/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Quick rundown?

>>757011

Ukraine was under the jurisdiction of the Moscow church. Now that they are at war, Ukrainians wanted to be autocephalus and not under Moscow anymore (basically they're asking for that for centuries but more frequently the last 30 years). Moscow didn't want to let them go because of their policy of the Russky Mir (Russian World, i.e: Ukraine is not a real country and belongs to us). Anyway the Ecumenical Patriarch decided to just give them the autocephaly and Moscow is mad.

>>757007

I posted this map yesterday in the Ortho general saying that some 60 churches of the MP have switched to the new OCU. Since yesterday, another 12 parishes of the MP have joined the new church. The parishes are free to remain in the MP if they want but they can change jurisdiction by vote from the clergy and laity.

>https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1XQR0sfHFFiiXyGiVYqI1mNylJ9fFPdnh&ll=49.4742385410442%2C28.04668874999993&z=7&fbclid=IwAR0tZD7PJmR8Fz4pQJG_EZtiz1E_md2nc6dOanWsURfdlejbLCH5l2LJu-o

>>757011

Ukraine nationalists hate Russia and petition for independence from Russian Patriarchy

Russian Patriarch says no

Ukraine petitions Constantinople instead

Constantinople says sure

All hell breaks loose and both sides accuse each other of glowing in the dark, Russia accusing EP of being CIA controlled, and EP accusing Russia of being KGB controlled

>>757019

>EP accusing Russia of being KGB controlled

The Ecumenical Patriarch never accused or tried to downgrade anyone and that's why he gained my utmost respect after all this (i didn't really care about him before). He had "religious" news agencies calling him names all day, Putin and his hierarchs treating him like shit and cursing him and from his side you could only hear words like "our Russian brothers".

Related to that, reposting from the Ortho general

The new metropolitan of Kyiv, Epiphanius, didn't commemorate Kirill of Moscow when he was first elected. Many were scandalized by this move. But in the Christmas liturgy, obviously under the guidance of EP Bartholomew, he commemorated his name too in the diptychs.

Kirill on the other side, didn't commemorate nobody. He didn't even read the diptychs, not even the name of the Serbian Patriarch who's always on his side.

This is kind of a big deal because the diptychs are there to show with who you're in communion, when a patriarch is reading them he shows with who's his church in communion with. Below are the videos of the liturgies.

Epiphanius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhzjD1ooWX8

Kirill (1:21:50)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4917&v=sfv_ExuDNQ0

For outsiders who can't see were the big deal is in all that jurisdiction stuff, you have to understand that there's war over there, religion unfortunatelly is getting caught in it. Orthodoxy in Ukraine was dying everyday because of it and something had to be done about it.

>>757030

Oops, sloppy wording, I was trying to paraphrase common arguments of both sides.

>>757034

I guess that's what happens when I try to abbreviate and tl;dr a complicated situation

>>757034

Heh no worries, i just wanted to pay my respects to the EP. I literally went and buy two of his books few days ago. I always thought off him as a somewhat lukewarm (the irony of me thinking that), overly ecumenist old man. Turns out that's very far from the truth.

>>757007

>so we don't have to derail the Orthodox general

The thread wasn't derailed, just no one was responding to you. Probably because either they don't care, or they don't share your enthusiasm for the schismatics.

Onother parish of the MP joined the OCU yesterday, the first of the Chrernihiv region, North Ukraine, to do so. So far, about 80 parishes of the MP have joined the OCU in those few days.

https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/74324/

>>757246

This is from the pan-Orthodox council of 2016. Irinej have signed this too.

In Orthodoxy there's no Papal supremacy neither a protestant coalition of churches.

We're somewhere in the middle.

>In the event that two autocephalous Churches grant autonomous status within the same geographical ecclesial region, prompting contestation over the status of each autonomous Church, the parties involved appeal—together or separately—to the Ecumenical Patriarch so that he may find a canonical solution to the matter in accordance with prevailing pan-Orthodox practice.

>>757246

I don't think so, the Media is more powerful than any patriarch or emperor could ever dream to be. Will to power religious leaders are a symptom, not the disease itself.

The official enthronement of Met. Epiphanius next month

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/2621386-enthronement-of-metropolitan-epiphanius-to-take-place-in-early-february.html

what justification does russia give for schisming? people here seems to be taking the side of EP and Ukraine

>>757753

They haven't given any and that's the more troubling. It would be more understandable if they would cut the communion with Pat. Bartholomew alone, that has happened many times in the past, Patriarchs stop commemorating each other to show discomfort. But Moscow tried, unsuccesfully, to force a wide scale schism in all the Orthodox world. They literally forbid Russians to visit Mt Athos (most just go anyway). If that wasn't enough, they try to pass this to the people by spewing hate and fake news, especially to the American new converts. Their behavior is totally unacceptable for Orthodox Christians the last few months.

>>757763

What's your affiliation? You sound like CIA.

6 Awkward Questions to OCU Creators

continued

>Schismatics physically seized a parish in the village of Krasnovolia in Volyn, locking out the rector and ruling hierarch, Bishop Nathanael of Volyn and Lutsk. Activists brought a “Kiev Patriarchate” priest and declared him the new rector.

>Radical nationalists from the Svoboda terrorist organization forced a parish in the Odessa Province to switch to the schismatic structure. As the priest refused, the schismatics will be supplying a new priest. Svoboda radicals also prevented the clergy and faithful of the St. Nicholas Church in the village of Vorsovka in the Zhytomyr Province from entering the church. The rector, Fr. Vitaly, was forced to served outside the church. The radicals tried to drown out the service by shouting the Ukrainian national anthem. They claim they have already drawn up the necessary documents to force the parish into schism.

>Ancient icons were stolen from the wooden Church of the Archangel Michael in the village of Smolyava in the Volyn Diocese as well as some Church utensils. The theft was noticed on January 13.

>Radicals from the group C-14 vandalized two churches in Lvov with graffiti statements such as “Moscow Patriarchate get out of Lvov,” and “MP-FSB.” The radicals themselves posted pictures online with the caption: “C-14 activists reminded the Kremlin agents that they have no place in Lvov.”

>The clergy of the Chernivtsi Diocese appealed to their local authorities with an open letter calling to stop the persecution against the clergy of the canonical Church. The letter reads: “We, as citizens of our state of Ukraine, want to report that the state authorities are committing criminal prosecutions and repressions against the clergy and pressure on the clergy and faithful children of the UOC – Hertsa deanery.”

>“We will confess the faith that Christ has left us,” the statement says. “We remain faithful to the Lord God, our canonical UOC in the person of his Beatitude Metropolitan Onuphry of Kiev and All Ukraine and will serve, first of all, God, the true Orthodox faith, and the Ukrainian people, and we will be in prayer with the entire canonical Orthodox world.”

http://orthochristian.com/118649.html

>>757818

>>757819

Fake news btw

>>757011

Tl;dr, schismatic churches eventually schism into smaller schismatic churches

I'm surprised how this isnt so obvious to many

>>757911

> Temporal schisms in Orthodoxy are to be healed and not to be used as weapons against other Orthodox. Real schism can only occur when the differences are dogmatic and not political.

Amen brother. This alone is the truth of the matter.

>>758040

It's actually the opposite since about 10-15.000.000 souls who used to be in schism re-entered the church again. And if you consider that those people stayed loyal to Orthodoxy for 30 years even though they were in schism and forgotten by the rest of the Orthodox world (in a country that Unia has also traditional presence), we can say that we're talking about very faithful people and not lukewarms. Add to them the Mayan people that entered Orthodoxy after the mass convertions that occurred there a few years ago, we can see that the Orthodox church is rapidly growing, both in numbers and in quality. The events with Russia may be unfortunate but there's no not any real schism, people who use that word all the time don't now what it means. Schisms only happen for dogmatic reasons and it takes two parts to validate it.

>>758055

Everything's gonna be fine i believe it.

>>758430

I also should mention the Albanian Orthodox church that has become from literally non existent in Albania to 17-20% of the population there in only 30 years.

The parishes of the MP that've join OCU now reached 100. Most from center and western Ukraine while in eastern Ukraine majority seems to want to stay with the MP.

https://www.unian.info/society/10414779-some-100-parishes-of-former-uoc-mp-join-new-orthodox-church-of-ukraine-media.html

All parishes in one of Lviv districts join new Orthodox Church of Ukraine

https://www.unian.info/society/10427481-all-parishes-in-one-of-lviv-districts-join-new-orthodox-church-of-ukraine.html?fbclid=IwAR0snUXZ4TfF2eekskRfrFeaMpbmqVHPvPWJQSZVhILzAcExCQjnrmISMD0

Abbots from Mt. Athos monasteries Vatopedi and Xenophontos, Ephraim and Alexios, will attend the enthronement of Met. Epiphany in Ukraine.

This is probably in responce of emerging fake news articles saying that the elders of Mt. Athos are against Ukraine's autocephaly.

http://orthochristian.com/119045.html?fbclid=IwAR3FerFJAEr8IwAYLit3uMzkzVQQ-OhOISfpbe4WgIzfI7uoRRbioi-8AbI

Lastly, yesterday in Russia was the celebration of 10 years after the enthronement of Pat. Kirill

For anyone who's still having doubts, listen to what Putin says at 3:48 about Kirill and think again why did the Ukrainians wanted their own autocephalus church.

>The 3 Patriarchs, John X of Antioch, Cyril of Moscow and Irenaeus of Belgrade, have today celebrated Grand Catholic Orthodox Divine Liturgy in Moscow, in the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, commemorating the Feast of St. Mark of Ephesus the Defender of Orthodoxy and Patriarch Cyril's 10th anniversary as the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia. Divine Liturgy according to dyptichs was presided by the Patriarch of Antioch.

>For the first time in centuries, 3 Patriarchs at the Divine Liturgy did not commemorate Patriarch of Constantinople Bartholomew.

>Only present bishops were commemorated.

>Divine Liturgy was also celebrated by His Beatitude Orthodox Metropolitan Rastislav of Czech Lands and Slovakia and His Beatitude Tikhon Orthodox Metropolitan of Washington and all America and Canada.

>Also by His Beatitude Orthodox Metropolitan of Kiev and all Ukraine Onuphry.

>Holy Orthodox Patriarchates of Alexandria, Georgia, Romania and Bulgaria also had their bishops present at the Divine Liturgy, as well as the Orthodox Church of Poland.

>>765025

Glory be to God

The political psyops against Russia lately are pretty intense. May God protect them (and all of us). Even that Fatima thread reminds me all over what Russia is up against.. not just political tricks, but the whole arsenal of deception.

Georgian Orthodox Church reply to threats by Moscow (google translate)

>OFFICIAL STATEMENT OF THE GEORGIAN PATRIARCHY IN INTERVIEW OF MITROPOLIT HILARION

>In the program “Church and the World,” the chairman of the Department for External Church Relations, Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev), in that part of his interview with the Georgian Orthodox Church, made a mixed impression on Georgian society, as it was perceived as a kind of pressure and imposition of obligations on the Georgian Orthodox church.

>When asked by the journalist, if the Georgian Church recognized the autocephaly of the Ukrainian Church, the Russian Orthodox Church would not reconsider the status of the churches in Abkhazia and the Tskhinvali region, there was no direct answer from Vladyka Hilarion, instead he said that such a step could be dangerous for the Georgian churches.

>We also note that Metropolitan Hilarion incorrectly focused on the participation of the GOC in the Cretan Council and the issue of the Diptych of the Orthodox Churches. He said that the Russian Orthodox Church, out of solidarity with the Georgian Church, did not take part in this Council. We do not know why the Russian Orthodox Church refused to participate, but it’s a fact that the Georgian Church did not ask the Local Churches for support in this matter.

>Also, the fact that the Moscow Patriarchate puts the Georgian Orthodox Church on the sixth place in the diptych, and Constantinople on the ninth, does not mean that the Georgian Orthodox Church is obliged to take into account the position of the Russian Orthodox Church on the Ukrainian question.

http://patriarchate.ge/geo/%E1%83%A1%E1%83%90%E1%83%A5%E1%83%90%E1%83%A0%E1%83%97%E1%83%95%E1%83%94%E1%83%9A%E1%83%9D%E1%83%A1-%E1%83%A1%E1%83%90%E1%83%9E%E1%83%90%E1%83%A2%E1%83%A0%E1%83%98%E1%83%90%E1%83%A0%E1%83%A5-4/

https://cerkvarium.org/ru/novosti/pomestnye-tserkvi/srochno-v-gruzinskoj-tserkvi-otvetili-na-shantazh-rpts.html?fbclid=IwAR3WFxjEPYMdHWZ-pw6J8FfDzc4lo5rrrmF1TbiHytKyraO9NstiPbSfb54

>>764948

Well it's an informative thread. I intent to keep it up for updates and to tackle fake news.

Better than the "what did God mean by this" and "what denomination should i try" threads

>>761085

>archons

oh you mean the same liberal organization of blowhards that gave a humanitarian award to the governor of new york that just passed the abortion bill?

i better listen to them

>embed related

Ukrainian schismatics interrupting an Orthodox Divine Liturgy thanks CIA-tiggers

>>765755

The archons main goal is supporting the EP and the religious freedom of all Christians around the world. They have nothing to do with politics. The governor was awarded in 2016 for his support to the Orthodox community in America. The abortion bill was passed this year and of course, the archons condemned it.

https://www.archons.org/-/condemn-ny-abortion-law

I'm sure that you know all that stuff i'm just answering it to give an example of how some people are trying to divide and destroy the Orthodox church with fake news and propaganda. But it's all in vain, the Orthodox church has go through worse and survived.

>>765772

Can I ask you a question ? Who is better the Cia-tiggers or the KGB-Jews ?

>>765772

For the record, here we can see a group of Ukrainian nationalists tagged as "schismatics" as a way to dehumanize all Ukrainian Orthodox

>>765841

The Russian are always labelling every Ukranian extremist as a schismatic, as a way to dehumanize the new Ukranian Church.

