Actual Discussion of the Crusades

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Actual Discussion of the Crusades Christanon 01/26/19 (Sat) 19:21:08 54f3b6 No.761994

Can we have a thread where we actually discuss the Crusades, without any larping? Just actually discussing the rights and the wrongs.

Christanon 01/26/19 (Sat) 19:37:52 59ca0c No.762008

The only wrong that was committed was in 1204 and also their failure to hold the holy land.

Christanon 01/26/19 (Sat) 19:40:34 22405c No.762011

File: 227eb5bb2b2af2c⋯.png (54.97 KB, 250x344, 125:172, 250px-Map_Crusader_states_….png)

>>761994

I'm sad they couldn't hold the Middle East

Christanon 01/26/19 (Sat) 20:03:58 90d593 No.762027

>>761994

Well they raped, pillaged and murdered innocent people, but the initial cause of it was justified, seeing as it was self defense. But then some of them helped take Constantinople, so…

Christanon 01/26/19 (Sat) 21:59:33 f904d0 No.762055

>>761994

They should have focused more on taking out the great powers in that region first then take back the Holy Land, like Heraclius did when he fought the Persians, instead of only focusing on the Holy Land itself. I think they could have done it with the momentum they had going.

>>762008

Honestly, with all of the shit that was going on between the Byzantines and the Venetians, that was bound to happen anyway. Unless, by some miracle, their leaders had been able to deescalate the situation.

Christanon 01/26/19 (Sat) 22:46:49 2c3e83 No.762068

>>761994

If the christians united, they could have easily subdued north africa and the middle east.

Christanon 01/27/19 (Sun) 05:57:17 3acdf4 No.762215

>>762055

Weren't they trying to do just that though? Almost all of the Crusades started weakening Egypt first. But there were probably not enough forces to secure mesopotamia..

Christanon 01/27/19 (Sun) 15:01:20 87684c No.762382

>>762068

>>762215

I swear to God I wrote exactly the same two comments yesterday, but the mods deleted them.

My first comment was (replying to OP):

>If the Orthodox and Catholics worked together they could've freed the middle east from Muslims.

My second was (replying to 55):

>They tried that, they attacked Egypt but failed.

So either someone tried to replicate my comments after deleting them, or this is some astounding coincidence.

Christanon 01/27/19 (Sun) 15:05:48 87684c No.762383

>>762382

Also, I want to add it happens all the time that mods delete ALL my posts after one post (in another thread) was found to "breach the rules" or w/e. Either someone doctored this or it's crazy coincidence /divine intervention.

Someone let me know pls.

Christanon 01/27/19 (Sun) 15:14:26 56c29f No.762385

>>762027

You know there was more than one Crusade, right? And those cases were by far in the minority, right? The Knights Templar were celibate. Most of what you hear in popular media about "but those Christians were bad too" is 1) cherry-picked and played up, or 2) outright fabricated.

Christanon 01/27/19 (Sun) 15:19:33 56c29f No.762387

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo

Historical fact, rather than pozzed fan fiction.

Christanon 01/27/19 (Sun) 16:42:57 f7a0a0 No.762395

>>762385

Pillaging was not in the minority, and that goes for both sides. Also their hearts weren’t in the right place seeing as how in the end Christians were fighting other Christians. On top of it all, it makes our faith look evil and hypocritical seeing as how Jesus taught “love they neighbor”.

Christanon 01/27/19 (Sun) 17:10:49 17a3dd No.762399

File: 69c000c7b9957de⋯.png (30.2 KB, 300x293, 300:293, ClipboardImage.png)

The Templars genuinely did nothing wrong.

Christanon 01/27/19 (Sun) 17:28:35 6b6614 No.762405

File: bf86c17e026d624⋯.png (1.64 MB, 1162x850, 581:425, 1481927173068.png)

>>761994

Remember that while the middle eastern crusader states ultimately fell, they lasted for quite a decent time. Also, don't forget that the Northern Crusades and the Reconquista were more successful.

As far as 1204 is concerned, there was a lot wrong there, but it was ultimately more a result of Byzantine politicking than anything.

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 00:12:59 df0cbb No.762573

>>762399

They attacked Constantinople in the 4th Crusade, raped nuns on the altars of churches, and propped up a whore to seat of the Patriarch. But the best part came last: They ransacked the riches of the East, and brought up back many materials from the libraries that even the East didn't care about any longer (such as Aristotle). Then proceeded to fag out your own civilization by devoting a whole Renaissance to it. Poetic Justice.. literally. The West is still paying for it. So I can't exactly remain angry about the rapes. They've done it to themselves a thousand times over.

