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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: b3e8178bddbc501⋯.jpeg (113.64 KB, 750x750, 1:1, 6171B69B-C98D-4A32-9227-B….jpeg)

090d7c  No.780605

I want to believe so bad but the universe does not need god to explain it, as far as I can tell. I have many questions.

>given what we know about neuroscience and cognitive science, how can I believe there is a soul?

>given the article “Physics and the Immortality of the Soul” by Sean Carroll, how can I believe there is an afterlife?

>given that almost all philosophers of note are materialists, and that Swinburne -assumes- dualism in his proof of god, how can I believe that there is anything about man that isn’t physical?

I’m really struggling here. I want to believe so bad. I’ve been an atheist a long time and a loved one passed. But I can’t believe on the basis of “a transformative personal relationship with Christ” like one pastor recommended. Send help.

d1a58c  No.780611

File: fe56e1b20c22839⋯.jpeg (640.34 KB, 700x6826, 350:3413, unmoved mover.jpeg)

Pic related really convinced me.


090d7c  No.780613

>>780611

My question with this one is that there could just be an infinite series, or that assuming the first cause does not need a cause itself seems like it’s needlessly making an exception.


d1a58c  No.780615

>>780613

The problem with the notion that there could be an infinite series of causes is addressed in the pic. Without a first cause, all the other causes are merely inert potentials that cannot actualize anything. Something is actualizing them, thus there must be a first cause. To reference the pic again, you may as well suppose that an infinite number of boxcars on a train can pull themselves along, or that the engine itself needs something to pull it along before it can pull the boxcars.


090d7c  No.780617

>>780615

I’m trying to be rigorous, so I looked up arguments from Aquinas on rationalwiki. It’s difficult to accept his arguments given all the shit on there. But more to my own question, why does god have to be the first cause? If there can be a first cause, why couldn’t it be the big bang ?


4ea116  No.780620


4ea116  No.780621

>>780617

What caused the big bang in the first place?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JntmuKyj1KU

It can't be "atoms formed" out of nowhere.


090d7c  No.780625

>>780621

>>780620

I’ll have to watch these later tonight, I’m not currently somewhere I can watch videos with sound


d1a58c  No.780628

>>780617

You're misunderstanding what we mean by "cause". This isn't an argument about creator to creation. This is an argument about horse to wagon. You can argue that the big bang was the first act of creation, but you can't argue that the big bang is currently acting upon the universe in such a way that it's currently causing things to happen. I mean, you could say that it's causing the universe to expand, but that line of thought doesn't logically explain, for example, what force is currently acting upon the Sun to make it burn right now. The question isn't "where did the Sun come from?" but rather "why is the Sun currently burning right now?" As Christians, we posit that God is currently acting upon the world in the present; we aren't deists who suppose that God might have just made the universe and then left it to its own devices. That God is acting on the universe right now is the only satisfactory explanation for what's actualizing the chain of inert potentials.


090d7c  No.780629

>>780628

Could you clarify why the big bang can’t be causing things to happen? I get that it can’t be acting on things right now since we’re referring to a past event, but why couldn’t the big bang establish the conditions for things to unfold this way? I’m reminded of the increase of entropy over time


d1a58c  No.780630

File: 21a14dc5cdef93d⋯.png (538.62 KB, 1873x1978, 1873:1978, Problem of Pain Chapter On….png)

>>780629

>but why couldn’t the big bang establish the conditions for things to unfold this way?

You're still thinking in terms of a sequence of events rather than a series of train cars pulling one another. That an explosion happened trillions of years ago doesn't explain why hydrogen atoms have to react with each other, or why electrons have to zip around protons. Even supposing that it's happening because of energy released by the big bang, there's no reason why that energy has to be manipulating matter in the way that it is.

And before I go to bed here, check out pic related for another argument by logical deduction, this one from C.S. Lewis.


090d7c  No.780636

>>780630

I’m gonna have to chew on this for a little. Same with the CS Lewis stuff. Thank you.