>>765843

Well there is a network of "religious news" agencies that have taken up the task to spew hate and division in the church. Together with an army of fake profiles on social media.

Orthochristian and Union of Orthodox Journalists are the most well known.

>>765851

Yeah, there was a article in Orthochristian that said that the Autocephaly of Ukraine was done in Borgia Style, I can understand being against the action of EP but these guys apparently only know how to hate the people against them and follow a blind love for those that are in favor of their views.

A lot of people were suspicious of the EP to begin with. This just confirms it. It won't stop now.

>>765898

>OrthoChristian is literally fake news.

Do you have a single fact to back up that claim?

>>766034

So what did Gennady Zyuganov do that was bad? Did he arm radicals to induce bloody regime change?

>>766045

> Good Communist

> On the occasion of Soviet leader Joseph Stalin's birthday on 21 December 2010, Zyuganov called for the re-Stalinization of Russian society in an open letter to President Medvedev.he communist party played only a minor role in the protests, with one of its speakers, who called for restoration of Soviet power, being booed off the stage.He is on record as hoping to renationalise all major industries and he believes the USSR was "the most humane state in human history".

Being part of the most anti-religion ideology, whose members destroyed the Orthodox Church where they could touch, promoted their anti-christian values to around the World, isn't that a little bad? Or does he need to be from the west, to be considered a bad person?

>>766003

Please snap out of your out of touch prespective. How is the CIA involved in any of this? Americans and EU support the EP on this for their own reasons of course, but that has nothing to do with the EP actions or the Orthodox church in Ukraine and in general.

Let me ask you this, Ukraine was Russia's playground for 300 years. How did they manage to make an Orthodox country to 70% Orthodox, of which 40% was in schism and only 19% (the Russian diaspora basically) members of the "canonical" church? Let alone having 3 different church structures in the country. People were getting sick and they either turn Catholics or Protestants, or abandoning faith all together. For 30 years everyone was asking for a solution and nobody give a damn, especially Russia that only cared for the Russian diaspora there because for them Orthodoxy is only a cultural imperialism tool. The Ecumenical Patriarch was begging them to find a solution themselves and he was also ingored. Finaly he took it up on himself and unified the shattered pieces to one church. What would you do if you were in his place?

>>766045

Zyuganov is the guy who has "canonized" Stalin as an Orthodox saint. Members of his party are crossing themselves and kissing his icons, total madness.

Here i found it. Check out 1:17. Total madness and paganism.

That's not Orthodoxy

>>766358

Lord have mercy!!! And there are people who claim that Russia is the last christian bastion, if what these people say is true, this is truly the end of times. The Soviet Union has fallen, but (((their))) strength has not diminished. I pray to God that in the future Russia can be released of the chains of the devil, but this isn't not looking that it'll be done anytime soon.

You are by far the worst shill I have ever come across. Truly embarrassing, m8.

Tomos on vassalage: where Orthodox Ukrainians are herded to

>>767905

"When did it become appropriate or acceptable for Christian dialogue and Orthodox discourse to descend into such darkness? Though what should one expect from some who use the Body and Blood of Christ as a bargaining chip in negotiations"

"The motivation of His All-Holiness, like a sincere father who cares equally for all his children, was to offer compassion and bring comfort to the millions of Orthodox who found themselves outside of the canonical Church. The rapid opposition and smear campaign against him serves only to show the true character and now not so hidden agenda of his detractors"

"The Moscow Patriarchate has often done whatever it wanted: from granting “autocephaly” where and when it wanted without regard or any canonical basis to do so; to unilaterally establishing autonomous churches; to encroaching on the canonical territory of other local churches; to undermining and trying to disrupt and quietly sabotage pan-Orthodox dialogue and synodality"

"Time is not on the Moscow Patriarchate’s side. The torqued rhetoric will fall into obscurity and eventually be forgotten. In fact, one has to wonder what the marginal benefit to the MP’s propaganda is at this point – are they attracting new supporters or simply speaking into an online echo chamber?"

https://theorthodoxworld.com/exclusive-with-ukraines-autocephaly-the-moscow-patriarchate-shows-its-true-face-to-the-world/

>>768316

Oops sorry i didn't meant to quote you

“As of today, that is, literally within a six-week period, at least 204* parishes have joined the Ukrainian Orthodox Church,” she said during the Conciliation Council of the chairs of factions and parliamentary committees on January 4"

“According to statistics, and due to the communities’ willingness, thousands more parishioners and religious communities will have joined it by the end of this year,”

https://www.orthodoxianewsagency.gr/foreignnews/over-200-parishes-of-former-uoc-mp-join-new-orthodox-church-of-ukraine/

*that was few days ago, now the parishes are over 220

I'm also reading that Russians are ignoring Kirills schism and will travel to Mt. Athos again this year regardless.

May the Orthodox Russians send a strong message to their leadership who is trying to isolate them from the rest of the Orthodox world for political reasons. The Athonite monks and the Ecumenical Patriarchate have stated that Russian are always welcome in Athos.

It's tempting to be frustrated as an American, but maybe ROCOR has a reason to still exist. All churches deals with the sins it must, but Moscow seems especially bad coming out of this.

>>768327

Things are really not that bad as Moscow trying to make them to be. In 1-2 years they themselves would have accept the autocephaly.

Even though this was a huge blow to their narrative that all slavs are one people under the wing of Holy Russia.

Cyprus comes forth to openly support Ukrainian Orthodox Church

https://www.foxnews.com/world/cyprus-orthodox-church-backs-ukrainian-churchs-independence

After Cyprus, Romania's church takes official stance regarding Ukraine

https://basilica.ro/en/holy-synod-examines-ukrainian-ecclesiastical-issue-at-first-2019-working-session/

>>774261

>When your attack to the Orthodox Church miserably fails and it's somehow the fault of da j00s

https://www.unian.info/politics/10451181-cyprus-church-condemns-russia-s-aggressive-policy-toward-orthodox-church-of-ukraine.html

"The priests note that the representatives of the Russian Church had the opportunity to come to the Council and state their position openly and negotiate a dialogue, but this was never done, therefore, they did not have the right to ignore the Council and interfere in the OCU's affairs, and they shall not have such right in the future,"

>“As far as I know, there are already about 400 parishes that have not only expressed their desire but have held a general constituent assembly where the decision was made with a majority of votes to join the OCU,” Metropolitan Epiphanius said.

>“This process is gradual, and I adhere to the position that we must not measure this with time and quantity. This process should be gradual, peaceful, voluntary. The basis is not quantity but the absence of conflict or war. We have no right to incite another religious front in Ukraine. We have enough war in the east. If we open the religious front inside the country, then this can end very sadly for the Ukrainian state. […] There is no need to take into account the figures and set chronological frames,” the primate of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine said.

https://theorthodoxworld.com/about-400-uoc-mp-parishes-joined-orthodox-church-of-ukraine-metropolitan-epiphanius/?fbclid=IwAR2G5UtUCgewL0h20oBxpQ2E9fZzQ7P3lQzF6dsgCDDSzgCjl4TsExSfLs8

“Of course, we need to negotiate. This statement only came last week. We will discuss everything. We are ready. And it will be a mirror step, because a vicariate has already been created in the territory of the Romanian Church for Ukrainian parishes where they pray in Ukrainian. Why not give Romanians the same opportunity?”

https://www.romfea.news/metropolitan-epiphanius-i-am-sure-the-romanian-church-will-recognize-our-autocephaly/

It seems that the Slavic Patriarchs are trying to deepen the schism, not just East vs West, but now Slav vs The Ecumenical Patricate.

>>784264

Serbia and Antioch are Russia's puppet churches. It's a shame for the Orthodox church to submit in political pressure, even if for Antioch is a life and death issue.

The Serbian Patriarch basically said that any Serbian can do whatever he wants, either stay in communion with Constantinople or not. Which is a trully ridiculus potition considering it came from the synod. He probably knows that what he's doing is wrong but on the other hand he don't want to piss off Russia. Propaganda tabloids like the orthochristian are trying to take it even further and make it a Greek world vs Russian world schism. I see a purge coming soon in one way or another.

>>784349

What are they schisming over?

>>784353

Ukraine. An 100% political issue.

>>784364

Are the Jews behind this?

>>784372

Nah

>>784353

Russia is upset that Constantinople gave autocephaly to Ukraine. Originally Ukraine was under the jurisdiction of Russia. The Russians will claim and cry "muh CIA-ÑIGGERS" and the Greeks will cry "muh KGB patriarch". Both are technically right, the US under Obummer has admitted to staging a coup in Ukraine, igniting the civil war. The new Ukrainian Patriarch even awarded a medal to the former head of the CIA (I forget his name, but he is on the Council of Foregin affairs and is an expert in regime change). Patriarch Kirill used to work for the KGB, just like the absolute Mad Vlad Putin.

Greeks say Ukraine has the right to autocephaly. Russia says that they also have the right to autocephaly but they didn't ask Russia first and Constantinople didn't convene a council, ergo the ruling is illegitimate.

Makes you wish they had a higher authority to settle their disputes lol

>>784385

Christianity without the seat of st. peter - yes, that's a pretty succinct summation!

>>784386

The seat of Peter is in Antioch.

>>784382

>Russia says that they also have the right to autocephaly but they didn't ask Russia first and Constantinople didn't convene a council

Which is a huge lie because they did call for a council, one pan-Orthodox in 2016 and one for Ukraine, but Russians didn't show up in both.

>Makes you wish they had a higher authority to settle their disputes

That's what the seat of Constantinople does since the ancient times. The problem is that Russian church try to undermine that seat.

>>784382

Sounds like everything will be fine.

>>784386

Been down that road, papists, and it ends in disaster *cough*Francis*cough*.

>>784390

Than by asinine logic, the capital of the Roman Empire is still in Rome and not Constantinople.

>>784396

Maybe if yee proto-prots hadn't schismed, your conservative values would be in the West and the actual prots would never have created liberalism or communism. Sparing the whole world the evils of modernity we all have to suffer under. Also, get used to being in Rome. EPat. Bart will get the East back in communion with the West. If not during his reign, he will lay the ground work for his successor to do so.

>>784393

>he never read Saint Pope Gregory's epistle against Constantinople usurping St. Peter's authority

>or any other early Church father for that matter

Oh I'm laughing, bud.

>>784413

Why do papists feel the urge to discess their papist rants in a totally unrelated thread?

Are papists the new fedoras? Open a thread and we can discuss there.

>>784421

It proves your argument invalid. The leader of Rome can move the capital of Rome. The leader of Christianity can move the capital of Christianity. It's not rocket science, friend.

>>784420

I was contributing to the thread. Explaining the drama to the person that asked. I'm sorry you have such burning hatred for Jesus' Church and you need to virture signal about it. I'll keep you in my prayers, friend.

>>784494

Do you know of any prayers that keep shitposters away? Makes some of those instead.

btw, recently a byzantine-rite catholic (uniate) parish in Lviv dediced to join Philaret´s church, lel

>>784528

Link? Because that's great news for Catholics to come back to the orthodox church

Orthodoxy was dying and Unia was on the rise in Ukraine when they were under Putin's church

Long story short.

>Ukraine is running out of money

>Chocolate king wants more money, even after sucking everyone's pensions away

>decides to dry out the church because they have lots of land and wealth

>turns out the majority belongs to the Moscow orthodox church

>appoints a heretical priest as the head of the new "Ukraine sovereign" orthodox church

>ask the approval from the Constantinople patriarch, who cucked out and gave his blessing

>Choco King has now the rights to force the Moscow orthodox church to follow under the "Ukraine sovereign" church, giving him rights to optain their wealth

>another schism

>>784661

>T. Church of Moscow - Intelligence Department

>>785069

Something I pray with all the time. I should start asking /ourLady/ to help fix the schism and unite Christendom and make it great again.

#MakeChristendomUnitedAgain

>>785096

Amen it’s only in the interests of the evil one to divide the body of christ

>>785163

>Filaret Denisenko is married and doesn't even qualify for bishop

Nobody cares about Filaret. He's a 90 years old, ex KGB, priest like Kirill and most of the Russian clergy. The faster those guys leave the better for he church.

>Athos stands with the Russian church

Nice delusions

>>785165

>This fake "church" will disappear

For now it's going strong. Over 500 parishes of Moscow have swiched to the Ukrainian church. Of course it's still very early to make assumpions but i have faith in them.

Putin should be more worried about his own country and it's rampant atheism if he cares so much about Christianity and leave other countries alone.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Living_Church

Remember.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Alexander_Vvedensky

Never, ever forget what the socialists did to the Orthodox, and will do again to every other denomination if given the opportunity. Read "God's Secret Armies" when you get the chance as well.

>>785207

>The church should stand strongly against his icons and people venerating them.

Except they did.

The icons and canonization process were proposed by a literal communist group from outside the church.

The Synod considered it outrageous, insulting and retarded, given what Stalin did to the OC, and flatly rejected even the suggestion.

>>785538

The communist party is the second largest party in Russia and has close ties with the Russian church and Putin of course. It's leader, Zyuganov, the guy who canonized Stalin, was awarded by the church recently.

>>785527

>the Orthodox Church in America (OCA) not only allows Oriental Orthodox to take communion in their parishes but also are told to treat Oriental Orthodox the same as Eastern Orthodox, per Fr. George Gladsky and Archbishop Alexander

Proof?

>>785582

In terms of hard proof, call an OCA priest yourself. I learned this from my own, Father Paul. I suppose I could include a censored form of our email correspondence over the issue. Here's a video of Archbishop Alexander talking about it though.

>>785614

What the hell? What is the OCA doing? This is honestly scandalous. Was this decision taken at a synod in particular, or is it an ecumenist (I mean this in the worst sense possible) trend that is just very popular, or it is an order given from up top quietly?

