/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Liberal ones, no(episcopal,methodist, presbyterianusa)

Traditional ones, yes(Orthodox Presbyterian, Lutheran Missouri Synod)

>>739960

Also, most evangelicals don't believe he's the anti-christ.

>>739960

But it's been like 501 years since they've been saying this and nothing yet… Why do they still cling to it?

Watch it OP, the Papist mods may ban you.

>>739963

Well lets look at their position.

The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist. The historic view of LCMS on the Antichrist is summarized as follows by the Synod's Theological Commission:

The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (Matt. 24:5, 23-24; Mark 13:6, 21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18, 22, 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ's Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.

However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic "Anti-Christ" (Dan. 7:8, 11, 20-21, 24-25, 11:36-45; 2 Thess. 2; 1 John 2:18, 4:3; Rev. 17-18) … Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions' identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above.

It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person's heart.

Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise.

In a footnote, the Commission adds:

To the extent that the papacy continues to claim as official dogma the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent which expressly anathematizes, for instance, the doctrine "that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that trust alone by which we are justified," the judgment of the Lutheran Confessional writings that the papacy is the Antichrist holds. At the same time, of course, we must recognize the possibility, under God's guidance, that contemporary discussions and statements (e.g., 1983 U.S. Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue statement on "Justification by Faith") could lead to a revision of the Roman Catholic position regarding Tridentine dogma.

>>739965

As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs/doctrine/brief-statement-of-lcms-doctrinal-position

>>739959

Protestants, as I'm sure you know, aren't a massive bloc that all think the same thing - I personally don't know any churches that teach that the Pope is the Antichrist, although I have heard such stuff from the mouths of some individual Protestants, although mostly non-practicing ones, who have a visceral ingrained hatred for the Catholic church - Catholic/Protestant tensions in my area have been very high for centuries and it's all wrapped up in the social politics here, so some "Protestants" (read: atheists with historically Protestant family) might use such terms as a way to insult Catholics in the pub or at a football match, and Catholics will respond in a like manner.

You're not likely to ever hear it in a church around here because actual practicing Prots don't care about the Pope - most would think of him the same way we think of Mohamed, or the way Jews think of Jesus - that is to say, we don't. If you asked I reckon most would say they don't accept the authority of the Pope and leave it at that. Pope = Antichrist is not necessary or even really important in Protestantism

Drop the definite article and you get the Lutheran position, as I understand it.

And let me turn that around: Can a practicing Christian affirm Unam Sanctam?

>>739974

If you drop the definite article all you actually get is a grammatically incorrect sentence

>>739975

No

>>739972

Northern Ireland?

>>739980

>Do Protestants still unironically believe the Pope is antichrist?

This is not grammatically incorrect, anti-Christ is different from *the Antichrist*

>>739983

Heavily Northern-Irish-descendant-populated area of Scotland

>>739959

I am Lutheran (Missouri Synod). Our position does not label any particular Pope as “the Antichrist” who may come at end times. The (small “a”) term “antichrist” can be thought of as referring to one who acts antithetical to Christ’s teachings.

Hence some corrupt Popes would be considered antichrists, while good Popes are thought well of (like John Paul II).

>>739959

"The"?

He is "an" antichrist. Do you even know what an antichrist is?

>read your bible you illiterate papist

>>740158

>Our position does not label any particular Pope as “the Antichrist” who may come at end times. The (small “a”) term “antichrist” can be thought of as referring to one who acts antithetical to Christ’s teachings.

See >>739965 and >>739967

>good Popes are thought well of (like John Paul II)

So this is the power of modernism

>>740232

The Reformed and Lutheran traditions have consistently taught that the pope (not in his person, but according to his office) is 'the' Antichrist. Were he merely to be antichrist, this would make him no worse than his priests, each of whom stands against Christ.

The good ones do

Papistism is the western vessel of the antichrist while Islam is the head of the global antichristian government.

Most Evengelicals who are “prophecywise” aka ultraZionist usually say it’s the scary anti Israel Muslim leader of the hour or Russia/China/North Korea (still holding out for communism to be a threat again). Most imply that the Catholic Church will at least be an assistant to the antichrist though.

>>750912

show us an evangelical teaching this

Evangelicals point at everyone except the Jews.

>>750931

Amen to that. Of course, why would they when that’s whose funding their entire movement?

>>750912

>Implying Muslims aren’t Israel’s useful idiots

>>750930

Anon, to my knowledge the Orthodox teaching on the AC is that he will be a homosexual jew. An Islamic AC is a funny concept, but let's be real here - they aren't the sharpest cooks in the kitchen. Jews however…

Well, let's just say that's a lot more plausible.

>>740288

Ouch, yeah this hurt. Protestantism will be in the dust bin soon and we high church anglicans will be dust. I have no idea what to do as I've tried to join Rome and cannot do it and my wife and I literally cannot sit through a Ortho liturgy

>>754155

>I have no idea what to do as I've tried to join Rome and cannot do it

Why? Most of Britain has been saturated with anti-catholicism for the last 500 years, it might have more to do with that than anything else.

>>754158

But the ones pro-Catholicism are either pedo cultist romans or LBGT women priests in CofE. It's all so sad.

My wife and I feel lost.

>>739959

Well, Pope St Gregory the Great said: "I say it without the least hesitation, whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others."

>>754173

>pedo cultist romans

What does this even mean? You're telling me there's no been bout of homosexuality among the clergy in the Anglican Church? Or never has been? Christ never promised that we would not suffer the presence of evil men, Christ never threw out Judas either. Yet, they will be sifted in the end.

>>754180

Anglicanism has been swept away by homosexuals and nonbelievers, so no… I'm not saying Anglicanism is perfect.

My concerns with Rome are far more than gay clergy and pedo priests/bishops

>>754175

Gregory also said:

"The Apostolic See is, by the ordering of God, set over all Churches."http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360203030.htm

"As to what they say about the Church of Constantinople, who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See, as both the most pious lord the emperor and our brother the bishop of that city continually acknowledge? Yet, if this or any other Church has anything that is good, I am prepared in what is good to imitate even my inferiors, while prohibiting them from things unlawful."http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360205041.htm

It is the See of Peter "to whom was committed the care and primacy of the whole Church"; as such it is the caput fidei. Gregory asserted that "the See of Constantinople is subject to the Apostolic See," and that there was no bishop who was not subject to the See of Rome, "which is set over all the churches." http://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/gregory-great-i-st-pope

"Through the observance of such custom both the Apostolic See may retain the power belonging to it, and at the same time may not diminish the rights which it has conceded to others."(http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360203030.htm)

"If any of the four patriarchs had done such a thing," he wrote again to a bishop who had disobeyed his orders [ii:50], "such contumacy could not have been passed over without the gravest scandal."http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/num7.htm

>>739959

>Do Protestants still believe the Pope is the Antichrist?

Nope!

>>739960

Not all Methodists are "liberal". Best not to lump everyone into a single batch, ya know?