[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / fa / girltalk / gunt / lisperer / roze / tingles / v8 / xivlg ]

/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Email
Comment *
File
Password (Randomized for file and post deletion; you may also set your own.)
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: ffdaf4b22c8a662⋯.jpg (74.62 KB, 495x336, 165:112, ehrman.jpg)

312a40  No.769714

https://historyforatheists.com/2018/12/jesus-apocalyptic-prophet/

I've been having a lot of trouble trying to effectively debunk Bart Ehrman's claim of Jesus being a false apocalyptic preacher, in short

>Jews get ruled over by gentile empires again and again and live in some backwater country where they get excessively taxed and oppressed by the Romans and King Herod

>Jesus comes along and tells the Jews who are poor, oppressed, worked and taxed to death not to worry, because the apocalypse is soon and the last will come first

>Jesus and the Gospels repeatedly mention how the kingdom of God is close, even Jesus saying to his disciples in Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1 and Luke 9:27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”"

There's even more scripture to back up his claim, in Mark 13:30, Matthew 10:23, then you'll notice in John the mention of Jesus arriving very soon is much less often mentioned. I'm not going to go on because I don't want a tl;dr, so is there a strong refutation to Ehrman's claim?

598999  No.769717

>>769714

I don't think any Biblical scholar, atheist or Christian, denies that the earliest Christians including Paul, believed that Jesus would arrive sooner rather than later. The issue for Christians then becomes understanding and addressing 1. Why they believed that and 2. Why they were mistaken. This issue then leads many to accepting some form or degree of preterism.


38e51f  No.769720

There's a strong chance Brant Pitre's book "The Case for Jesus" refutes Bart Ehrman's claims. he at least refutes his other claims and shows he omits a lot of important points in building his arguments. You can watch some of his talk on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQ-OKjl1ZQ

I highly recommend his other books too, all amazing and ties Old Testament & Jewish Culture with the New Testament like you can never imagine!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfQ-OKjl1ZQ


38e51f  No.769721

The Case for Jesus Course Introduction: Jesus and the Kingdom of God (Part 5 of 5)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmmj_06HE0w


8213b6  No.769722

>>769720

Pitre and Bergsma are great teachers.

It's always interesting when atheists read the Scriptures "sola scriptura" style. It simply does not occur to them that the parables and sayings in the scriptures are not exactly as presented, and they make no effort to read what any of the Church Fathers made of it.


c812ea  No.769729

A.D. 70 and the destruction of the Temple is at the center of Jesus' pronouncements.

And Jesus didn't say the end of the world. The Greek is "aeon". End of the age. Which is why he also says "generation" a lot. The Jewish age. The Old Covenant and Temple age, and the beginning of the age that the prophet Joel spoke of, when the "temple" becomes man's heart, and the Spirit of God comes on Earth:

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions."

This was fulfilled starting with Pentecost, and Peter referenced it himself there.

And Ehrman, despite his apostasy, still has a Protestant pedigree and is a rationalist reading type, as if everything happens in a clear, visible sequence of events. His own poverty in understanding things of the Spirit is his own, but he's too proud to see that, and blames Christ instead. Jesus himself was explicit about this:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."


598999  No.770065

>>769729

This is true, however Jesus (and Paul) both talk of Jesus literally returning at the end of time / the last day to carry out the resurrection from the dead and establish God's rule on earth. Do you see this as being separate from the prophecy concerning the end of the age / 70 AD fulfillment? Or do you not believe that He will return and raise the dead?


b457f2  No.770097

>>769714

The word quickly that Jesus says He will come again quickly doesn't necessarily means soon. It means when He comes again it will be quick. Like God's judgement to Israel and Sodom and Gomorrah in the past


02fbe4  No.770133

The postponement theory is that He was going to return shortly after the ascension if only enough jews had accepted Him, but they didn't. During Stephen's trial in Acts 7 he looks up and sees Jesus standing, not sitting, at the right hand of God (ready to return?). Then they stone Stephen to death, and shortly after this we get Paul on the road to Damascus and a major shift of emphasis towards preaching to Gentiles (which among other things according to Paul was to make the jews jealous).


a1aea3  No.770189

From the OSB:

The Orthodox understanding of the second coming of Christ is clear: The Lord Jesus Christ truly will return. His second advent is not a myth nor an empty promise, nor is it a metaphor. In fact, each time the Divine Liturgy is celebrated, the priest makes a proclamation to the Father that reveals how the Church responds not only to the second coming of Christ, but to all of His work.

