/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I don't think there is any Old Calendarist who post here. Personally my view is that World Orthodoxy has never formally accepted heresy by a council. All of it is just personal sins of bishops at best, essentially its crypto-donatism.

>>782933

>"less fasting!" "priests without beards!" etc

These in themselves aren't anything new (no pews seems to be ancient though). The stricter fasting rules was up to individual descretion and otherwise done only for converts for Lent.. but everyone else/loved ones eventually joined with them. Same with beardless priests. You can simply look at wall paintings and iconography to prove that much. Jewish Apostles didn't shave, but the Gentile world was a tossup. It was only after the Nordic guard came into Byzantium that it became a stronger and widespread trend.. and somehow people associate it with Orthodoxy as if that's been the only way since the beginning.

Old Calanders make great books though (I love Holy Transfiguration's books)…and I understand the general fight against modernism. But that's no excuse.

>>783047

Just to add to that, the books are actually symbolic of everything else. If you've held one, you know what I mean. They put an emphasis on quality. Quality over quantity. I can see their sincerity in other matters as well.

But instead of being a beacon of light within the whole of Orthodoxy (and the world itself), they decided to let pride and hate take over. Monks warn about the demon of pride all of the time, but these people have it in spades.. to think they and their group of 12 or so people are in a battle against the whole world.

Mount Athos emphasizes quality over quantity too, but they didn't become prideful or apostates in the process.

First and foremost when they freak out about the Gregorian calendar being made by a Catholic Pope they should also have in mind that the Julian calendar was made by a pagan. Moreover, calendar zealotism is textbook pharisaism. We use the calendar to count the days not to develop our theology around it. Beware of the ultra-zealots anon, true zealotism in Orthodoxy is inwards, we are not muslims.

I literally see nothing wrong with WCC.

The gregorian calandar is just a better way of keeping Easter around the same time of the year without too many leap days. It's literally a way of counting days, it's sad people split from churches over such trivial things

>>783080

It is exactly the date of the Easter we are not permitted to change. The First Ecumenical Council decided that the date of the Easter is to be announced to all Christians by the Patriarch of Alexandria. Also the Apostolic canons strictly forbid us to celebrate the Passover together with the Jews. The Alexandrian paschalia has this property, the Gregorian doesn't. That's why even the New Calendarist Orthodox Churches celebrate the Passover according to the Paschalia of Old Calendar. And, by the way, the Jews do the same – they also determine the date of their Passover according to a Paschalia linked to the Julian calendar.

>>783083

yes but those are canons not anathemas or dogmatic definitions

>>783056

>I literally see nothing wrong with WCC.

We have several Saints speaking against the participation of the Orthodox in the WCC and no Saint to support it. The following are some quotes by St. Seraphim the Wonderworker of Sofia.

"But we, the Orthodox Christians, confess that Church, as established by God Himself for our salvation, can be called in the strict sense only the one society of true believers Christians. To call every heretical community a church means to not have a correct concept of the Church and trample on our faith in the dogma of the Church set forth in the ninth item of the Creed."

————–

There could be Orthodox representatives at ecumenical conferences only if the organizers of the latter made a declaration to the Orthodox Church on behalf of the so-called Christian churches that are members of the ecumenical movement about their willingness to abandon all their religious errors and unite with it in the Orthodox faith. But those who run the whole course of the ecumenical conferences have never made such statements and will not make them, for non-Orthodox Christians do not even think to renounce their heresies and rejoin Orthodoxy. We should not forget with what stubbornness and fanaticism heretics defend their religious beliefs. The union with the Orthodox Church, as the reality shows, must be classified as isolated facts, and, moreover, very rare and exceptional. Let us always remember the prophetic words of Christ: “When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (Luke 18:8). In view of all this, there can be no reason for us to hope that the so-called "Christian churches" can unite in faith with the Orthodox Church. We should expect even more and greater decrease of true believers.

————–

Hence it is clear who is behind the ecumenical movement. Behind it are the arch-enemies of the Orthodox Church - the Freemasons. And it is also clear from here, to what unity this movement seeks its ecumenical conferences. Their organizers do not seek the dogmatic unification of all the so-called Christian churches with the Orthodox churches, but the confusion of those with the others, through the retreat of the Orthodox from their faith and through their ecumenical friendship with heretics. And this mixture is equivalent to the destruction of Orthodoxy.

However, in the past this business of mixing had more obstacles than now. In the past the Christians had fiery jealousy about the Orthodox faith, for the latter was protected by them to the martyr's blood. Now the Orthodox are embraced with unprecedented indifference to their faith that the Lord hates so much, saying: “Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.” (Rev. 3:15–16). Then, for their jealousy about faith and the purity of the Christian life, the Orthodox had knowledge from God. Theologically unenlightened people, even ordinary women argued in the markets: "is Christ consubstantial or submissive to His Divine Father?" Nowadays, universal blindness reigns in matters of faith reigning among the Orthodox. Taking advantage of all this, the ecumenical movement is rapidly expanding across the face of the whole universe, capturing even Orthodox churches into its intricate networks.

The ecumenism will not be triumphing its victory, unless it concludes all Orthodox churches in its ecumenical universal ring. Let us not give him this victory!