In the meantime, can anyone tell me about the soul? I just can’t believe in it and I need something to make me believe


ef4df7  No.780637

>>780605

>I want to believe so bad but

Why do people still fall for this terrible bait?


090d7c  No.780638

>>780637

It’s sadly not bait I just found edge lord shit as a child and now it’s unbearably hard for me to convince myself to have faith because I keep finding things that are, to my eyes, pretty thorough dismantlings of people’s arguments for faith


52a13e  No.780642

>>780638

"The Last Superstition" by Ed Feser is a pretty good refutation of the arguments that you typically see from atheists.

The argument here >>780611 is explored in more depth, and he goes over how atheists misunderstand or misrepresent what is actually being said.

> “Secular theorists often assume they know what a religious argument is like: they present it as a crude prescription from God, backed up with threat of hellfire, derived from general or particular revelation, and they contrast it with the elegant complexity of a philosophical argument by Rawls (say) or Dworkin. With this image in mind, they think it obvious that religious argument should be excluded from public life. . . . But those who have bothered to make themselves familiar with existing religious-based arguments in modern political theory know that this is mostly a travesty…"


432bf6  No.780657

File: 394c45288371292⋯.png (73.93 KB, 630x454, 315:227, ClipboardImage.png)

Google "Ipsum Esse Subsistens" and start cracking through the articles there.


ceed9c  No.780675

File: 008577155a16398⋯.jpg (1.38 MB, 703x2743, 703:2743, 1546580164540 (2).jpg)

>>780605

The existence of God is needed for anything to exist in the universe.

>almost all philosophers of note are materialists

That's wrong.


f4357f  No.780687

Yeah I know existence exploading out of nothing makes a lot of sense


91a650  No.780703

File: 10825c25f30547c⋯.jpg (26.42 KB, 515x200, 103:40, science-makes-theists-heis….jpg)

>>780605

>how can I believe there is a soul

Neuroscience is getting so much closer to decisively disproving a purely materialist perspective that it's getting funny watching people persist without doubts in materialism.

You ought to study the science more.

Only meme-science still has no doubts.


b540df  No.780708

File: 3ddad30c180731f⋯.jpg (52.6 KB, 700x329, 100:47, azquotes-com.jpg)

File: b569858cf4c13f1⋯.jpg (52.49 KB, 850x400, 17:8, quote-the-physicists-defer….jpg)

File: f918b8001993690⋯.png (155.43 KB, 500x522, 250:261, the-first-gulp-from-the-gl….png)

>>780605

One can believe in science and God, OP. You just gotta have faith.


d42c2f  No.780711

>>780703

That's not a real quote. When will this meme end.


3a24dd  No.780714

>>780711

It's debatable whether or not he said it.


d42c2f  No.780721

>>780714

bullshit. You can give a source on that quote otherwise it's bullshit.


d42c2f  No.780722

>>780714

To clarify I'm talking in good faith and I also want it to be true btw.


75ae6e  No.780726

>>780605

>given what we know about neuroscience and cognitive science, how can I believe there is a soul?

I am not intimately familiar with neuroscience and cognitive science, but I can't imagine how they would cause trouble for believing in the soul. The soul of a thing is what makes that thing that thing. You are a person because you have a human soul. The soul also contains various functions that do not exist in any physical organ. People often argue that all thought occurs in the brain, but this is no more true than saying all sight occurs in the eyes. The brain, like the eyes, are a certain physical necessity. You cannot think without a brain, but the brain does not, and in fact cannot, account for all thought. There is a mindset that says "Science is always getting better. Maybe we can't explain it using the brain today, but maybe tomorrow science will know more". This idea is optimistic but misguided. At each point in history the "science of today" has been proven wrong, often in large ways, by the "science of tomorrow". The scientist then has no reason to believe his claims that the brain can account for all thought will be proven or supported or believed tomorrow, even though they are today. For an easy example, compare Newton's gravity with modern gravity. Isn't it clear that they are two entirely different beasts? And in fact, Newton's law of gravitation doesn't hold everywhere at all levels, so such a simple and powerful law that explains so much, almost all, of gravitational relationships, was still insufficient to explain all of them. It is an act of faith, not reason, to say the same will not happen to neuroscience and its claims.