>>785637

In the past the ecumenist trends were strong in some Orthodox theological circles, but this isn't so anymore. This isn't something particular to OCA. There are bishops making pro-ecumenist statements who are Greeks, Russians, Romanians, etc. In the past there were even some truly scandalous cases of communion of Russian bishops with Catholics. But all this seems to be going away. In the past most of the heads of the Orthodox Churches were influenced by the ecumenism. But now? Bartholomew is openly ecumenist, but who else? Maybe the Romanian Patriarch a little. Possibly the Patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem but their flock is so much anti-ecumenist that they seem to never speak openly about it. So don't worry too much.

>>785527

>When will we stop creating Schisms and ending them instead like the OCA has at least attempted here?

There can be no compromises about the faith. Different rites and customs are not a problem. Different faith is. The common faith is what holds the Orthodox Church together in the Holy Spirit, not the common rites. According to an Orthodox canon, those who separate themselves from a heretical bishop do not create a new schism in the Church. On the contrary, the canon says, such people preserve the unity of the Orthodox Church.

I don't think that Archbishop Alexander makes heretical statements in this video. He upholds that the common faith is a requirement for a communion. He only (wrongly) suggests that the Orientals have the same faith that we have. And it is not difficult to reach such a wrong conclusion, especially if you participate in ecumenical dialogue.

Why? Well, consider for example the relations between Orthodox and Catholics. We have our Orthodox way to interpret the statements some Western Fathers have made about the proceeding of the Holy Spirit from the Son. Do the Catholics in this board agree with this Orthodox interpretation? I suppose in most cases they do. In fact, even in official talks between Orthodox and Catholics the Catholics have agreed to the Orthodox interpretation of such statements. They have agreed with us that the word 'proceed' in the Latin language is ambiguous and they have even agreed that it would be a heresy to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son if you use the Greek word.

So what? Do we have a common faith? No, we don't. The Catholics have their "ecumenical" councils where they specifically declare that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as from cause. And this is a heresy. Do the Catholics participating in official talks with Orthodox agree with the Orthodox interpretation of the filioque? Yes, they do. Then perhaps they will agree that the Holy Spirit doesn't proceed from the Son as from cause? Well, they can't because they can't oppose openly their "ecumenical" council. But maybe they can be Orthodox only in their hearts, without open confession? No, they can't because "with the mouth confession is made, resulting in salvation" (Romans 10:10), because "whoever will be ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels". (Mark 8:38)

>>785656

Has the Ecumenical Patriarch openly given communion to heretics or non-Christians?

>>785672

No.

>bad individual clergy means I should write off a whole portion of orthodoxy!

This thread went to pot fast.

>>786163

M8, I'll take scheming and political powerplays over "Secret Sodoma" Rome any day, and so would you. It's normal, occasionally forceful politics. Lamentable, but not a hideous blasphemy.

>>786167

Oh don't get me wrong, I've long given up trying to defend Post Vatican II Rome.

But I just want to know who's the righteous party here or if there even is one.

>>786170

There isn't, really. There is rarely ever a "righteous party" when a schism happens. This has always been the case.

This being said, the EP is right to do a power move to solve the crisis in Ukraine, but very wrong to 1) do this without even consulting Moscow first, as if Moscow had no spiritual motherhood over Ukraine, regardless of the canonical circumstances that led to Ukraine passing under the wing of Moscow; and 2) give Ukrainian nationalists and shady individuals what they want, betraying the EP's own stance against phyletism. Moscow is right to protest Constantinople's aggressive move, something that pretty much every hierarch of the Church has lamented, but Moscow is dumb to not use this as an occasion to grant autocephaly to Ukraine themselves (thereby proving that Moscow is the Mother Church of Ukraine), and Moscow is outright wrong to break communion as the first option and to do a smear campaign against the Ecumenical Patriarchate (in comparison, the EP has only responded with dignity and charity, not even breaking communion with Moscow in return).

Essentially, Constantinople is the authoritarian elder brother who remains calm even though he's pissing everybody off and doing something extremely stupid, and Moscow responds by thowing a tantrum and making a lot of noise, but not much else.

It is but a raincloud, it will go away.

>>786224

Explain? Most of us don't speak borscht.

>>786220

>Matthew Raphael Johnson

Lmao. Next up, Matthew Heimbach.

Seriously tho if you are intrested in Orthodoxy stop reading these rubbish, you're losing all the essence of the faith.

>>786321

Non argument.

Even if this Heimbach were the worst sinner in the world, it would still not be an argument against Dr. Johnson as Christ broke bread with some of the worst sinners. Since when did saying someone’s name become an argument in itself? The Jews tell you X person is a racist and most modernists flee at top speed from that person. You’re hiding from the Jews like Peter.

>>786347

Those are not ordinary sinners but heretics. They target other Americans who are looking into Orthodoxy and confuse them with political crap and conspiracy theories.

There's no such thing as white people's only Orthodoxy and Putin is no a god-emperor. Get as far away from them as you can.

>>785527

>You realize Orthodox have a Rosary too right?

I'm having a tough time swallowing this.

Considering that, from what I understand, the Orthodox Church isn't exactly thrilled about the utilization of imagination and internal visualization in spiritual practices due to such things being breeding grounds for prelest (can also say this from personal experience), I'm going to need more substantially evidence for an "Orthodox Rosary" than a couple of blog posts (one clearly being sympathetic to Eastern Catholicism) and a forum post on Free Republic.

>>786459

Orthodox have a prayer rope which is a simpler design than a rosary, no decades, just a single unbroken chain of knots. Most are usually made of knotted cord instead of beads, but I have seen some with beads. The biggest difference is in the prayers. Orthodox use the Jesus Prayer constantly instead of the combination of multiple prayers that Catholics use.

>>786946

Exactly. That's what I'm familiar with: the prayer rope, not an "Orthodox Rosary" with decades and meditating on the mysteries like the articles advocate.

>>757007

This is a very disturbing development in the Ukraine.

Just to be clear, I am an Orthodox American, never been to Russia, not some great Russophile here. Not some shill for the Moscow Patriarchate.

But in 2014 it is pretty clear some shady things happened in the Ukraine. You had all these neo-fascist groups rising up and attacking the police… now you have Bartholomew giving awards to Joe Biden and involved in what I believe is a CIA proxy coup in Ukraine.

The CIA and NATO and all these western foundations are the enemies of Orthodoxy. Trust me, I live in the belly of the USA freemasonic beast.

>>787464

Euromaidan had many aspects. Ordinary people wanted to move away from Russian rule and obviously America and the EU show it as an opportunity to gain influence. But that's the political part. As far as faith go, Russia was using Orthodoxy as a propaganda tool resulting to a decline of Orthodoxy in Ukraine as people were losing faith in the church.

Bartholomew as the ecumenical Patriarch, politics aside, couldn't leave a whole country in schism and now the time was right to heal it. Russian church show her true face by not attending any council.

Be sure that both the American and the Russian states are enemies of Orthodoxy. Russia maybe more because they reduce our faith to a soft power tool that will lead to an inevitable backlash again and the victims will be the faith and laity, not Putin and Kirill. The same thing that happened with communism.

>>787511

You say that we should keep politics out of this, but tell that to Bartholemew who is now promoting all this green movement stuff and liberalism, giving awards to Joe Biden - once again political and nothing to do with Orthodoxy.

The true enemies of the faith - godless neocon John McCain types - are eating this up and want to get more Bartholemew. Perhaps he lacks discernment.

In America lukewarm ‘Orthodox’ call us Orthodoxy or Death types “Russian shills” when we criticise Bartholemew.

>>787627

Just to clarify, Bartholomew being an environmentalist predates his realpolitik by a looong time, and is his own thing(neocons arent exactly tree-huggers, anyway)

>>787637

I’m just saying if the complaint is that Moscow is being political, so is Bartholemew indulging the CIA in whatever they’re up to in Ukraine. And when you cooperate with the CIA in their revolutions, you will always get stabbed in the back. They are promoting schism with Moscow because the NATO bloc doesnt control Moscow. You can see this “LGBT rights” movement making ground now in the Ukraine.

Moscow is of course not perfect, but what has the Moscow Patriarchate done to merit this?

>>787627

>green movement

The best thing that happened to the Orthodox church in a while. I wish other Orthodox leaders were as foresighted as Bartholomew.

>liberalism

He never promoted liberalism. Maybe you fell victim of fake news or you don't know what liberalism is

>giving awards to Joe Biden

I had to look this up. The Archons awarded Biden for the support he gave to the religious freedom of the EP. Keep in mind that the EP is in Turkey and Turks are still oppressing it's freedom. Plus Russia that is Turkey's ally and also an enemy of the EP. I see nothing wrong with Joe Biden about this.

>In America lukewarm ‘Orthodox’ call us Orthodoxy or Death types “Russian shills”

Orthodoxy or death is a typical Old Caledarist slogan. I don't know if you are OC but it's true that Russia sponsors many groups like that in Orthodox countries.

>>787650

I'm sorry but that's a rant. Millions of Ukrainians were in schism because the Russian church didn't acknowledge them as a "real country". Bartholomew call them all to a counsil and Russian refused to attend. Plus they stopped commemorating the EP and tried to force a schism to others as well. Now that this approach failed they are starting to mellow out and it's only a matter of time before they accept the new reality again.

That's the whole story. LGBT rights and the CIA are totally unrelated to anything.

>>787658

Don't listen to me. Listen to Saint Nikolaj Velimirovic. Apparently he's a conspiracy theorist according to lukewarms.

https://www.docdroid.net/mH5ri0a/early-greek-ecumenism-and-freemasonry.pdf#page=2

Is there any reason why they wear those crowns around?

>>787720

>Could you cite evidence for this? Because the Ukrainian Orthodox had a church prior to this with broad rights but it was just under the jurisdiction of Moscow.

The Russian church in Ukraine was really just a tool of propaganda of the Russian state. They proved that even more by not attending the council for a unified church in Ukraine by the orders of Putin. Their believers were around 15% of the total Ukrainian population, which is also the percentage of the Russian diaspora in Ukraine to no one's surprise. Ethnic Ukrainians were in schism. If the Russian church cares only about the Russians around the world it's their problem but Orthodoxy doesn't belong to them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Ukraine#Types_of_Orthodoxy

>Orthodoxy or death just means that. You don't have to be OC to use that slogan. The monks at Mt. Athos still raise the Byzantine flag, pray for the Orthodox emperor, and operate on Byzantine time.

The only ones who are using the "Orthodoxy or death" banner in Mt Athos are the schismatics Old Calendarists of the Esfigmenou monastery who are a real problem to the actual monks over there. They are the ones who came up with the slogan before their Russian counterparts adopted it. Byzantine flags are a different thing, it's the flag of the Greek church, nothing to do with old calendarism.

Turkey is in NATO but also a close ally to Russia. Russians seel many weapons to the Turks in spite of NATO's disagreement. Both Turkey and Russia are enemies of the Ecumenical Patriarchate that was there before any of them even existed. Paid agitators don't die for their cause. I don't know how and if the CIA was involved in the Euromaidan but then again that has nothing to do with Ukrainians need to have their own church and not be depended on the church that's blessing the weapons that are killing them and their relatives.

>>787889

It literally is, that's the whole point. There're 0 theological arguments to deny the right of Ukrainians to self govern their own church.

>>787888

Putin is not perfect. Dugin wrote a book Putin versus Putin about the conflicted nature of the man (and I don't agree with everything Dugin says so don't sperg about that). However, do you think the Patriarch of Constantinople cannot be compromised when the Pope of Rome can? They both live in NATO countries. Putin is doing a service to Orthodoxy by not letting the big liberal foundations into Russia to destroy the church.

>>787888

>religion dragged into politics

Well too bad. The church is above the state.

The ecumenist movement is also heresy, I gave you a quote from a SAINT saying it is freemasonry. This movement attempts to sabotage Orthodoxy and it's led the Patriarchs of Moscow and Contantinople to both promise not to make converts, which is just preposterous and unorthodox.

Roman Catholicism is heresy which Palamas predicted would lead to atheism because it doesn't make a distinction between God's energy and essence. Divine simplicity leads to contradictions.

You cannot be in communion with the Pope of Rome and be Orthodox.

>>787900

Yes there are. For hundreds of years the church in Ukraine has been under the jurisdiction of the church in Moscow.

It's funny how people like Bartholomew will condemn "ethno phyletism" to the skies except when it is being used in Ukraine by the CIA to threaten Russia.

>>788005

1) It was many more years unders the jurisdiction of Constantinople before it was seized by Moscow

2) Moscow's actions created 5-6 different uncanonical churches over there plus they opened the door to Catholic and Protestant missions to take root

I think you are misunderstanding things here.The Orthodox church cares about the souls of the people, not about countries or wannabe imperiums. It is our faith not Putin's personal ideology.

>>788343

>It is actually the diasporic, decentralized nature of Orthodoxy that is saving us from a Vatican II type "reform"

We actually believe that it's the Holy Spirit that's guarding the Orthodox church not some protestant confederacy

By uncanonical i meant the different, schismatic Orthodox churches that existed in Ukraine before the autocephaly. Since Ukraine was under Moscow they should have done something for them because the majority of Ukrainians were part of them.

Please don't compare the Byzantine emperors with Putin it triggers me.

>>788556

I hope you're not implying that Putin was crowned emperor of the white race or something by sitting there. Because that's the seat of the special guests in Athos.

>>788605

>We do have our own form of a "Rosary" that goes back to the 8th Century, called the Rule of Theotokos. Both Sts. Seraphim of Sarov and Seraphim Zevedisnky used it. Look it up.

And, once again, as I said before, I'm going to need something more substantial than blog posts and forum posts. Especially in light of Orthodoxy in general viewing visualization/imagination with askance at best.

>>788609

The link I posted was archived from an official Western Orthodox website if you actually bothered to look. The Rule of Theotokos does not indicate belief in visions or meditation on images while doing the prayers. That is why there are beginning and concluding prayers to each decade, your focus is on those prayers, not the specific event inscribed. There isn't any vision-related meditation involved, unlike the Latin Rosary.

