/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

winnie the pooh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make multiple threads. I clicked post the first time, but the post wasn't created, and I refreshed the catalog a number of times but didn't see my post, so I assumed it was never made. I've noticed this problem happened a number of times on this board.

>>780249

*I was also too late to delete all of the duplicate threads, since the password changed.

>>780250

>>780249

Don't worry, this happens to everyone.

>>780246

It isn't the guilt that is inherited, but the inclination to sin that is inherited.

Christian dogmas are not infallible. I don't think there's a real answer here either that doesn't involved cognitive dissonance

>God makes Eve from Adam (Genesis 2:21-23)

>they have children, and relatives are of the same flesh (e.g. Genesis 29:14; 37:27; &c.)

>it therefore follows that all humanity, being of a single flesh with him, were with him then

>and from that have the guilt of his sin, and a tendency to sin (Romans 3:10)

>and that tendency can only be overcome by grace given by God (Ephesians 2:8)

>which is gained through faith (ibid.)

>>780253

>>780255

>>780258

The way I read Augustine's is that he doesn't just state that humans have an inclination to sin as a result of Adam and Eve's actions, but that "all have sinned", he states that every human took part in the original sin as an active sinner, as if they were really present at the time with Adam and Eve.

>>780258

But humanity is both body and soul. Augustine's idea of inherited guilt necessarily means that our souls were created with Adam's, but that is not pre-existence of the soul either (it would be more proper to say that our souls are as old as Adam's).

Anyway, OP, Augustine was wonky in several things. Not heretical, but confused. He was right with the other Fathers that all of humanity was in Adam in a sense, but he was wrong to see it from a purely biological perspective and to think that all are personally responsible for Adam's sin.

>>780246

augustine is good, but that view of original sin is just common catholic mind games. its not that we literally sinned, its that we were given a fallen nature, that once we reach an age where we can sin willingly on our own rational self, we invariably do.

Become baptist.

>>780475

Since when do Baptists believe in this?

This is Orthodox teaching, so… begome Orthodox.

>>780263

As I said, they have guilt from his sin.

>>780472

No, it was rather directly from Adam that all humanity came, and as such all were with him (fleshly speaking) when the sin was committed and they therefore have guilt from it.

>>780538

I think Augustine was writing figuratively when he said that "all have sinned", he meant that humans inherited Adam's flesh that is prone to sin. My confusion arose when I thought he meant it literally, that all humans wilfully sinned with Adam.

>>780557

Paul wrote that "all have sinned" in Romans, which is scripture, which means it's God speaking through Paul. The Bible does say "In Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Corinthians

"Sin" is an action

"sinned" is a past tense action

"all have sinned" means everyone has committed at least one sin

If original sin exists in the platonist augustinian concept (inherited guilt), it's not talking about it in Romans 3:23

>>780560

Uppercase Sin is not an action.

Verbs are not capitalized.

>>780477

I'd expect nothing less from Pastor Jim. Next week, he'll criticize the Orthodox for believing that the Holy Spirit only proceeds from the Father.

>>780263

No, you're mixing up nature and person.

Before Adam and Eve had children, all of human nature was expressed only through them. Because nature only is expressed through hypostasis/personhood.

It's not that your particular personhood had eaten the Fruit, but human nature (that we all share and express individually) gains a real spiritual inclination.

This is fundamental to Christology, since Christ did not take your particular personhood; just human nature. If Sin was attached to personhood, and not human nature, then Christ couldn't have saved anyone but His particular hypostasis.

>>780562

Uppercase doesn't have anything to do with it

Sin can be a verb or noun like any other action verb, "walk" "play" "jump"

>>780568

But you did not write Walk, Play, or Jump. You agree with me.

Capitalized Sin in formal texts is used to denote a name of the essence of Sin, and not a generic action or object. That is, such is done with Spirit vs spirit, God vs god, He vs he, and others.

>>780246

>How can all of humanity be present in Adam?

He's literally the first physical man, how can we not?

>Also, wouldn't such a belief imply the pre-existence of souls?

No, but it does mean anyone of the line of Adam (the first man) inherits Original Sin, a corrupted will from birth that we can be forgiven and washed of in baptism.

>>780475

>but that view of original sin is just common catholic mind games

How? It's a logical proposition, we're all literally sons of Adam in the flesh. We have to be re-baptized to be re-born in the spirit of Christ.

>that once we reach an age where we can sin willingly on our own rational self, we invariably do.

"invariably" is a misnomer, you then argue that there are souls that have never sinned, and that is not 1:1 with the scriptures.

>>780571

Maybe, but I'm writing in reference to Romans 3:23 where it's lowercase

>>780587

>He's literally the first physical man, how can we not?

if that is true, wouldn't killing a man who was to become a father make you also guilty of the children he would have had?

>>780610

since there are no actual children present, unlikely, with the scriptures, it calls for the death penalty. the modern world has called capital punishment into question, but for God the punishment He calls for is capital.

>>780610

oh nvm, you were offering a rebuttal. uh, not sure how you could get this reasoning out of the concept of Original Sin.