>given the article “Physics and the Immortality of the Soul” by Sean Carroll, how can I believe there is an afterlife?

I have not read this, so I cannot respond at all.

>given that almost all philosophers of note are materialists, and that Swinburne -assumes- dualism in his proof of god, how can I believe that there is anything about man that isn’t physical?

Materialism is certainly a more popular position in philosophy today. This is because materialism is easy, straightforward, and has a few practical benefits. Materialism in modern philosophy however is not based on the philosophical reasons to support it. They are still debating nominalism and realism after all. Materialism in modern philosophy stems, I think, from a sacrifice philosophers made to enable science to quantify the world in a simple and practical manner. This starts with Galileo and his peers and continues onwards. As Francis Bacon says, science should concern itself only with the material and efficient causes of things, not formal and final causes which belong to philosophy. However, seeing the "great strides" of science, many philosophers were more interested in defending sciences limited view of the world as the view of the world, rather than pointing out the obvious: No amount of success with a strategy proves it is the correct strategy. Hume correctly pointed out with his analysis of causation and induction that the world view science has taken up is a house of cards ready to fall over.

To be clear: Science does make great strides, I think that fact is clear. What I am saying is science rests its work on the sand, it is made by conveniently ignoring, and then forgetting, the existence of things it cannot measure. Science can never explain the whole of reality because science was made so productive by ignoring large parts of reality.


2789b1  No.780729

>given that almost all philosophers of note are materialists, and that Swinburne -assumes- dualism in his proof of god, how can I believe that there is anything about man that isn’t physical?

Heres some modern philosophers of note who are not mentalists:

Peter Van Inwagen

William Lane Craig

Alistair McIntyre

Alvin Plantinga

Alexander Pruss

David Bentley Hart

Edward Feser

J. P. Moreland


b1c4cf  No.780760

>>780729

Doesn't even begin to touch the ancient philosophers, including the fathers of Philosophy itself: Socrates and Plato, who believed in an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent God and in the souls of men.

Plus the countless theologians and Christian philosophers throughout the ages (St. Augustine, Aquinas, Boethius, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom, the rest of the Church Fathers, more recent philosophers like Kierkegaard, etc.), and the Biblical prophets (some of which were the wisest men to ever live, such as Moses and Solomon).

Add Wolfgang Smith to your list of modern non-materialist philosophers as well.


2c9299  No.780761

Read this:

The discussion is pretty ancient.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2915.htm

>>780708

The last quote is fake, though he was a devout lutheran.


3a24dd  No.780762

>>780722

I can't and neither could anyone so far.

The quote has been attributed to someone who was writing about the city of Würzburg and connected the quote to Heisenberg but gave no source to him ever saying it beyond his own work which is the first mention of the quote which seems to be a variation upon a way older quote which has no relation to Heisenberg.

Since then people have come out trying to debunk it but there isn't definitive proof for it or against it, that's why I said it's debatable, not debunked or true but debatable, and it will probably stay like this forever since both Heisenberg and the author are dead.


91a650  No.780763

File: c2926b3a4eed9bf⋯.jpg (20.11 KB, 871x208, 67:16, heisenbergs-protege-on-ath….jpg)

>>780711

>implying the internet, abundant in lies, makes any source verification and accurate attribution easy anymore

Thanks for helping ruin the internet

His protege apparently DID write it. Whether he heard it from Mr H' can now be debated.


1e7a95  No.780774

For he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


d42c2f  No.780775

>>780763

>>780762

>>780762

It's bullshit there's really no proof. Im going to post it anyway.

>>780763

F uckyou Reddit. Don't give meme speak.


ceed9c  No.780778

>>780775

Obsessed


d42c2f  No.780785

>>780778

One liners wow thanks for shitting this place up. I hope something tragic happens to you so cunts like you would wise up.

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

ceed9c  No.780819


b540df  No.780868

>>780785

Such unchristian

Very buttmad

Wow


91a650  No.780983

File: e1e7f271e26d332⋯.jpg (11.75 KB, 200x275, 8:11, okabe_what.jpg)

>>780775

>F uckyou Reddit. Don't give meme speak.