>>788605

How about St. Gregory of Palamas? Can he be disregarded in the grand ecumenical crusade to reunify with Rome?

>>788611

In your original post >>785527 , you had a blogpost which linked a story that had nothing to do with an Orthodox Rosary whatsoever. Just traditional prayer rope style prayers:

https://orthodoxlifemagazines.blogspot.com/2018/06/1982-2-journey-to-diveyevo-1926.html

>Then V. V. told us that there is a rule of St. Seraphim, which must be performed, namely, to walk around the "ditch" (that is, the path around the convent) three times with prayer-rope in hand and say the prayer “Virgin Theotokos" one hundred and fifty times and the “Our Father" one hundred and fifty times, then to pray for all your relatives and acquaintances, both living and dead.

Then you had a link to a blogpost, with explicit sympathies to Eastern Catholocism, and an explicit mention of mysteries to "meditate on":

https://themasterbeadsman.blogspot.com/2012/05/prayer-rule-of-theotokos-v-rosary-rule.html

>As I mentioned in my first post about the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos, most Eastern Catholics….

>But as a private devotion the rosary and the Rule of the Theotokos are practically indistinguishable, except for the prescribe mysteries upon which to meditate. But since in the East there is such a large variation on this Rule, it would be perfectly acceptable to adopt the mysteries as recommended for the Dominican rosary. In fact, during the Baroque period it was not uncommon for the Orthodox in Kiev as well as in Greece to pray the Dominican rosary simply as another variation of the Rule of the Theotokos.

>In keeping with the weekly liturgical cycle of the Byzantine East, I recommend the following:

>Monday - mysteries 1 - 5

>Tuesday and Thursday - mysteries 4 - 8

>Wednesday and Friday - mysteries 6 - 10

>Saturday and Sunday - mysteries 11 - 15

>>788670

-continued from the post above

And the link that you repeated from your original post, linked to "Western Orthodoxy", literally goes through each decade and aspect to "remember" in absolute detail:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/982831/posts

>He gave one of his spiritual children the task of copying a plan which he included his prayer to the Ever Virgin Mary. Here it is:

>First decade: Let us remember the birth of the Mother of God. Let us pray for mothers, fathers, and children.

>Second decade: Let us the feast of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin and Mother of God. Let us pray for those who have lost their way and fallen away from the church.

>Third decade: Let us remember the Annunciation of the Blessed Mother of God—let us pray for the soothing of sorrows and the consolation of those who grieve.

>Fourth decade: Let us remember the meeting of the Blessed Virgin with the righteous Elizabeth. Let us pray for the reunion of the separated, for those whose dear ones or children are living away from them or missing.

>Fifth decade: Let us remember the Birth of Christ. Let us pray for the rebirth of souls, for new life in Christ.

>Sixth decade: Let us remember the Feast of the Purification of the Lord, and the words uttered by St. Simeon: Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also (Luke 2:35). Let us pray that the Mother of God will meet our souls at the hour of our death, and will contrive that we receive the Holy Sacrament with our last breath, and will lead our souls through the terrible torments.

>Seventh decade: Let us remember the flight of the Mother of God with the God-Child into Egypt. Let us pray that the Mother of God will help us avoid temptation in this life and deliver us from misfortunes.

>Eighth decade: Let us remember the disappearance of the twelve-year old boy Jesus in Jerusalem and the sorrow of the Mother of God on this account. Let us pray, begging the Mother of God for the constant repetition of the Jesus Prayer.

>Ninth decade: Let us remember-the miracle performed in Cana of Galilee, when the Lord turned water into wine at the words of the Mother of God: They have no wine (John 2:3). Let us ask the Mother of God for help in our affairs and deliverance from need.

>Tenth decade: Let us remember the Mother of God standing at the Cross of the Lord, when grief pierced through her heart like a sword. Let us pray to the Mother of God for the strengthening of our Souls and the banishment of despondency.

>Eleventh decade: Let us remember the Resurrection of Christ and ask the Mother of God in prayer to resurrect our souls and give us a new courage for spiritual feats.

>Twelfth decade: Let us remember the Ascension of Christ, at which the Mother of God was present. Let us pray and ask the Queen of Heaven to raise up our souls from earthly and worldly amusements and direct them to striving for higher things.

>Thirteenth decade: Let us remember the Upper Room and the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles and the Mother of God. Let us pray: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me (Psalm 51).

>Fourteenth decade: Let us remember the Assumption of the Blessed Mother of God, and ask for a peaceful and serene end.

>Fifteenth decade: Let us remember the glory of the Mother of God, with which the Lord crowned her after her removal from earth to heaven. Let us pray to the Queen of Heaven not to abandon the faithful who are on earth but to defend them from every evil, covering them with her honoring and protecting veil.

>After every decade Bishop Seraphim prayed his own prayers, which he revealed to no one, so that only the Lord and the Queen of Heaven knew these prayers.

>Thus, we can see that the Rosary is a completely Orthodox form of devotion to our Lady.

Are you kidding me?

>"Let us remember…"

Saying prayers many times using a prayer rope is not out of tune with Orthodoxy. But decades? Mysteries? Meditations? "Let us remember…"? What, is "remember"? Just a code word for just chanting words? Memory/remembrance engages far more senses than just sound and words, and considering that the sources citing these decades, and mysteries and remembrances, are Eastern Catholic or Western Orthodox in origin, in contrast to the "Journey to Diveyevo" link and story that describe a more traditional use of a prayer rope, fills me with more suspicion than ever.

Are there any sources that aren't blog posts, or have connections to "Eastern Catholicism" or "Western Orthodoxy"? To be quite frank, if what you posted is true, this also confirms to me the dangers of mixing and matching theologies and traditions, since many traditions tend to be informed by something that is beyond skin-deep.

>>788623

Never been on reddit. I just space it out so it’s easier on the eyes.

Palamas says that Roman Catholicism leads to atheism. We should be converting Roman Catholics and ignoring fake bishops who say we shouldn’t as they are heretical.

>>788674

>Palamas says that Roman Catholicism leads to atheism.

lol, I suppose that whole communism thing in Russia really embarrassed this guy

>>788791

Read Solzhenitsyn. It was the Jews.

>>788802

ah, so you believe Stalin was a good Christian then

>>788806

(((Oh sure, it was the Russian Orthodox behind communism, goyim))).

Nice derail from our conversation about Palamas’ predictions about RCC.

>>788818

Palamas' prediction about the RCC only came true out of his own church. That's his shame, and now, yours.

>>788819

Keep LARPing. Many new martyrs went to their death for Christ. I know a lot of lukewarm “Catholics” who would be giving in very quickly if they had the KGB pointing a gun at their head.

Catholicism was never really persecuted to that level or on that mass scale in the West before. Yet funnily enough it is declining even faster than the Orthodox who were under severe persecution. But continue scoffing at muh horrible Orthodox of little faith. Muh Fatima.

>>788822

>Catholicism was never really persecuted to that level or on that mass scale in the West before.

Mexicans, Spanish, Frenchmen, Englishmen were all persecuted in their home countries

>>788822

I do not base my own perception on whom is the true Church by my own logic, but Christ's. If it doesn't have the Seat of Cephas, throw it out!

>>788822

>Catholicism was never really persecuted to that level or on that mass scale in the West before

wut

see the reformation and the entire history of England past Louie the 8th, and all the persecutions in Japan, Mexico, and etc etc

>>788826

I don't want to get into a "who suffered more persecution" contest, but do those examples really compare to the capacity for horror of Bolshevism?

Palamas predicted the lukewarm tendency of modern Catholicism. People in America are leaving the RCC in droves and there is a crisis of not having enough candidates to be priests. Sad, but the Vatican reaps the atheism it sows.

>>788830

Is the Seat in Antioch or Rome? St. Peter held both positions.

>>788832

>Is the Seat in Antioch or Rome? St. Peter held both positions.

St. Peter put another Bishop in his place at Antioch, and went on to perish in Rome, leaving his position empty.

If you believe that both Antioch and Rome are the same seat, then you must therefore believe that whomever holds the seat of Rome must hold the seat of Antioch, or Patriarchs may hold the seat in more than one place.

We've had this discussion before, haven't we? Your argument is flawed, nobody has ever believed that the seat of Antioch and Rome are one.

>>788832

>Palamas predicted the lukewarm tendency of modern Catholicism

If only he predicted the KGB, then he may have proved useful.

>>788822

Reminder that Church attendance in Russia is 7%. Orthodoxy isn't growing so much as you seem to think.

>>788832

All these people suffered under communism as well dude. Even frenchmen, they suffered under militant atheism as well. I didn't mention catholics dying in other countries ( such as japan ) because that wasnt the systematic massacre that happened in the countries i mentioned ( even though they were heavy persecutions as well )

>>788840

Btw i don't downplay their persecution at all, i know they suffered a lot, but catholics also suffered just as much. We're brothers in Christ and the world hates us. Nothing new.

>>788671

The original form of 150 "Rejoice Theotokos" followed by 150 Lord's Prayers is what St. Seraphim Sarov came up with. St. Seraphim Zvedinsky and Father Zosima, a spiritual child of St. Seraphim Sarov, created the other form.

For that matter stating "Let us remember" does not automatically infer thinking on the actual events of the decade. Each one also comes with something to think about in the prayer, as you stated yourself, such as praying for men, women, and children, and those who have lost their way from the Church.

For that matter, to imply Western Orthodox aren't really Orthodox, given your quotations around their name, is ridiculous.

There is not an absolute ton of info on the prayer rule, but there are 2 books on the subject on Amazon, both with the title "The Prayer Rule of Theotokos," and there is also the biography of St. Seraphim Zvezdinsky titled "You Are All In My Heart" which goes over his use of the Rule as well. However I unfortunately do not know where you could procure a copy of the latter as the main mention I've found on it has been on "Pravoslavie" which contains excerpts from it in English, but it hasn't been translated in full from its original Russian yet as far as I know.

Still, I see no reason not to trust this Rule existing or being used.

>>788833

I don't really accept that line of reasoning. Did Christ elaborate that the rock of Peter would be specifically where Peter died? God is not the author of confusion.

Let's say the rock of Peter is in fact Rome. Does that give Rome carte blanche to spout whatever heresies they wish?

If Rome is compromised as they are today, the seat must be considered vacant. And if you believe it has been vacant for 1000 years as I do, you are essentially Orthodox. RCC however pray for the current pope, they are in communion with the current pope which means they accept him perhaps not consciously but implicitly in their mass.

>>788842

>>788840

>>788835

Since WWII and Vatican II, Catholicism has declined tremendously. Not a good thing, but a product of the Vatican being compromised. It has done so under limited to no persecution, as opposed to harsh state KGB tier persecution in Russia. I'm not saying that there haven't been hardcore Catholics in history.

>>788849

>Did Christ elaborate that the rock of Peter would be specifically where Peter died?

Did He need to? He created the Apostles', and they spread and laid hands on others, and on their successors. The Early Church always kept track of whom succeeded whom, so it seems they understood that it was something to be succeeded in, and passed on.

>Let's say the rock of Peter is in fact Rome. Does that give Rome carte blanche to spout whatever heresies they wish?

The Pope is under divine duress, it's a common mistake to believe that he will be judged any better than you or I on the basis of his position in life.

>God is not the author of confusion.

I agree, and you are confused.

>If Rome is compromised as they are today, the seat must be considered vacant.

Completely confused.

>>788874

No one Apostle was more important than the others. The RCC position is that the Pope is God's supreme messenger on earth. How an ecumenist heretic could be God's supreme messenger is beyond me. But RCC doctrine has evolved with the times.

In 1441 Pope Eugene IV in Cantate Domino wrote: "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the 'eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels'; unless before death they are joined with Her." This is a clear cut statement that was affirmed by other Popes and councils up until the mid 20th century.

Now obviously I don't agree with this statement as an Orthodox (I'm not an ecumenist though) but contrast this with Francis and it becomes clear the Papacy does change dogma.

Anyway let's not get too far away from what the thread is about, although I suppose this relates to Patriarch Bartholomew's ecumenism.

>>788888

>No one Apostle was more important than the others.

18And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven

The Church is formed upon Cephas, the keys of the Kingdom are given to Cephas. The authority to bind and loose on Heaven and Earth were given to Cephas, and his seat.

I have not encountered any satisfactory response to the "authority to bind and loose on Heaven and Earth" part, which easily does away with the Protestant interpretation that the Church was built figuratively on St. Peter or his confession, or his shadow, or etc etc.

>How an ecumenist heretic could be God's supreme messenger is beyond me

How could Judas betray Christ, friend?

>This is a clear cut statement that was affirmed by other Popes and councils up until the mid 20th century.

And of course, it is all true. They are those outside the Church who have adhered to a false religion, at the expense of the true Church. There are those, however, who will be judged according to the law in their hearts, and even St. Paul (with authority of Christ) instructs us not to judge them.

>but contrast this with Francis and it becomes clear the Papacy does change dogma.

It does not.

>>788898

That passage is very open to interpretation. Christ speaks of the "church" but Orthodox interpret that as meaning the Orthodox Church of course. RCC interprets it as meaning the Papacy.

Also Peter was significant for other reasons. He denied Christ three times which is perhaps why Christ calls him a rock as a sort of inversion. What was weak is being made the rock of the church. It's a bit much though to extrapolate that the officeholder of Peter is to be some kind of dictator over the church who can never be wrong. There is no reason for the councils if the Pope can just act unilaterally. It was not easy to travel in those days to make those councils. Our present day leaders in Orthodoxy are just as bad but thankfully they cannot act unilaterally as the Pope can.

Just look up Francis's statements about Judaism and Islam. He says not only that their deity is real but that he has the same God as them. In other words, the complete opposite of the 1441 statement.