"Thus, the Orthodox ecumenists as head of the corner (the cornerstone) take the unity of the church or the one church. But they put their wrong, perverted meaning into the concept of “one,” for by this one Church they mean not only all Orthodox, but also all non-Orthodox Christians, that is, heretics.

This ecumenical point of view is completely at odds with the Orthodox view, which, by one church, always understands only the truly believing Orthodox people. Our Church has never considered the heretics to be part of it, to be part of the Body of Christ. And how is it possible to regard this ecumenical point of view as Orthodox, when the Ecumenical Councils have always handed down the heretics to anathema, that is, excommunication from the Church? Obviously, ecumenists in their teachings about the Church do not recognize the authority of the Ecumenical Councils over themselves. But this is tantamount to denying the authority of the entire Orthodox Church and recognizing, in this case, the only criterion of the truth of one’s own reason in denying the Orthodox faith in the Church.

The same rationalism and the same disbelief in the true Church of Christ, the ecumenists put in their interpretation of the catholicism of the Church. We, together with the holy fathers, call the Church a catholic or conciliar, or universal because “it is not limited to any place, time or nationality, but it contains the true believers of all places, times and nations. But ecumenists under this name of the church understand not only the true believers of Orthodox Christians, but all heretics.

They show the same error in their attitude about the apostolic nature of the Church. Strange as it may seem, the ecumenists refer to this apostolic church and the so-called “Christian churches”, which have no apostolic origin or succession at all. They consider all heretical confessions to belong to the Apostolic Church, despite the fact that Paul, the greatest apostle, distinguishes all heretics from the Orthodox Church and blasts them as anathema, saying: "Now, even if ourselves or an angel from heaven should preach to you any gospel that is not what we preached to you, let such a one be anathema!" (Gal 1:8)

But most of all, Orthodox ecumenists sin against the ninth item of the Creed with respect to the name "Holy" of the Church, when they include heretics into the composition of this Holy Church. The Church is called Holy because it is the distributor of the grace of the Holy Spirit, which is communicated to believers in the sacrament of Confirmation when Baptism is performed on them.

This regenerating, sanctifying, and saving grace is the most precious and highest good for us, for giving it to us was the purpose of the coming in the world of Christ and of His sacred sufferings and death. "I have come to bring fire upon the earth," he said, "and how I wish it were blazing already!" (Luk. 12:49)

According to the explanation of these words of Christ by St. Anthony the Great and St. Macarius the Egyptian, the fire here, of course, means the reviving grace of the Holy Spirit, which is poured on us in the sacrament of Confirmation when the sacrament of Baptism is performed on us, which is why it is called Epiphany-grace. As parallel to these divine words, one should also point out the following words of Christ: “it is to your advantage that I go away" (of course to the cross and death) "it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7). That is why St. Simeon the New Theologian says: “This was the goal and the end of the whole economy of Christ, so that believers would receive the Holy Spirit … and so that He would be like the soul of our soul … and that by the action of This Spirit we would be sanctified, renewed and they re-built in our mind, conscience, and all senses."

This disobedience of the Orthodox ecumenists leads them to the statement that “the dividing walls between the churches do not reach to heaven itself, to Christ the Head, and do not go down to the very heart of the Church, to the Holy Spirit”.

But these dividing walls, that is, the divisions of the Orthodox Church with the heretics, began to take place at the Ecumenical Councils. They occurred in order to preserve the Orthodox faith from death through confusion with pernicious heresies. There were these divisions in fulfilment of the words of Christ: “Do you think that the world came to the earth? Neither, I speak to you, but division ”(Luke 12: 51).

Also, at the Ecumenical Councils, the words of our Lord were spoken to the apostles and their successors, to the bishops at the head of the Orthodox Church: "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”(Matt.18: 18). It is clear that these separations reach the sky itself. How are these church divisions not reaching Christ when they are based on the words of Christ the Savior?!

Then, the dogmatic resolutions of the Ecumenical Councils with anathema against the heretics were imposed on the basis of the apostolic words: “it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us” (Acts 15:28). Consequently, the decisions against the heretics came not only from the St. Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils, but also from the Holy Spirit Himself. Significant are in this case, the words of Christ, said at the time of His appearance to the disciples after the resurrection: “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.” (John 20:22–23)

It is clear that the anathema of the Ecumenical Councils, which basically had the words of Christ, superimposed on heretics together: from the Holy Spirit and from the Church. The question is, can these dogmatic divisions not reach the Holy Spirit when they have came from Him?

>>783042

> essentially its crypto-donatism.

Indeed.

>>783047

Thanks for this info.

I appreciate the rest of the feedback, but for the most part it's preaching to the choir. I really need help with the WCC issue. The fact that the WCC has literally held pagan rituals and has shown sympathy to LGBTQ+ interests has been a sore point, and I don't know how to counter this.

The Antiochian church broke from the NCC.. I'm not sure what that means for the WCC, but it's probably good. You don't have to be Old Calendar to see the problem of these groups.

There is none because they are right.

The only problem is that they don't follow the AM calendar, which is what Orthodox do. AD is western lies because they hate the OT.