What the hell was plebbit about this >>780763 ?!?!

What the hell was "meme speak" about this >>780763 ?!?!

It's a quote from Wikiquotes. Sometimes this board just makes no sense whatsoever.


ceed9c  No.781054

Now I feel sorry for getting that guy banned.


5c34e4  No.781519

>>781054

Why? He woz maad. He needed some time to calm the fug down


eb2634  No.785886

File: dd3a15d2428b265⋯.png (7.67 KB, 112x112, 1:1, _.png)

>>780636

>can anyone tell me about the soul? I just can’t believe in it and I need something to make me believe

ask yourself: is there something other than the material and do i possess any of this something?

are you simply flesh and bone and nothing else?

contemplate these questions and the questions that arise from them.

the christian theology behind this is that you are comprised of both the material and the immaterial.

you have a body and a soul.

body = material

soul = immaterial

man is dust from the soil that God breathed life into.

so that's something to start on. the soul has a more formal definition than what i mentioned here, but that might not be helpful at the moment.

not helpful because: it's much more theological rather than philosophical/logical.


eb2634  No.785889

File: ffdc227c5078eb5⋯.png (7.97 KB, 112x112, 1:1, _.png)

>>780636

>>785886

the formal definition i mentioned might not be helpful at the moment:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p6.htm


33a6e2  No.785915

>>780636

in order for the brain to be the mind, the brain must posses all the same qualities that the mind does, but this is not the case. I'ma be lazy and leave it at that.


666f5b  No.795490

WHAT do I do about the junk about the bible on rationalwiki? It shakes my fledgling faith.


4aa16b  No.795540

>>795490

Examine their assumptions and their chains of causality. Works with anything.


3d35cd  No.795548

File: 1b08f6ed267436a⋯.jpeg (1.07 MB, 667x1080, 667:1080, 0D4C5FBE-EFFC-41C5-AE75-1….jpeg)

In Platonism or any of the other philosophies, man has no dignity. The state is their idol. It is only in Orthodoxy that man has dignity as he is created in the image of God.

Mans problem since the fall has been moral.

The soul is real because love is real, because despair is real, because science cannot provide an account of the conscience.


1ef6da  No.795591

>>780605

>I want to believe so bad

That's because you do believe.

>>given that almost all philosophers of note are materialists

That's a lie. Most philosophers are deeply religious. The philosophical arguments for God are just as compelling as the arguments against God. However, philosophy died with Nietzsche. Those that followed him are not philosophers (just as Nietzsche wasn't a philosopher), they are rhetoricians. However the point of philosophy isn't to tell you what to think, it's to teach you how to think.


be5862  No.795595

>>780605

>I want to believe so bad but the universe does not need god to explain it

How does it feel to be in a special time in history where your thought is widespread and accepted?


3a81be  No.795629

>>795595

Not sure if sarcastic but if you’re looking for a genuine answer it feels horrible


f77a1f  No.795679

File: 80f703c2f2f4a6d⋯.jpg (519.91 KB, 800x1211, 800:1211, 800px-Apsis_mosaic_San_Cle….jpg)

>>780605

Seriously check out the book "Aquinas" by Feser (he also has written other books and has ablog, I encourage you to check them out - Feser is a Thomistic philosopher who makes a fantastic job of introducing and defending Thomism to someone without any knowledge about it). Aquinas's arguments, as convincing as they are when you learn them in detail, can indeed be misleading and it's extremely easy to not understand what they arr saying without a solid introduction. Most of the versions you can find, even in introductions to philosophy that aren't written by someone without expertise in Scholasticism specifically, are botched or even outright strawmen.


050fe8  No.795680

>>780605

Read Edward Feser and Aristotle. Materialism is a flawed philosophical position. People project onto and derive from science way too many incoherent philosophical positions.


63ba92  No.795791

>>795680

>>795679

saving these till I'm well enough to read them, as well as everything else in this thread.




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