>>788844

>The original form of 150 "Rejoice Theotokos" followed by 150 Lord's Prayers is what St. Seraphim Sarov came up with. St. Seraphim Zvedinsky and Father Zosima, a spiritual child of St. Seraphim Sarov, created the other form.

>there are 2 books on the subject on Amazon, both with the title "The Prayer Rule of Theotokos," and there is also the biography of St. Seraphim Zvezdinsky titled "You Are All In My Heart" which goes over his use of the Rule as well. However I unfortunately do not know where you could procure a copy of the latter as the main mention I've found on it has been on "Pravoslavie" which contains excerpts from it in English, but it hasn't been translated in full from its original Russian yet as far as I know.

Thank you for the further explanation and sources. This sounds a lot more legit now; at least in the form of repetitions with a prayer rope in the manner of the Jesus Prayer. Nevertheless, this:

> For that matter stating "Let us remember" does not automatically infer thinking on the actual events of the decade.

……………I'm sorry, but this just comes off as blatant mental gymnastics, plain and simple. "Let us remember…. but don't actually remember!"

>>789836

Russia will be the biggest muslim country in Europe in 30 years. Plus atheism and LARPaganism runs rampant in the ethnic Russian population.

Ukrainian Orthodoxy will only grow from now on.

>>789862

I really don't care, i know that Ukraine is a shit country just like Russia. I only care about the people there and the Orthodox church and i'm happy that, in Ukraine at least, things are going better. Maybe the church can help the rest of the country to become more decent now that they're free at last.

>>789865

>I only care about the people there and the Orthodox church and i'm happy that, in Ukraine at least, things are going better.

Schism is a great sin and will only result in more degeneracy. When a people is divided it is more easily subverted by enemies.

>>789868

Indeed, enemies like NATO and the big liberal NGOs.

>>789843

Lol imagine being this indoctrinated against Russia.

>>789868

Well then it's good for Ukrainians that they're not in schism anymore. Idk how it'll work out for Russia though.

>>789872

They say so themselves

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/03/05/russia-will-be-one-third-muslim-in-15-years-chief-mufti-predicts-a64706

>Archpriest Dmitry Smirnov, an official in Russia’s Orthodox Church, agreed with Gainutdin’s forecast and predicted that “there won't be any Russians left in 2050.”

>“It’s too late,” he told the Govorit Moskva radio station when asked if the demographic trend could be reversed.

>>789876

Media tries to demoralise us with headlines such as these. I had someone try to tell me recently that Russia sends people to jail for questioning the holocaust. Totally untrue.

Influx of Muslims is happening in almost every European country in the world. Russia has really always had these tartar and central Asian Muslims anyway. Russia and Poland are averting many of the migrants especially by not enacting the welfare state policies of Western Europe. Someone really hates Russia.

>>789896

But that's the Russian media and they're reporting on the opinions of the Russian mufti and that Orthodox bishop.

I don't hate Russia at all but i hate the way that the Russian state is using my faith to promote their Imperial dreams. Have in mind that this is the first step of atheism. Tsarist Russia tried the exact same thing thus turning the people away from the faith and opening the door for the communists to take over. The same can be said for the Catholic church. The Orthodox church must always be on the side of the oppressed and not of the oppressor.

https://orthodoxsynaxis.org/2019/03/21/the-true-story-of-patriarch-bartholomews-meletian-schism/

>>790511

The problem is that there're not theological arguments against Ukrainian autocephaly so the conversation makes circles between muh CIA and muh based Putin and Russian ethnostate. Don't listen to propaganda, every European state that has an autocephalus church took it's autocephaly from Constantinople, now it was the time for Ukraine.

Personally, i hope in a future council to abolish all autocephalies except the 4 ancient Patriarchates plus Cyprus and Georgia that are also ancient churches. They caused more problems than they solved.

>>790511

>>790566

Sure this isn’t a question of theology it’s a question of jurisdiction and politics. The whole question is political so we shouldn’t run away from that.

I am arguing that even if you are the biggest Ukrainian nationalist under the sun, splitting with Moscow will only hurt Ukraine in the long run. It’s an attempt to D&C Orthodoxy. NATO will use Ukraine as proxy warriors against Russia just like Osama Bin Laden was a CIA asset.

>>790579

Ukraine didn't split away from anyone. Russia was using the church in Ukraine to russify the population, they were "blessing" the weapons killing Ukrainians and spreading propaganda. They didn't ever said one word of sympathy to Ukrainians and they just excommunicated everyone who chalenged their actions. This resulted to the majority of the population to be either in schism or to abandon the church altogether. Orthodoxy in Ukraine had become an exclusively Russian thing.

The Ecumenical Patriarch called for a synod so they could find a solution all together. Russians freaked out and stop commemorating him. That's the story. Everything else, NATO, CIA , the United Nations and the World Bank have nothing to do with the case.

>>790593

This sounds like a lot of hyperbole. Do you have evidence that Russia was taking these actions? Russia has not assisted the Eastern Ukrainian republics, there is no evidence of this. The Western Ukrainian government however is NATO backed and they are calling themselves (((new khazaria))). (((It))) is not Ukrainian at all.

Brzezinski writes in his own book there is a US liberal “imperium”. Russia is not an empire. I highly doubt Russia is Russianizing anyone.

>>790679

I’m not saying Putin is a god emperor or Russia da new imperium or any of that larpy stuff. Obviously Putins Russia has flaws. But John McCain met with the Patriarch installed in Ukraine who himself was a defector to the West. Is John McCain Orthodox? Is he Ukrainian? What’s really going on here?

On one side we have warmongers like McCain who destroyed and backed radical groups in Afghanistan and Libya and Iraq and now Ukraine and Syria. On the other side we have Russia which is not an empire and hasn’t attacked anyone.

Oh and the regime in Ukraine now are so “nationalist” that they want to join the EU.

>>790735

Where is that picture from? The Israel lobby puts out a lot of misinformation. You're going to have to cite some evidence for your claims.

Where did I say Russia can never do wrong? I explicitly conceded the opposite of that. Can you read? Or are you intentionally being dishonest?

"Hezbollah are violent terrorists" the Jew says as he guns down Palestinian children.

Anyway back to the point of the thread. The demonization campaign against Russia has been over the top madness.

>>789873

>Well then it's good for Ukrainians that they're not in schism anymore.

Obviously false, because they're in schism with the majority of the Orthodox world.

Are you getting paid for shilling? What are you some CIA/Mossad keyboard soldier?

>>785174

>>790699

HELLO CIA.

>>790892

Since they're in communion with the EP there're not in schism anymore. The only reason that some other bishop hesitate to have interactions with them for now is Russian threats and money. But they'll build their relations with others steadily over the time, they already have friendly relations with most of the autocephalus churches. The important thing is to fix their own stuff first. Orthodoxy is not a social club, it's our church and our faith, Ukrainians will be fine in a few years.

>>790679

They don't know what heretic means that's why. Then you have Russian "Orthodox" propaganda news agencies that are very popular with American who like conspiracy theories and here we are, a thread about an Orthodox church in Ukraine is flooded with talks about Israel and NATO and the freemasons.

>>791012

>durr it’s all Russian fake news! Muh Putin!

http://orthochristian.com/117882.html

>>791012

Their patriarch meets with John McCain.

>>791047

That's a serious accusation, considering John McCain has been dead for months.

>>791046

Literally first centence

>Constantinople hierarch Philaret Denisenko

lmao trash journalism at it's best. In every 10 words those people write, the 11 will be lies.

>>791012

>But that does not mean that

>>Ukraine is not a nation

>>That the church formed there must be heretical

Yes it does. Because Ukraine is not a nation it can not have an autocephalous national church, and the EP had always acknowledged that by putting them under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church. Only now, hundreds of years and a CIA infiltration later, does the EP get the idea to acknowledge an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and if you don't see anything wrong with that you are either braindead or a shill.

>>791284

I'm sorry but if the best Kirill and Putin have to offer are /pol/ memes then they won't get anywhere. Ukraine is a country and has an autocephalus church. In Orthodoxy we don't have national churches as you burgers believe but we give autocephaly to some region, meaning that they can self govern their church. This started because Constantinople fell to the Ottomans and decided to let various populations to govern their own churches.

Ukraine was always under Constantinople until Imperial Russia misunderstood Orthodoxy for their state's ideology. So they start expanding their borders and forcefully taking regions under their jurisdiction. They even abolished the Georgian church which is ironic because when the Georgians were Orthodox, Russians still worshiped Perun. Anyway now Ukrainian church is free so this talk has no meaning, lets just wish them all well.

>>791283

I know what tribe/ethnicity is dude. Nation has its distinct language. That is a good sign somebody's a nation. Not saying that there are not very close nations. Slavic nations are that. I am Slav so I know.

But just because Slovenian language is similar to Croatian that does not mean they are the same nation. Same goes for Serbian. They are quite distinct people with the right to self determination. I am not advocating hardcore separatism but you cannot force Croats and serbs to live under the same flag if they do not wish so. THe same goes for Czech/Poles/Slovakians

>after WW1 the re-unification of Germany with its Austria was forbidden by their enemies, so too do they try to prevent Russia from re-uniting with its Ukraine.

Funny that you mention that. Austria wanted to join reich so they made a referendum for that. And it was a happy reunion. With Ukraine things might get nasty since…you know the whole communism thing and the general negative attitude towards Russia. Have you considered that? Just because you say they are Russians that does nto make them so. They are close to Russians, closer than Slovaks no doubt.

Do you think Ukrainians want to be part of Russia?

>Ukraine is not a nation, it's a Russian country.

lol. They are related and closely so. But they have their own culture and own language (similar to Russian) but that does not mean they HAVE TO be lackeys of Russia. That's as saying that

>I hope you learned something new.

Your pride follows your stupidity. Go through the slavic nations from west to east, then from north to south. You will see that the tribes change gradually and it is not easy to claim "here ends one tribe there begins another one" By your logic all Eastern europe(slavic parts) could be claimed by Russia. Seriously screw that.

>>791046

I am not anti-putin retard but you did not prove

>>791284

>and if you don't see anything wrong with that you are either braindead or a shill.

So let me get this straight. You think Ukraine is not a nation therefore they are political heretics right?

Again: no theological argument all you do is "muh" CIA, they are not a nation anyway. Muh based russia. Seriously after this thread I am going to be using "orthotigger" unironically.

Explain to me why Ukrainian and Russian have a different language, different alphabet. I know they are SIMILAR but they are not the same. Believe it or not just because Russians want to dominate them ukrainians have no obligation to be part of Russia.

>Ukrainian (Borderlands) are not tribes but artificial countries created solely for political reasons in order to divide and weaken their actual tribes.

Look I agree that separatism is no good. I agree that related tribes should - ideally - live together. That;s the ideal however given the fact that they ARE different and that the history of the region is what it is..they will not consent to it. And I cannot really blame them for it. Perhaps if Russians did not treat them like shit they would like to reunify, just like Austria.

I am pro-Holy empire, no problem. This is not what it looks like.

>I'm European, born and raised Orthodox.

All right so your ignorance stems from political interests, good to know.

I get the political reasons. I do not support Azov and I do not support Ukrainian church necesarily. But I want you to give me a sound theological reasonwhy they are heretics. Just one, apart from larping about muh dividing holy russia. One good theological reason. So far you got nothing and your "arguments" seem to be full of shit at best. Sorry.

When you guys rant about muh cia what about russian church?

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-stalin-calendar/25224022.html

Their position to communism seems to be nebulous and unclear at best.

Fun fact: if you shilled Hitler this way in Russia you would get to jail pretty quickly.

>>791327

Lol. It would be funny if it was not accurate. This is why I am becoming allergic to russian larpers

>MUH HOLY EMPIRE

>SUBMIT

>>791047

not a theological argument.

>>791012

4 posts later:

0 theological points

4 political rants about non-nation/CIA/d and c

All right we can assume there is nothing besides politics in this. I understand the issue but do not call them "heretics". It is cringe and it shows that you do not care about faith but you care about politics first, then about faith. Faith is not an instrument to politics. Therefore you do not mislabel someone as heretic to fit your political purposes. If the guys is a heretic and therefore goes politically against you that's another case. In that case you will, however point out what his theological error is. This never happened in this thread with 230 posts.

>>791323

> Ukraine is a country and has an autocephalus church.

A church not recognized by Russians, Serbs, Romanians, Bulgarians, etc.

>This started because Constantinople fell to the Ottomans and decided to let various populations to govern their own churches.

>This started because Constantinople fell to the Ottomans

You're the historically uneducated burger:

< The autocephaly of the Bulgarian national church was recognized in 870, the first among the Slavs.

>until Imperial Russia misunderstood Orthodoxy for their state's ideology. So they start expanding their borders and forcefully taking regions under their jurisdiction.

Just that Ukraine as part of the Russian church was recognized by the EP.

>Anyway now Ukrainian church is free

You can repeat that as often as you like it won't be any truer.

>>791326

>Seriously after this thread I am going to be using "orthotigger" unironically.

Interesting how you care so much about the Orthodox schism yet you are not Orthodox yourself. Like I said:

<Catholic Uniate shills

>But I want you to give me a sound theological reasonwhy they are heretics.

Because they belong to the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church and cannot split from it without its consent.

>>791324

>I am not advocating hardcore separatism but you cannot force Croats and serbs to live under the same flag

Croats and Serbs are two distinct tribes. Russians and Ukrainians are not.

>and the general negative attitude towards Russia.

The anti-Russian attitude in Ukraine is SOLELY due to:

<Polish shilling before the Russo-Polish War (1654–1667)

<Jewish Communist dismemberment of the Russian Empire

<Banderists UNIATE Catholic shilling

<NATO CIA shilling

In every single case coming from enemies of the Russian nation in order to weaken the Russian nation, never coming from the (Russian) Ukrainians themselves.

>They are close to Russians, closer than Slovaks no doubt.

They are literally RUSSIANS you imbecile, they're the "KIEVAN RUS", RUSSIANS OF KIEV.

