidence for any supposedly complex claim.

>>792318

>no one but you is saying they are separate

>>792248

>For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

>one person

>another

>another

>>792333

God=/= Person

>>792334

It seems to be quite literally stated by this creed tho:

>>792248

>>792003

You may as well ask “How can God work at all?”

He is God. He is one, and he is three.

>>793348

You bring up a good point.

Is god even possible?

>>793492

Yes, considering the universe had a finite beginning, as validated by modern science.

>>793537

>>793539

Define god

>>792028

Dont engorge yourself with pride thinking your little human mind(even how great it is) can understand such a thing, it is an arrogance to think one can fully understand it. Not everything fits into neat little rational boxes that can be explained, dissected, and described.

>>793771

Praying for you brother. Proof that he loves is is that he has allowed us to choose to love him and follow him, or not love him and hurt others in that process. God bless :)

>>792040

You've got a weird misconception about the line of reasoning of the unmoved mover. God is the unmoved mover because He is moving and causing things to happen right now, in the present. He didn't just "set things in motion" and leave; if He had done that then nothing could be moving right now. Nothing can be actual without the constant intervention of God. Obviously, God is much more than just the unmoved mover, but this is one of the ways in which we can know that God must exist.

>>792142

>Can you show that the trinity is not an inherently contradictory - as it seems to be - and therefore impossible concept?

The concept of the trinity does not violate the law of non contradiction. By virtue of this, it is not contradictory and there is no reason to say otherwise, i.e the trinity is actually a logically possible concept. A paradox is something that looks contradictory but in actual fact is not. A mystery is like this also but in addition we acknowledge that we don't have any further information to elaborate how the concept works (hence 'mystery'). Just because we don't currently have this information, however, does not mean it violates the law of non contradiction. To say so would be a category error. A contradiction would be 'the trinity is three Gods and one God' - this statemwnt contradicts itself and does not actually make any (logical/meaningful) sense. But '3 Gods and 1 God' is not the concept of the trinity so is irrelevant to an accurate categorirsation of contradiction/paradox/mystery. There used to be a Sproul lecture or two on this as part of a series called defending the faith or something on yt but has been taken down in the past year it looks like. See this short article which doesn't go into as much detail unfortunately but gives you the jist: https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/contradiction-vs-paradox/

>>792298

>Oh, but I'm both an atheist and a theist. How does that work? It's a mystery.

>It's a mystery

Hahaha no. That's a contradiction.

>>792142

>'The set of all sets that are not members of themselves'

How is this a nonsense statement? It’s just a convoluted way of saying “the empty set,” since every set is a member of itself.

Is your "word" somehow a separate entity from you? No. It IS you. So it goes with Jesus and the Father. Jesus IS the Logos - the Word of God. Whatever God is, he is. Just as your own word doesn't somehow go astray and betray you of it's own will, as if it's some kind of separate personality that's no longer yourself. You must realize how retarded that is. So it goes with God and his Word. Jesus can only do what the Father tells him.

And is your spirit somehow separate from you? No. So goes the Spirit and the Father. Thinking otherwise is the same retardery as my example about how our personalities relate to our word. I don't need to repeat it again with "spirit".

Other than that, you're not going to understand. We will forever be learning God. Or if you're stupid, fighting with him (not recommended). But this is part of the joy of life. Embrace it.

Pardon me for saying "retard" in a discussion about the Trinity. I'm just trying to point out the absurdity of those examples. But on second thought, it seems more nasty than I intended.

It is a mystery /thread

>>805072

>>805071

OUT

>>792333

>one person of the Father

>one person of the Son

>one person of the Holy Spirit

Three persons, one God

>>805075

You think i've never doubted? you think i've never questioned or studied? lol piss off.

>>805079

Yes

>lOL pIsS OfF

I will go and you all are beyond DEATH. The eyes of the dead don't see but they are, the ear don't hear but they are. The soul is not in the body and the dead is just a body it eyes not seeing and ears not hearing and this is death. YOU ARE ALL DEATH.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Just one man in the crowd got to help christ carry his cross. YOU ARE ALL PART OF THE CROWD IN THE END.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.