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 00:26:10 0d8171 No.762577

>>762573

>the West degenerating is God's justice for the 4th crusade

You know, I never thought of it that way. Makes alot of sense now that you mention it. Thank you for this, christanon.

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 01:11:29 6e6adc No.762583

File: e8e288433c54b1a⋯.jpg (75.32 KB, 430x542, 215:271, e8e288433c54b1a35fa3d006bf….jpg)

>>762395

Pacifism isn't Christian though. Otherwise how do you account for not just the crusades, but all the wars that Russia, Austria, and spain? What about in Spain? Specifically spain i want to see what you're answer is to this. Were the Spanish justified in retaking back their land? And also what's your denom? Cause in Orthodoxy they teach there can be justified wars, both in defense and offense. And if it's a protestant denom, you could even go and look up C.S Lewis's Essay on Pacifism Where he actually takes you through not Just Christian History, but back to the ancients. Where No Civilization taught Pacifism, sorry but they don't. No Ancient Christian state taught pacifism, stop taking the 20th century bait. And once you overcome this, it would make sense why we see in the bible such as, Expelling of Canaan's land.

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 01:32:04 2c3e83 No.762585

>>762573

The blame isnt on the catholic church though. It wasnt in the plan to sack constantinople.

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 02:36:37 a0a817 No.762595

What about the Crusade against the cathars?

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 09:30:33 440a8b No.762685

>>762573

>They attacked Constantinople

They did, and it was evil. But there's a bit more to it than that.

>Underfunded Crusade

>Byzantines who aren't in power offer money to the Crusaders if they defeat the Byzantines who are in power

>Crusaders do so

>Scheming Byzantines come into power

>Don't have money to pay the Crusaders

>Crusaders chimp out

Let's also not forget that a few decades prior the Latins living in Constantinople were slaughtered by Byzantines.

We can play the blame game but this happened a long time ago, wrong was committed on both sides.

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 09:57:53 cb6297 No.762693

>>762595

They are called the "Albigensian Crusades"

And they were wrong.

I think that letting the cathars develop their own views would have benefited christian theology in the end. While many of their doctrines could've been rejected, some of their mistakes could have given us glimpses of the greater overarching truth of God.

But what's done is done, and for better or worse, here we are with a history full of mistakes and tragedies. That being said Crusades were not all bad, and I think we should have another one, but do it right this time.

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 20:30:18 529ce6 No.762929

File: c4e549fa59feb75⋯.jpeg (1.13 MB, 3836x1890, 274:135, 198C639B-0262-4223-8A25-D….jpeg)

File: 6f5a03603546919⋯.jpeg (177.56 KB, 1528x1910, 4:5, 1765BC96-C9B1-410E-980F-B….jpeg)

A blessing and a curse to us middle eastern Christians. On one hand, the crusaders inflamed the already hostile Muslim Christian relations and we got caught in the middle. They also pushed Byzantium over the edge and persecuted Arab orthodox Christians in the holy land as if they were Muslim too.

However, on the other hand, the French crusaders were pleasantly surprised to find the Maronites, fellow Catholics, who were the only people who greeted them welcomingly. The Maronites has been living in mountain valleys for centuries and had long awaited the arrival of catholic reinforcements. Up to 40,000 Maronites fought with the crusaders, many taking the role of crossbow archer. It was at this crossroads of history that the destiny of the Maronites truly began. From then on we had a consistent relationship with France, who saved us from the ottoman Turks and later created Lebanon, the only Christian-led middle eastern nation. Without Lebanon, Christianity in the Levant May have had a far different outcome. As a Maronite myself, the crusaders were a curse when it came to our relationship with Muslims and orthodox, but also a blessing that empowered us.

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 20:47:30 186c3a No.762939

>>762585

Hey, did u write this comment >>762068 of your own accord?

I'm asking because >>762382.

Can a MOD confirm this please, I assume you can see deleted comments? Maybe the Islamo-Christian ecumenist MODS took offense with my wording ("removing muslims"/"freeing from muslims", whatever it was).

Christanon 01/28/19 (Mon) 21:59:31 2c3e83 No.763012

>>762939

yes, i am the author of both of these comments.