>>791609

Again, Orthodoxy is not a social club neither an ideology. The Ukrainians will build their relations with others over time, they already have good relations with most of Orthodox overseas.For now the important thing for the new church is to stand on her own feet and tend to her flock. Russian church should do the same and care more about her majority atheist, muslim and pagan population instead of trying to cause problems to the faithful of another country.

>Just that Ukraine as part of the Russian church was recognized by the EP

And then the Russians broke every promise they made to the EP and brought atheism and communism to Ukraine and created a bunch of different shismatic sects there. But now those times are over because Ukraine is back to her canonical status again.

>>791620

They have their distinct alphabet. their language. They are not literally Russians. They have no obligation to be under Russia. Furthermore Ruthenia is now part of "Ukraine" and they're in no way ukrainians, nor Slovaks. West to East, the culture and ethnos changes gradually you idiot.

>never coming from the (Russian) Ukrainians themselves.

Need a source on this…because many ukrainians actually hate russia for the whole communism thing. I know russian rev was not russian…but it succeeded and the russians did not purge bolsheviks. Nowadays you cannot even doubt the patriotic war in russia and stalin is adored.

You think they have no right to self determination….why are you so arrogant towards ukraine? If I were Ukrainian I would hate you just for claiming I cannot decide what I can do with my own soil, that I have to submit because we're similar and because muh borderlands. Screw your bullshit. I seriously doubt Ukraine wants to be part of Russia.

Yeah man…everything is part of an attempt to "weaken holy Russia". Not that now such efforts are not there…but Bolsheviks slaughtering Ukrainians prior to WWII is partly russia's fault. It is not a "western plot" to split holy russia in half by making ukrainians angry as you suggest.

>>791323

>>791796

>>791674

>>791657

Update: I spoke with a friend of mine who goes to Greek Orthodox church and he says that Patriarch Bartholomew didn't go through the traditional protocols in creating this church. I need to learn more about it myself. Now he goes to Greek church! What does that say? His church is now in schism with Moscow and even he is telling me that Bartholomew is in the wrong.

We shouldn't try to get derailed into whether Ukraine is a country or not. Our debate is about Orthodox jurisdictions.

>>791804

No church is in schism with Moscow, unless you count the new Ukainian church of course. Russia excommunicated Constantinople but nobody excommunicated Russia.

>>791785

>It's the fault of JEWISH communists, they killed millions in Russia as well.

Yes but ultimately the russians were in red army. And it is the russians now adoring their communist past as "patriotic war" and saint stalin. Give me a *** break with holy russia meme.

>Ukrainians are Russians.

Look man. If Russia leaves my country alone I do not give two s**ts about your schismatic east.

Are Ruthenians also russians? Using your logic I could sum up all slavs as russians.

They do have their own folk culture, own alphabet, own language, similar to russian, but different. I like both of them but I understand that given the circumstances they do not want to be part of russia…which is their right. Please do not come ranting about everything being fault of jewish bolsheviks…I know they played a great role but really if russians play the eternal victims all the time and then criminalize anyone doubting patriotic war, go shilling for stalin. On the top of that denying ukraine the right to self-determination…lol. Furthermore everything is western fault.

Just because they claim their "rights" over someone's country that does not make it theirs/

>>791616

>Interesting how you care so much about the Orthodox schism yet you are not Orthodox yourself.

I am not orthodox. But you guys called them heretics. That rose my interest greatly because besides politics I did not see any theological justification. You still did not provide any arguments besides that you do not consider ukraine to be a nation and CIA influence.

I take it…it's all purely political so they're not really heretics

>>791796

Funny thing is: I hear from orthos all the time that catholicism necessarily downplays nationalism and self-determination because there are not "national churches". Well here we have a small nation that indeed is used as a vanguard in politics against Russia…but they are a nation and according to their logic, they could as well have their jurisdiction (just that it wasn't in the past…it wasn't so what)

I would expect orthos to stand by their "muh national church" at least to the point to say "well they can have it…but this way it is subversive".

Imagine my shock when indoctrinated russian/american/whatever does not even view Ukrainians as sovereign people who have to take anything from russia. all right then. I know my noise ratio in this thread is high but honestly I did not expect this.

>>791785

>It's the fault of JEWISH communists, they killed millions in Russia as well.

When russia opens up discussion about communism/screwing up europe in wwii and stops painting it as a great past while in the meantime crying about them being persecuted in it…I will take such an argument seriously. Not before.

I dislike people who play the eternal victims no matter what. What happened happened and the relations between the nations are what they are thanks to russians also.

>>791804

>We shouldn't try to get derailed into whether Ukraine is a country or not. Our debate is about Orthodox jurisdictions.

I agree. But considering the orthodox church functions as several national churches in communion…it is difficult to avoid the national aspect

>>791852

Not to belittle your national identity, but we could probably divide up Russia into hundreds of historical little principalities, tribes, and nations. You could do that to France or Germany as well. What would be the point of that? Just because smaller nations exist within a nation doesn’t mean they all need their own completely autonomous jurisdictions.

Ukraine had your own church it simply was under Moscow’s jurisdiction.

>>791852

*to clarify, I’m just talking about church jurisdictions. You could have two brother nations like Muscovy and Ruthenia under one umbrella jurisdiction while having mostly independent churches and separate political states.

I think a lot of people are taking issue with the process in which this was done.

>>791804

Many people fall victims of Kremlin propaganda unfortunatelly. Especially people who don't know much about church's history and canons. Consider that Russia absolutelly doninates in "orthodox" news agencies and social media propaganda. They also don't hesitate to resost to other tactics like throwing tons of money as a way to gain influence to local churches or straight up threatening others like they did with Georgia recently. If you really want to know the truth do your own research and look things by the perspective of our faith and not politics. The actions talk for themselves.

>>791856

As I have said: I am in no way separatist who thinks the small nations should at all cases be separate. Division does no good. Personally I incline to think of Europe in the ages of Holy Roman Empire higher than the nation states. In the case in which the nations are organically included into empire and thrive in it…the empire is good. Usually the people want to be included into empire that way anyway. You can hardly expect that in this case given the history of the region. Painting it all as fault of the west or the jews seems a bit pathetic when you cannot let go of myths in your history that hurt the relationship.

What I do argue here: If there is a reason to get angry, with Ukraine it is so, the people do have the right to do their own thing. I would not bitch about ukrainian nationalism if some retard here basically did not claim ukraine has to be under russia no matter what because "muh borderlands" This is what bothers me, nothing else.

I also think Ukraine is better off as far as church jurisdiction is concerned to be united with russia - given the current circumstances. But go around attempting to solve it by claiming they are not a nation and you'll see how it backfires and actually fractures your church. The arrogance is hardly worth it.

>>788908

>RCC interprets it as meaning the Papacy.

Christ was addressing St. Peter alone, it's hard to escape this conclusion. In fact, if the Apostles weren't vouch-safed the authority later on in Matthew 18, it's pretty arguable that St. Peter alone would have the authority, but the Catholic Church does not argue that.

>He denied Christ three times which is perhaps why Christ calls him a rock as a sort of inversion.

I doubt that.

>Also Peter was significant for other reasons

significant enough to almost always (if not always) first whenever he and the apostles are mentioned in scripture; ex: "I, John, ran to the tomb and Peter came a little behind, and I stayed at the door, and Peter entered" and etc etc (paraphrase, not direct quote)

>There is no reason for the councils if the Pope can just act unilaterally.

There's plenty of reason; it's like arguing governors are useless because of the Emperor or a President of the United States.

>>788910

>Jesus Christ is the head of the Church anon.

And He gave the Keys to Cephas, this isn't arguable.

>>791849

Jewish communists found a lot of support from the local population because militant atheism, occultism and nihilism were already very popular in Russia even before the commies take over. You know why? Because they were fed up with the Tsars directly controlling the church and they've simply lost their faith to Christianity because of that.

Today the Russian people are in the exact same situation, atheism and occultism run rampant and from the people who identify as Orthodox hardly the half actually believe in God. I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before something similar to the communist revolution will happen again.

>>791961

uh, ackshully, jimmy jay dyer sez that catholics are responsible for materialism

>>791856

I somewhat agree with you but i would say that we need to abolish all autocephalies except for the 4 ancient Patriarchates. Autocephalies were a historical need that don't serve any purpose anymore. Ukraine's autocephaly is necessary for now, but if in a future council we abolish all the useless autocephalies from Europe then Russia and Ukraine can be under the same roof again. Until then lets just wish our Ukrainian brothers well being and prosperity for their new church.

>>791963

An anon posted this in another thread. Take a look at the "Moscow" part if you want to know how Russia's involvement in Vatican 2 prevented the condemnation of communism and how they messed up the Orthodox unity just for the sake of a vain dream of them becoming 3rd Rome. Ever since Peter the great abolished the Russian patriarchate in 1700 (until it was established again by Stalin), the Russian church was always nothing more but a state's puppet, be it imperial Russia, Soviet Union or Putin's regime. I just hope that real Orthodox Russians will rise up one day and take their church back. They are plenty but they don't have power now.

https://www.academia.edu/35996315/Orthodox_Observers_at_the_Second_Vatican_Council_and_Intra-Orthodox_Dynamics_-Theological_Studies

>>791961

dude you're brainwashed. It's the latins fault. I heard it on the podcast along with conspiracy that wwii was a latin plot to extinguish orthodoxy. It had nothing to do with communism…which was fine as a defense for russia but ultimately I mean it was bad because it was also a plot.

This is the mental gymnastics some people do.

Just so you people know: I do not blame russians for the rise of bolshevism. I realize who it was. But they went along with it nevertheless and now I am supposed to suck up to russians "liberating" my country while raping everyone and helping US screw up the whole continent while I listen to how "west is the worst evil". Screw this double think.

If you are going to whine about communism be consistent about it.

>>790699

>Russia supports Iran, a known sponsor of terror cells.

And the West supports the effing Saudis, which directly sponsor salafi radicalisation acorss the islamic world.

I'm part of NATO, but i'd prefer Tehran any day.

Not that it matters.

This is political crap.

>>791966

Nice to see something i posted referenced.

>Russia's involvement in Vatican 2 prevented the condemnation of communism

Actually, all eastern bishops, orthodox or uniate, urged Rome to not condemn communism, so they wouldn't get persecuted even more.

>>791966

>how Russia's involvement in Vatican 2 prevented the condemnation of communism

wut

Vatican II was in the 60's, Communism was a problem since, like, the 1910's.

>>757007

Cathodox inquirer here, the 'schism' is purely political buggery right?

>>791979

Maybe that was the case for other bishops from the eastern bloc but it's a bit far stratched to say that the Russian church was persecuted under communism in the 60's. The days of oppression were in the beggining when the communists took over but after the 40's, the communist party and the Russian church were basically the same organisation. The bishops were appointed by the Soviets and most of them kept their positions until today, like Patriarch Kirill.

Other than that i find it funny how little the narrative have changed since the bolsheviks era: the bad west that wants to hurt Holy Russia. Also the way they manipulated the other churches to not send delegations to Vatican II in the name of anti-ecumenism so they would be the only ones to attend the council and pretend to be the center of Orthodoxy. Nothing have change since the bolsheviks, same tactics, same narrative in Ukraine.

>>792167

Vatican II was supposed to condemn communism as a grave sin but the Russian church argued that they won't send delegations if they did. They manipulated all other churches in a pan-Orthodox conference to agree that all Orthodox chuches should act in unity, so if Russia didn't send delegations, nobody else could. Then after Rome agreed to not condenm communism and the Orthodox church to not send any delegations to the council, the Russians went alone kek.

>>792275

Totally

>>792275

There's the underlying issue of who exactly has spiritual motherhood over Ukraine today, and the perhaps more important underlying issue of what exactly are the Ecumenical Patriarch's prerogative and rights, but yeah this is 90% politics, and the remaining 10% are only a problem because they're used as arguments by the politics.

Not that it cannot get worse, though.

>>792284

>>792281

I know politics are inseperable from faith really, much like how the followers themselves are but still… it just feels so petty for Christ's Church to be stuck up on something like this especially in these troubling times.

>>790958

It's not only because of Moscow that the other churches are wary of embracing the new Ukrainian church. The EP's method of accepting the schismatics back into communion was very irregular - accepting back into communion people who were anathematized by another church, in spite of the protests of the already established canonical church in Ukraine, without having a council or at the very least a series of meetings with the bishops concerned so that there may be fraternal agreement before communion with the schismatics can be restored, refusing to hold such a council even after the act is done and several churches protest it, giving autocephaly to the schismatics as soon as they enter back into communion, pretending as if the spiritual influence of Russia over Ukraine for so long could just be swept under the rug even if Ukraine is Constantinople's daughter canonically… And when this is put into the perspective of what the EP said about his primacy back in August or so, the other churches have good reasons to worry about Constantinople's series of actions since then, regardless of "Russian threats and money".

For instance, the church of Albania's concerns are not about Russia's claims but about the status of the ordination of the bishops of the new Ukrainian church while they were in schism, as well as the EP's refusal to hold a pan-Orthodox council to solve this fraternally.

>>792286

Especially for the Russian church it's 100% politics since somewhere in the 17th century when Peter the great abolished the Patriarchate. Ever since then, the Russian church is controlled by the state, be it Tsars, bolsheviks or now Putin. It was also around the 17th century that the concept of 3rd Rome was created so ever since then every Tsar and Soviet dictator fancied himself as some kind of Byzantine emperor and Orthodoxy as his personal ideology. A bad stain in the Orthodox church but have in mind that Russia is not representative for all Orthodoxy.

>>792286

You have two major points of influence in the Church - Constantinople who is canonically the primate, and Russia who is practically the biggest and most influential church. It's lamentable but not surprising that they would clash whenever the occasion shows itself.

It's rather similar to the relationship between Rome (the canonical primate) and Constantinople (the largest and most influential church) between the 4th and 11th centuries. Although today, compared to the Orthodox Church of Rome, Constantinople is much smaller than the biggest church and much more desperate to have its canonical authority recognized.