Remembering this saving commandment [Jesus’ command to eat His flesh and drink His blood] and all that has been done for us—the Cross, the Tomb, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious coming—we offer You Your own, from what is Your own, on behalf of all and for all.

Orthodox Christians also believe the New Testament revelation of the second coming of Christ is meant to stimulate our preparation for it, not our speculation about it. This explains the relative simplicity with which the Nicene Creed, the most universal confession of faith in all of Christendom, addresses Christ’s return: “He . . . will come again, with glory, to judge the living and the dead, whose Kingdom shall have no end.” The emphasis of historic Orthodoxy is that Jesus will come again, not when He will come again.

Thus, St. Paul writes, “denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works” (Tts 2:12–14).

There are signs of Christ’s coming, to be sure. Jesus prophesied many events that would take place in the world prior to His return (Mt 24; Lk 21:7–36). But even these Gospel passages close with Jesus’ exhortation to virtue, righteousness, and preparation for the Judgment. Christ and His apostles issue severe warnings, implicit and explicit, against second-guessing the time of His coming (Mt 24:3–8, 36, 43, 44, 50; Lk 21:7–9, 34; Acts 1:7; 1Th 5:1–3; 2Pt 3:8–10).

Much of modern Christendom has succumbed to divisive speculation regarding Christ’s return. We are divided into premillennial, postmillennial, and amillennial camps. Breaking it down even further, there are pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation adherents. Christians part ways and new denominations spring up around interpretations of events that have not yet even come to pass!

Throughout history the Orthodox Church has steadfastly insisted on the reality of the second coming of Christ as a settled belief, but has always granted liberty on the question of when it will occur. In the last chapter of Revelation, Jesus speaks the words, “I am coming quickly,” three different times (22:7, 12, 20). His coming will occur on a day and at an hour when it is not expected. The apostle John, the author of Revelation, concludes his book with a warning:

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book (Rev 22:18, 19).

To confess the return of Christ is to stand squarely within the apostolic tradition. To add “when” to the promise of His coming is warned against in the Scriptures. As members of the Bride of Christ, let us attend instead to being ready.


6f1bcc  No.770190

>>769714

The resurrection refutes his claim.

If Christ were only a preacher, there'd be no reason to raise Him from death

Scratch this guy, I guarantee he'll deny the resurrection, and then you'll know he has no part with us and anything he asserts Jesus meant with his words are just more worthless dust


6f29ce  No.770242

>>769714

As a sidenote, love the author of that site.

He knows how to smack down idiotic fedora conspiracy theories, with sources and all.


9d4053  No.770287

>>769729

>Revelation was just a prank bro

>H-He’s not actually coming back, heh

>We’re stuck like this in a ruined creation for all time


e70fa2  No.770322

What Jesus is referring to when he says this generation will not pass before all this is fulfilled is the destruction of the temple. Read through the Bible and look for mentions of "coming of the Lord" - or something similar. This refers to judgment. God judged Jerusalem with the fall of the temple and the massacre of the Jews. This judgment however is different than Jesus' second coming.


948917  No.770490

File: 14d2ba0e0170a4c⋯.gif (65.39 KB, 400x402, 200:201, Preterism-70ad.gif)

File: dd798c63c9b2af2⋯.jpg (181.83 KB, 1000x637, 1000:637, ercole_de_roberti_destruct….jpg)

File: 117bcb04e1687b8⋯.jpg (45.33 KB, 487x337, 487:337, EditorItem_37831_3_57028.jpg)

>>770065

>This is true, however Jesus (and Paul) both talk of Jesus literally returning at the end of time / the last day to carry out the resurrection from the dead and establish God's rule on earth. Do you see this as being separate from the prophecy concerning the end of the age / 70 AD fulfillment? Or do you not believe that He will return and raise the dead?

In 70 AD there was a judgement against the physical nation of Israel which Jesus had prophesied, but there is also a literal, physical second coming of Christ and resurrection of the dead, which is still future. This is 'partial preterism', the position of most people who believe most Bible prophecy has been fulfilled (called preterists). 'Full preterism' claims everything has been fulfilled and allegorizes everything, but most consider that a heresy.




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Cancer][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / fa / girltalk / gunt / lisperer / roze / tingles / v8 / xivlg ]