/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>760910

There's more to afterlife than kingdom of heaven and hell. Catholic and orthodox believe in hades and abraham's bossom.

>>760910

Look up John 1 in the Orthodox Study Bible and see the note they put when Jesus is baptized. Also look up the epiphany.

Imo the symbolism and imagery in that chapter (and a few other places, I’m just thinking of John right now because I remember they have a note about this) are partly, possibly, to take care of exactly this question. The spirit remained with him. Remained is key. Baptism was not required for him, but he did it anyway so things would be proper. That’s my take. I just was wondering about this same question actually it’s interesting you posted this question right now. Do look it up though, the note is helpful.

No, because Jesus never sinned, unlike all others of humanity.

>>760921

>>760920

I thought OP was asking about baptism in general. But these are true too, although I doubt Jesus would die anywhere but on the cross. It was planned from the beginning.

I don't know what's up with the weird answers above.

The baptism of John the Baptist was symbolic, to represent the Jews repenting of their sins before the imminent arrival of the Kingdom of God.

Jesus was baptized by John anyway to sanctify the waters in preparation for the sacrament of baptism, and to reveal himself as the Messiah and reveal God as a Trinity to John in a vision.

The sacrament of baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is not symbolic. It unites us to Jesus's death so that we can be ressurected with him.

Jesus did not need salvation, he himself is the Savior. He went to Hell to preach the gospel and to rescue the righteous, to bring them to Heaven.

All baptism is symbolic. Salvation comes by belief.

No, because he didn't have original sin.

>>760935

And the sacraments

>>760969

Wrong

History was building up to Jesus. God is all powerful, so there could not be a freak accident.

>>760910

Uhhh he descended into hell before he rose to heaven so why even ask?

>>760964

This.

Jesus didn't get baptized to be saved. He did it to submit and humble himself, and equip himself for service. St. John didn't even want to do it, if you recall.

First Jesus is God in case you didn't understand. He can do wtv He wants.

Secondly people who died before Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom/limbo of the patriarchs (wtv you wanna call it) where they waited for the Messiah.

Thirdly the Baptism of John isn't the Christian baptism. It's a preparation of the baptism in the name of Jesus like Luke calls it, and that's why the apostles "rebaptised" those who only had the baptismo of John.

Baptism cleanses you from orginal sin, Jesus didn't have any original sin. If you die in a state of original sin, you are Damned

>>760915

>There's more to afterlife than kingdom of heaven and hell. Catholic and orthodox believe in hades and abraham's bossom.

Hades is Hell. As for Abraham's Bossom, either Jesus's parable was about the state of the dead before His death and resurrection (and Wisdom tells us about their state at the time of the Old Testament), and therefore Abraham's Bossom was the part of Hell where the righteous were kept (but now it is Heaven since Abraham is in Heaven); or Jesus's parable was imagery for Heaven and Hell (and Wisdom is a prefiguration of what would happen when Jesus rescues the souls out of Hell), and so Abraham's Bossom is Heaven, full stop.

>>760920

>The spirit remained with him. Remained is key. Baptism was not required for him, but he did it anyway so things would be proper.

But what does it mean for "things to be proper"?

>>760921

>>760964

>>760984

>>761107

Do you think Jesus was just a man but He never sinned so He went to Heaven? Jesus was both God and man, and He went down into Hell and came back.

>>761017

>He did it to submit and humble himself, and equip himself for service.

That is Nestorianism. There isn't the "divine Jesus" Who is already almighty and the "human Jesus" who needed to "submit" or "humble himself" or "equip himself for service" as if He did not already possess those things from eternity.

The above was to address things which seem either very badly worded or simply heretical to me. Remember you need to agree to the Nicene Creed to be considered a Christian here.

>>760935

<Baptism is prefigured in the Old Testament:

Genesis 6; Genesis 7; Genesis 8; Exodus 14 - Water destroys sin and purifies the world.

Genesis 17 - It is through circumcision that one joins the people of God.

Isaiah 35; Isaiah 44:1-5 - Water is the source of life.

Ezekiel 18:19-32 - We must repent so that we can receive life from God.

Psalm 51; Job 14 - We are all born with a nature disfigured by original sin. No goodness can come out of it.

<Baptism is fulfilled in the New Testament and is not symbolical:

Matthew 20:17-28; Mark 10:32-45; Luke 18:31-34 - Jesus calls His death, and the future martyrdom of His Apostles, a "baptism".

Matthew 28:16-20 - Jesus commanded His Apostles to baptize others in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1:1-8; Acts 1:4-8 - John baptized with symbolical water, but Jesus baptizes us with the true Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:14-18 - We must have faith and be baptized to be saved.

John 3:1-21 - We must be born again of water (Baptism) and of the Spirit (Confirmation) to be a new creation.

Acts 2:14-39 - We must 1) repent, 2) receive Baptism, 3) receive Confirmation, to be saved.

Romans 6:1-14 - Through Baptism we are united to Christ, we die and resurrect with Him and become a new creation.

1 Corinthians 7:10-16 - Unbaptized children, like all unbaptized people, are unclean and cannot be saved.

Ephesians 2:1-10 - We are by nature children of wrath. We must be made alive in Christ to become children of light.

Ephesians 5:8-14 - We must die and rise again to receive the light of Christ.

Colossians 2:11-23 - We are buried with Jesus and resurrected with Him through Baptism. Circumcision was the prototype of Baptism.

1 Peter 2:4-10 - We are a royal priesthood, joined to Jesus the High Priest.

>>760969

See 1 Corinthians 4:1-5; Ephesians 4:1-6; Colossians 1:24-29; Colossians 4:2-6. St. Paul certainly didn't seem to think the sacaments are mere symbols.

>>761119

I'm not Nestorian by any measure. I'm Orthodox. Maybe it is badly worded if you assumed that much. So I apologize for that, whatever set that off. But I'm just referring to scripture, of Jesus fulfilling the law and "gaining in stature with both God and man". Nothing to do with his nature. He was everything, fully God and man, at his birth. When I said he was preparing himself for service, I merely meant preparing himself for ministry. Which is all it was. Not some change of his nature. But a change in that his time for ministry had fully come. I used service intentionally, because the OP didn't sound Christian, and he wouldn't get the meaning of an ecclesiastical word like this. I probably phrased other things badly as well, because I thought I could simplify this.

>>761124

I am sorry for calling you Nestorian then. You just didn't word it very well at first.

>>761119

>Do you think Jesus was just a man but He never sinned so He went to Heaven? Jesus was both God and man, and He went down into Hell and came back.

Jesus is both fully man and fully God, I did not mean to imply otherwise.

But Christ did go down to Hades.

>>760910

No, because he was sinless. He was the new Adam except he didn't screw things up like the first Adam did. And when we are in Christ, God regards us as legally sinless because Christ was sinless.

One must be baptized to be saved because,

1. They have inherited the original sin of Adam

and therefore

2. Are adopted by God through baptism.

As Christ was already sinless and the son of God his baptism was wholly symbolic.