>>792289

>The EP's method of accepting the schismatics back into communion was very irregular

Happened countless of times in church's history with Bulgaria, Greece, ROCOR and every other church that was consedered schismatic and was accepted back later on

> in spite of the protests of the already established canonical church in Ukraine

That church had 15% of the Ukrainian population that was also the % of the Russian diaspora in Ukraine. What about the Ukrainians?

>without having a council

They had a council but the Russian church in Ukraine didn't attend and they never will

>refusing to hold such a council even after the act is done

We had another pan-Orthodox council that took 100 years to prepare and the Russians also didn't show up in the last minute. Now in another 100 years maybe there'll be another one, lets see if they show up this time

>pretending as if the spiritual influence of Russia over Ukraine for so long could just be swept under the rug

Seriously what was the fruits of the spiritual influence of Russia in Ukraine? 10 different schismatic churches and 40% of the population excommunicated? In 50 years they'll be no Orthodoxy in Ukraine if EP didn't take action

>the church of Albania's concerns are not about Russia's claims but about the status of the ordination of the bishops of the new Ukrainian church while they were in schism, as well as the EP's refusal to hold a pan-Orthodox council to solve this fraternally

That's maybe the only thing that can be said but as i said already, stuff like that happened many times in the church. Russia had excommunicated ROCOR but they restore the communion by just signing a document in 2007, no re-ordination, not anything. The same with many other churches that used to be in schism for whatever reason. Russia will never attend any council and they have proved that. Also this stuff take time, we have to see how the new Ukrainian church will go. They need time to stand on their feet first and then we can hold a council. But you and me will probably not be alive by then.

>>792281

>but it's a bit far stratched to say that the Russian church was persecuted under communism in the 60's. The days of oppression were in the beggining when the communists took over but after the 40's, the communist party and the Russian church were basically the same organisation.

No

>The bishops were appointed by the Soviets and most of them kept their positions until today, like Patriarch Kirill.

It's basically the same thing the Pope is doing in China and the Gulf States.

A sort of semi-captivity, in which not pissing them off, and downplaying their human rights abuses, while they attempt to increase their international standing, so they don't ban you outright, and accepting their appointed bishops, is the more prudent course of action.

Disgraceful?

Maybe, but hard times.

>>792296

>Happened countless of times in church's history with Bulgaria, Greece, ROCOR and every other church that was consedered schismatic and was accepted back later on

But accepted back by a different church than the one that kicked them out, though? Not really. A bishop doesn't have the authority to lift an anathema imposed by another bishop. And I know and even respect that the EP has been trying to strengthen his authority, in light of how we're growing to better understand the role of the Pope when he was still the primate, but even the Orthodox Pope didn't have the authority to accept back into communion someone he didn't himself anathematize - and the few times he tried, he got chewed out by the bishops who had anathematized the person he was welcoming back into communion.

>That church had 15% of the Ukrainian population that was also the % of the Russian diaspora in Ukraine. What about the Ukrainians?

What does that have to do with what I said? You don't take action in a region while disregarding the desires of the canonical church established there, end of story.

>We had another pan-Orthodox council that took 100 years to prepare and the Russians also didn't show up in the last minute. Now in another 100 years maybe there'll be another one, lets see if they show up this time

It was scummy of Russia to not attend the council of 2016 but they have no reason to not attend a council that is directly about the Ukrainian issue.

Also, it took so long for the council to be prepared because the 20th century was a shitshow in the Orthodox world. A new council (or it could even be considered a continuation of the council of 2016, if everyone attends, so that the council of 2016 can be given some recognized authority and not be considered a complete joke) could very well be put together in the near future if we wanted to, and that is also the opinion of the many hierarchs who have called for such a council to happen.

>Seriously what was the fruits of the spiritual influence of Russia in Ukraine? 10 different schismatic churches and 40% of the population excommunicated? In 50 years they'll be no Orthodoxy in Ukraine if EP didn't take action

I don't disagree with you. That a large chunk of the Ukrainian Orthodox world wasn't even canonical should show that Russia has been a very lazy spiritual mother. But to say "well according to the canons Ukraine is actually under us and we only lended theme to you temporarily so it's like that never happened" is not the way to go about it.

>That's maybe the only thing that can be said but as i said already, stuff like that happened many times in the church. Russia had excommunicated ROCOR but they restore the communion by just signing a document in 2007, no re-ordination, not anything. The same with many other churches that used to be in schism for whatever reason. Russia will never attend any council and they have proved that. Also this stuff take time, we have to see how the new Ukrainian church will go. They need time to stand on their feet first and then we can hold a council. But you and me will probably not be alive by then.

ROCOR was still in communion with Jerusalem, was it not? And it was received back by the same church that told it to piss off. It's really not the same situation.

I believe the EP is doing absolutely the right things, but with the worst approach possible, especially for the chief bishop of the Church. Of course the situation in Ukraine is messy and needs to be solved ASAP. But brute forcing your way into disputed territory and introducing a dialogue only afterward is not the way to go about it. Likewise, of course it is the right thing to do to abolish the Paris Exarchate, it's not normal to have two overlapping dioceses under the EP. But holding the synaxis that makes this decision without inviting Mgr Jean de Charioupolis, and only informing him afterward that his archdiocese is disbanded and the parishes under him are under Greek bishops now, is not the way to go about it. Unity comes from fraternal love and mutual submission, not brute forcing your way through in an anti-conciliar way just because you're the head honcho of the Church.

This thread turned into Communism/schmism/VII/putin/CIA rants while prots watch. kek.

>>792286

I feel the same. Mainly pride on both sides prevents the re-unification. Pride and political interests,…..not politics as such.

>Disgraceful?\

>M\aybe, but hard times.

Sadly this is the state of both Orthodox and Catholic church today. We must realize that simply larping about which church now seems to be "more based" will not change our churches being subverted.

Hard times.

However what is required of us…as of few still standing among the ruins…is that we stand. I think thre will be more of us than we currently tend to think.

>>791954

I agree, there's no point getting derailed into Ukraine vs. Russia mudslinging or rehashing who was the biggest victim of communism. That's the one aspect of nationalism that can be cringey when it becomes a big victim contest.

Sure, Ukraine should be independent. But this NATO globalist stuff is a bit worrying, that's all I'm saying.

I just hope the Ukraine and Russia can be reconciled.

>>791963

>>791955

What does this thread have to do with East/West schism? You're way off topic.

RCC doctrine is evolved over the ages. Just look up Unum Sanctam.

>>792284

On this issue, a lot of Western media tries to portray Bartholemew as a sort of pope for Orthodoxy when thats not how bishops are equals in Orthodoxy.

>>792299

>But accepted back by a different church than the one that kicked them out, though? Not really. A bishop doesn't have the authority to lift an anathema imposed by another bishop.

I don't know what happens in a situation like that, but isn't the job of the EP to hear the complains of the bishops and acting accordingly? And even if a bishop feels that was treated unjustly by his Patriarch can take his case to the EP instead? Filaret wasn't excommunicated for dogmatic reasons anyway, but because he asked the Russian Patriarch for autocephaly. Wanting to be able to manage your own church in your country is not a grave sin. Cutting off the Eucharistic communion for political reasons is though.

>What does that have to do with what I said? You don't take action in a region while disregarding the desires of the canonical church established there, end of story.

I just show that the Russian church in Ukraine was a thing for the Russian diaspora in Ukraine only, nobody cared for the Ukrainian people. The Russian jurisdiction in Ukraine wasn't established in a very canonical way in the first place. The Ecumenical Patriarch in 1686 indeed permitted the Russian Patriarch to ordain the metropolitan of Kyiv, but under the strict rule that the metropolitan will commemorate the EP as his head and first in the diptychs (meaning that Ukraine was still under the jurisdiction of the EP). That rule was of course ignored by the Russian Patriarch and when the Russian empire expanded her borders, they just absorbed Ukraine in their jurisdiction with the known results. But the church's jurisdiction doesn't work like that. If, say, Romania conquers Turkey, Greece and Bulgaria tomorrow that doesn't mean that all of them are under Romania's jurisdiction now.

>It was scummy of Russia to not attend the council of 2016 but they have no reason to not attend a council that is directly about the Ukrainian issue.

I doubt that they would attend it because they don't have any canonical arguments against Ukraine. In any case some time will have to pass so that the Ukrainian church will be able to stand to her feet. But since they were given the tomos anyway thing are hard to change now, Russia could voice her objections either in the 2016 synod, or in the recent pan-Ukrainian synod. A future synod will be for other, more important things imo.

>But to say "well according to the canons Ukraine is actually under us and we only lended theme to you temporarily so it's like that never happened" is not the way to go about it.

But they provided a ton of documents, canon laws, historical letters and theological papers that prove it though. What were Russia's counter arguments? A bunch of kiddie articles full of name calling, accompanied with photoshop pictures of Bartholomew with horns and masonic symbols? The EP intervention in Ukraine was a last resort after years of Russia ignoring everyone and especially after 2014 where thing have gotten wild over there

>ROCOR was still in communion with Jerusalem, was it not? And it was received back by the same church that told it to piss off. It's really not the same situation.

I only know that ROCOR was in communion with the Serbian church while being excommunicated and anathematised by Moscow. Something that the Serbian Patriarch pretends to ignore now. And again, they were excommunicated for political reasons and accepted back for political reasons again. Moscow argues that Epiphanius in Ukraine is now schismatic because he wasn't re-ordinated and he didn't repent from his grave sin of not accepting Putin as his god and savior. But ROCOR was also accepted by Russia without any re-ordinations or "repentance". And saying that Ukrainians could only be accepted back into communion with the Orthodox church through Russia is practically condemning them forever in schism or forceful Russification.

Did the UA church really gain autocephaly? Or was it just put under the authority of Bartholomew ?

I didn't quite understand the issue myself as i thought it would be granted independence but after seeing that the Tomos, it mentions no such thing, but rather some vague mention of autonomy. Autonomy under the Patriarchy of Constantinople then?

I'm confused

>>793044

>Autonomy as in it has it's own Patriarch that is equal to Bartholomew

But Bart can't just give out autocephalies like that. It doesn't have any basis because the church wasn't even under his own jurisdiction to begin with, he's not some sort of Pope.

>>793050

Jej

>According to the Statute of the OCU adopted at the 2018 unification council, "Orthodox Christians of Ukrainian provenance" shall be forthwith subject to the jurisdiction of the diocesan bishops of the Ecumenical Patriarchate (Article 4 of the Statute).[14][15]

Basically they traded one master for another and full on autocephaly won't happen because it won't be ratified by the other patriarchs which are in the pocket of Russia

Why not call for a council? Has one already been called for, but just not sticking?

>>792427

>I don't know what happens in a situation like that, but isn't the job of the EP to hear the complains of the bishops and acting accordingly? And even if a bishop feels that was treated unjustly by his Patriarch can take his case to the EP instead? Filaret wasn't excommunicated for dogmatic reasons anyway, but because he asked the Russian Patriarch for autocephaly. Wanting to be able to manage your own church in your country is not a grave sin. Cutting off the Eucharistic communion for political reasons is though.

Even back when it was Orthodox, the Sardican privilege of Rome never took the form of the Pope of Rome overriding the authority of another bishop or the synod of anothe church. What his role of arbiter consisted of, and what the EP's role of arbiter consists of today, is to demand a retrial if someone who's not under his jurisdiction claims to have been treated unfairly. The Pope (then)/EP (now) may even oversee this trial closely. But there is no such thing as a one-sided authority here.

Filaret can indeed take his case to the EP if he feels he was treated unfairly. However the EP cannot, on his own, re-instate him, considering he's not the one who anathematized him. And it doesn't matter whether a bishop anathematizes someone because this someone believes Jesus was only a prophet, or because this someone pissed in the bishop's cornflakes - if an anathema is recognized by the rest of the Church, it is authoritative, and Filaret's deposition and anathematization was recognized even by the EP.

>Wanting to be able to manage your own church in your country is not a grave sin.

Are you really going to argue that Filaret's deposition was unjust and he did nothing wrong? Are you being paid by someone? I don't think anyone claims such a thing, not even the Phanar's bishops.

>Cutting off the Eucharistic communion for political reasons is though.

I agree.

>>792427

>The Russian jurisdiction in Ukraine wasn't established in a very canonical way in the first place. The Ecumenical Patriarch in 1686 indeed permitted the Russian Patriarch to ordain the metropolitan of Kyiv, but under the strict rule that the metropolitan will commemorate the EP as his head and first in the diptychs (meaning that Ukraine was still under the jurisdiction of the EP). That rule was of course ignored by the Russian Patriarch and when the Russian empire expanded her borders, they just absorbed Ukraine in their jurisdiction with the known results. But the church's jurisdiction doesn't work like that. If, say, Romania conquers Turkey, Greece and Bulgaria tomorrow that doesn't mean that all of them are under Romania's jurisdiction now.

Yes, yes, I know. But whether Russia's spiritual influence over Ukraine happened because of canonical reasons or not, it happened, and you can't pretend this history did not happen or is without consequences simply because "but the canons say". The official recognition of Constantinople's authority over Ukraine, and subsequent granting the autocephaly of, should have been done after fraternal and peaceful agreement between the EP and the Patriarch of Moscow. One-sided authoritarian action has never worked in favor of sobornost.

>But they provided a ton of documents, canon laws, historical letters and theological papers that prove it though.

If your argument really rests on "b-but the canons say", you need to stop living in documents and live a little more in real life instead. Yes, Ukraine is and always has been under the canonical authority of Constantinople. It does not change that Moscow closely oversaw Ukraine for a long time, and so they shouldn't be excluded from this simply because "muh canons". Whether this happened canonically or not, Moscow has come to have a certain share of spiritual motherhood over Ukraine, and it is irresponsible to pretend this isn't true or important when deciding to grant Ukraine autocephaly.

>I only know that ROCOR was in communion with the Serbian church while being excommunicated and anathematised by Moscow. Something that the Serbian Patriarch pretends to ignore now. And again, they were excommunicated for political reasons and accepted back for political reasons again. Moscow argues that Epiphanius in Ukraine is now schismatic because he wasn't re-ordinated and he didn't repent from his grave sin of not accepting Putin as his god and savior. But ROCOR was also accepted by Russia without any re-ordinations or "repentance". And saying that Ukrainians could only be accepted back into communion with the Orthodox church through Russia is practically condemning them forever in schism or forceful Russification.

I do not believe that the schismatics could or should've been brought back into communion through Russia. I agree with you that Russia has been doing a rather terrible job at this whole "spiritual motherhood" thing (not that it's entirely their fault, their situation in the 20th century was very bizarre and sad, you don't get over this within 3 decades), although you can keep your "muh Putin" polemics to yourself. But it does not matter why so-and-so was anathematized, if this anathema was recognized by the rest of the Orthodox world; and no bishop has the authority to override another bishop's.

>>794008

Tons of bishops have called for a pan-Orthodox council. It could even be considered a continuation of the council of 2016, to make the EP happy. But the EP has rejected this. His response to the churches that didn't attend the council of 2016 has basically been "you guys didn't show up back then, so why should I play fair too?" and his response to the churches that did attend the council of 2016 has basically been "that council was a disaster, no reason to expect this one won't be; also please stop doubting my authority pls ok thanks". I am heavily paraphrasing so take it with a grain of salt.

>>793035

They're basically autocephalous (they ordain their own bishops, they're autonomous, they do what they want)… but will have the EP breathing on their neck the whole time. The EP reserves himself the right to single-handedly change the Ukrainian church's decisions if he dislikes them, although they are autocephalous otherwise and don't need to go to him to get their bishops confirmed for instance.

This whole thing is stupid anyway. Until there is an 8th Ecumenical Council confirming them, all these "autocephalies" granted by Constantinople are only nominal, one might even say economical. Strictly speaking, there are still only a few autocephalous churches/patriarchates: Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria (ratified at Nicea I), Constantinople and Jerusalem (ratified at Constantinople I), Cyprus (ratified at Ephesus). All autocephalies or removal thereof since then have happened after Nicea II, and have been the common work of local councils and primates, but have not been ratified universally and finally by an Ecumenical Council. In that sense, not even Rome's falling away from the Church has been officially and universally ratified, even though no one doubts it and anathemas have been thrown both ways.

We really need to do some spring cleaning and have a proper ecumenical council to affirm the doctrinal defintions of the many local councils since Nicea II and to affirm the pastoral and canonical decisions since then as well. With the Ottoman Empire gone, as well as the communist nightmare of the 20th century being done with, it's really about time.

>>794017

>We really need to do some spring cleaning and have a proper ecumenical council to affirm the doctrinal defintions of the many local councils since Nicea II and to affirm the pastoral and canonical decisions since then as well. With the Ottoman Empire gone, as well as the communist nightmare of the 20th century being done with, it's really about time.

You won't have an ecumenical council, ironically, for ecumenical reasons:

a)EC's traditionally need Rome's aproval. Yes, the Ecumenical See is our protos, and has the power to do so, but it's not the same;

b)We have a certain continuity with the rest of Christendom through these 7, and certain Popes have given hints they would consider these first 7 the true ecumenical councils, and that the post-Schism ones lack a certain catholicity. Proclaiming an eight would complicate things IMMENSELY with Rome and the Oriental Churches;

c)EC's are usually convoked for theological reasons, when we have a doctrinal crisis.

Ukraine and co is not a theological thing, but an administrative one;

Nah, i'm pretty sure there will be a huge, 8th Council, but it will be to unscrew the administrative and theological issues of all of Apostolic Christendom;

>>794081

>a)EC's traditionally need Rome's aproval. Yes, the Ecumenical See is our protos, and has the power to do so, but it's not the same;

But we don't need the See of Rome to function as the Church. Although, if the Pope or his legates are invited to observe, and if he even says the council was doctrinally orthodox some time later, it would be a giant step forward for ecumenicity. Rome had a council recently - why can't we do the same?

>b)We have a certain continuity with the rest of Christendom through these 7, and certain Popes have given hints they would consider these first 7 the true ecumenical councils, and that the post-Schism ones lack a certain catholicity. Proclaiming an eight would complicate things IMMENSELY with Rome and the Oriental Churches;

They have called post-schism Catholic councils "general councils held in the West" rather than "ecumenical councils" but have also insisted that they must be obeyed by all, so it doesn't mean much.

Also, Rome has left the Church 1000-600 years ago (depending on one's standard), and the Monophysites have left the Church 1600 years ago. We can't wait for them forever.

>c)EC's are usually convoked for theological reasons, when we have a doctrinal crisis.

We could ratify those councils and documents that have been recognized as orthodox since the schism, notably those listed by Met. Kallistos Ware:

- The Encyclical Letter of St Photius (867)

- The First Letter of Michael Cerularius to Peter of Antioch (1054)

- The decisions of the Councils of Constantinople in 1341 and 1351 on the Hesychast Controversy

- The Encyclical Letter of St Mark of Ephesus (1440-1)

- The Confession of Faith by Gennadius, Patriarch of Constantinople (1455-6)

- The Replies of Jeremias II to the Lutherans (1573-81)

- The Confession of Faith by Metrophanes Kritopoulos (1625)

- The revised form of the Orthodox Confession by Peter of Moghila, ratified by the Council of Jerusalem (1672)

- The Answers of the Orthodox Patriarchs to the Non-Jurors (1718, 1723)

- The Reply of the Orthodox Patriarchs to Pope Pius IX (1848)

- The Reply of the Synod of Constantinople to Pope Leo XIII (1895)

- The Encyclical Letters by the Patriarchate of Constantinople on Christian unity and on the "Ecumenical Movement" (1920, 1952)

On top of these, there are also modern doctrinal issues that should be ratified, regarding the nature of who Jesus Christ is (which is what the 7 councils were concerned with):

- Nicea I and Constantinople I precised that there are 2 types of relations in the Trinity: essential and personal. We should precise that there is a third: energetic (which would be a pretty necessary thing to precise if we recognize the ecumenical authority of the Hesychast councils, and Palamas as a Church Father)

- Since the schism, the Church of Rome has made dogmatic definitions about the nature of the eternal relationship between the Son and the Holy Spirit, as well as the relationship between primacy, collegiality, and the ecumenical councils. We should do the same. In particular, Florence made an effort to interpret the Greek fathers' pneumatology, but it does so erroneously, by saying that they would agree the Son is cause of the Holy Spirit. So, likewise, we should give a formal and definitive intepretation of what the Latin fathers mean when they say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son.

- Like Rome did, we should give an ecumenical definiton of which books are inspired, and whether it can be said that there is a "secondary" quality to the deuterocanonical books, even as they are inspired. I say this because you have 4 Maccabees in the Greek Bible's appendix, and 2 Esdras in the Russian Bible's appendix, and no one is really sure whether they are inspired or simply there for the sake of information.

- And of course we need to deal with all the administrative stuff that's been done since the 7th council. Recognize or take away autocephalies. Recognize that the Church of Rome is not canonical anymore, and explain what that means for us. And so on.

Remember also that the Great and Holy Council was going to be, if not the 8th ecumenical council, at least the beginning of such a thing. But it sunk because the methodology wasn't right (already drafting and agreeing on all the documents before the actual council) and several churches boycotted it anyway. It's not like the desire to hold an 8th council isn't there, and we don't need to wait for something prophetic to happen because of the significance of the number 8th.

>>794580

Oh, also, ending the schism with the Oriental Orthodox at this 8th council would be ideal.

Bumpimg for updates on the Constantinople-Moscow schism drama.

>>804771

Not much. Ukrainian church continues to grow and Russia toned down with the aggressive tones of the first days. Meanwhile the primates of the ancient Patriarchates, minus Constantinople, have met with the Archbishop of Cyprus and decided to back him up in the peace initiative he've taken to stop the fighting between Russia and Constantinople. The good news is that after that meeting of the Patriarchs, Antioch and Jerusalem primates talked in private and decided to work on a solution regarding their tensions between them.

https://www.romfea.news/message-of-unity-from-the-orthodox-primates-of-the-middle-east/

>>788822

lol you're pathetic

I'm 99% sure you're a western convert to Orthodoxy (just like all the other orthos on this board) and yet you call Catholics LARPers.

>muh faithful orthodox

>Despite a significant reduction in the abortion to birth ratio since the mid-1990s, the countries of the former Soviet Union maintain the highest rate of abortions in the world. In 2001, 1.31 million children were born in Russia, while 2.11 million abortions were performed.[30] In 2005, 1.6 million abortions were registered in Russia;[4] 20% of these involved girls under the age of 18.[31] Official statistics put the number at 989,000 in 2011.[4]

>As of 2010, the abortion rate was 37.4 abortions per 1000 women aged 15–44 years, the highest of any country reported in UN data.[2]

>Russian church attendance is 7%

>Greek church attendance is 16%

>Ukrainian church attendance is 13%

I'm sorry to say but you're completely delusional. The Orthodox Church IS DYING. You spend all your time on the internet, hanging out with other ortho converts like yourself, and think "look at all these people who converted to orthodoxy! the church is growing!" when in the real world, its not true, you people come to the internet to congregate because in the real world you won't find others like you. Its the same with sedevacantists. They all just hang around on the internet and think their movement is bigger than it really is.

Pope Francis is the legitimate Bishop of Rome, he is in the Seat of St. Peter (which isn't Antioch, by the way), he is the head of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church founded by Our Lord, and he has legitimate authority over all of Christendom.

Submit to Rome.

>>804820

Everything in this post is true and troubling except that Francis is a heretic and demonstrates the arrogance of Papal infallibility. Once Catholics admit that the Pope can be wrong and doctrine doesn't progress, they will be in communion with the Orthodox.

>>794580

John said without the Son nothing was not made that was made. Was the Spirit made?

>>804827

>papal infallibility

you don't understand this. the Pope is only infallible when he's speaking ex cathedra, from the seat of St. Peter. When Pope Francis says something off-beat, he's saying it just on his own, not ex cathedra.

>the Pope can be wrong

Only when he isn't speaking ex cathedra

>doctrine doesn't progress

Ah yes, because the apostles were hesychasts and taught energy-essence distinction.

>>804820

>Submit to Rome.

If we don't, what are you going to do about it? Honestly, just curious.

I never heard anyone call a Catholic a LARPer btw. It's pretty normal actually. Practically my whole city is Catholic.

>>804852

Someone who's using phrases like "submit to Rome" is a de facto LARPer. Not even his Pope dare to talk like that anymore kek.

>>804852

If you don't, I'll pray for the conversion of your soul, which is in a state of mortal sin.

And the person I was replying to literally called the Catholic he was replying to a LARPer

>>804820

What I find is that former atheists looking to "get into" religion completely overlook the community/living your faith aspect and want to find a "purist" or "authentic" denomination because they regard whatever is close to them/common as too compromised.

There’s a lot of misinformation being spread on this forum. I’m not looking to get bogged down with shills, but the Serbian and Romanian churches oppose Bartholemew on this issue. Just go talk to priests from these churches and they’ll say the same thing. The new church they’ve set up is basically an ultranationalist political thing, whatever you think of Moscow.

>>805629

No they don't. Only Serbia oppose it but for reasons unrelated to the church. But even though their synod spoke against the Ukrainians, they din't follow Russia on their path of schism. Still many Serbian bishops support Ukrainians on this regardless of their synod's decisions.

https://bigorski.org.mk/en/reports/world-news/bishop-maxim-of-soc-bartholomew-took-upon-himself-the-cross-of-a-historical-decision/

Romanian synod

https://basilica.ro/en/holy-synod-examines-ukrainian-ecclesiastical-issue-at-first-2019-working-session/

I guess the bogomilists we're right after all, huh anons :^)?

>>805692

Aren't they in a similar situation with N. Macedonia?

>>805920

Not really. It would be more similar if N.Macedonia was under the jurisdiction of Greece and the Greek state was using the Church for propaganda, trying to Hellenize their country, saying that the population don't exist and that they're actually Greeks in denial and also if the Greek army had invaded NM recently and was occupying part of the country with the Greek church blessing the attack and the weapons who kill their familes, all in the name of some Holy Greece scenario. Bogomils were gnostic and heretic idk what you meant with that.

>>805991

>blessing the attack and the weapons

Was that real? I understand doing that when confronting non-christians, but doing it to others christians? I really wanna know what the priesthood thinks about this conflict when you confront them with the reality that they're killing brothers and sisters of the faith for political reasons.

>Bogomils were gnostic and heretic idk what you meant with that.

I was making a joke. Gnosdicks tend to mock organized religion saying it's "a tool used to control the masses" and all that tripe.

>>806028

Actually it's not ok even for non Christians but even more for your Orthodox brothers who also happen to be your flock. Orthodoxy was dying in Ukraine, a traditionaly pious Orthodox country, exactly for that reason. People are very happy with their independence.

Some minor updates updates. A bishop from the Greek Orthodox church was consecrated to the autocephalus Ukrainian church as biship of Olbia. Practically this is a low key welcoming by the Greeks to the Ukrainian Orthodox church. The majority of the Orthodox world is perfectly fine with Ukrainians having their autocephalus church but don't want to stir things up with Russia right now so probably their acceptance will come gradually like that.

https://www.facebook.com/orthodox.christianity/posts/3278764812141012

I'm especially linking the Kremlin's religious media outlet in the west so people can see by themselves the poor spiritual state of the people who follow what we call Russian "Orthodoxy"

>>810267

Be careful comrade don't make the Russiaboo angry

comic relief

http://orthochristian.com/121559.html

>>791064

he's a leftie kike parasite. GOD I hope he stops being the president ASAP

>>823593

I doubt that