/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

We had a thread recently about the "problem of evil", and I reaized from that thread that it's very important to clarify what is meant by good and evil. Because the problem of evil was originally posed by Epicurus who identified evil with pain and good with pleasure, and furthermore for him pain (i.e. evil) was the positive reality and pleasure (i.e. good) was just the absence of pain, and so a negative reality. This is exactly the inverse of the Christian world view. Firstly, pain and suffering for Christians is not something inherently evil, suffering can be good. Secondly, good is considered the poistive reality, and evil is just the absence or lack of good. So any debate between epicureans and Christians where they don't clarify these things from the start will inevitably lead to talking pst eachother and can lead no where.

>Why does God permit evil?

1) Because God respects the free will He gave to His creatures.

2) God temporarily permits evil to happen only so that it may lead to good (Gnesis 50:20). He will forever eradicate evil when the Day of the Lord happens.

>Why did God give man free will?

Because God loves man. Remember the parable of the prodigal son. You are asking why the father bothered to have children, knowing that one of them would betray him and squander his inheritance.

Our greatest living philosopher on the topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtx5GyP7i7w

You should know that you don't need to have exhaustive answers on these hard questions to realize the need for salvation and the truth of the Christian gospel

>>725224

>If God is omniscient and entirely good, why does he permit evil?

In a sense he doesn't. Say you see a man drowning in a river, and you run towards him, dive into the river and swim towards him, and it takes you 30 seconds to reach him, in those 30 seconds are you permitting evil? No. In the same way God is actively striving to destroy evil, he already conquered death and sin on the cross, and we are looking forward to him finishing the job.

>Why did evil come about in the first place?

The biblical story of Genesis (Be it literal or allegorical) points towards a higher metaphysical and theological truth, mankind was in communion with God and fell away from him. When we were with God we had love, we had life, we had truth, but Adam turned away from that and spread it to all of humanity like a disease (Be it original sin in a genetic sense or a distortion of reality that affected everyone).

>If it's because of man's free will, why did God give him the gift if he knew what it would entail?

There is no love without risk. God created everything out of love, and made us in a way in which the love would contain a risk. God knew we would fall away, but also willingly also chose to become incarnate and undo the wrong we did.

>Why did God create man and then just have him sort of go back to him in the end?

Can you elaborate on this please.

>Are we living in a comedy?

Not in the modern sense.

Read the summa

>>725231

>Because God respects the free will He gave to His creatures.

What about destructive forces like hurricanes, volcanoes, asteroids, etc.?

>God temporarily permits evil to happen only so that it may lead to good (Gnesis 50:20). He will forever eradicate evil when the Day of the Lord happens.

Why does He permit it to happen in the first place? What is the necessity for it? I am not just talking about the evil associated with the free will of man, but of natural disasters and other terrible events.

>>725234

>In a sense he doesn't.

But man is not omniscient. God knew that the man would drown and need rescuing, but he plays it out anyway. For what purpose? When will the job be completed? Why have a whole process dedicated to it if He is omniscient and knows what is going to happen regardless of the actions men take?

>The biblical story of Genesis (Be it literal or allegorical) points towards a higher metaphysical and theological truth

I understand. If Adam's gift from God was free will and that had to have the possibility of evil come along with it, why did God create the previous evils I spoke of?

>God knew we would fall away, but also willingly also chose to become incarnate and undo the wrong we did.

Why? Why would He create something that He knows will fall into sin and then attempt to redeem it only for it to sort of work? Are you implying He is a comedian?

>Can you elaborate on this please.

What is God's reason for creating man? To give the free will that God possesses to his creation? What is Heaven? What is man's destiny according to Christian belief?

>>725250

>The general view is that God is the ultimate good, and so evil is the absence of good, similar to a dark room without light: the darkness is not a substance or a form, it's just the lack of light that brings it about.

But God is omniscient. Why does He allow the absence of good everywhere, not just when it comes to free will? I agree that darkness is not substance, but it has to be accounted for as well.

>so instead we were gently moved over the course of centuries to a better understanding of the Divine Truth; we may never find the 100% certain truth, but like I said, it's all according to plan.

What plan? God's plan? What does that plan entail?

>but authors far smarter than me theorize that it will be utter completeness like nothing in the mortal world could even compare to

There's a whole range of theories of what being "complete with God" means. Everything from heaven being perceived as a physical place to heaven being a state of mind achieved on earth in order to accept death and the return to eternity counts depending on who you ask. I'm genuinely curious as to what you guys on here truly believe and I'd like more details.

>>725268

>What about destructive forces like hurricanes, volcanoes, asteroids, etc.?

Caused by Adam's sin. See Genesis 3:

>Cursed is the ground for your sake;

>In toil you shall eat of it

>All the days of your life.

>Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,

>And you shall eat the herb of the field.

>In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread

>Till you return to the ground,

>For out of it you were taken;

>For dust you are,

>And to dust you shall return.

The world was disfigured by Adam and this will only be solved at the final judgement. See Romans 8:

>For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

>

Why does He permit it to happen in the first place? What is the necessity for it? I am not just talking about the evil associated with the free will of man, but of natural disasters and other terrible events.

The greatest evil of all is death. First, for an overall view of what God does with evil, see the book of the prophet Habakkuk. While I cannot cite the entire book for obvious reasons, I suggest you read all of it. The overall point is:

- Israel is corrupting God's creation by sinning greatly, and betraying His covenant.

- God will use Babylon to purify Israel, by taking over the nation and leading its survivors into exile.

- But Babylon is not innocent either, and so God will in turn punish Babylon, and all the smaller nations that were hurt by Babylon will rejoice.

- But God will not entertain this vicious circle of having sinful nations destroy each other. This is not what divine justice is about. Ultimately, God will cut this vicious circle short, by introducing His own glory to the creation and purifying it of all its evil, so that all evil things will be gotten rid of forever and all good and holy things will be forever preserved.

Why do I talk about it when this seems to be about the sin caused by man directly? Because this directly applies to death. Death is not natural, man only became mortal because of Adam's sin. See Genesis 2:

>Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Just as God used Babylon to punish Israel without endorsing Babylon itself, God used death to purify the world without endorsing death itself. Examples of God using death to purify the world are plentiful: there is the Flood, there is the attack on Canaan, there is the death sentence in th Law… But death of man greatly grieves God and is not His primary will. See for instance Ezekiel 18:

>“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

cont.

>>725285

Or Psalm 16:

>Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;

>My flesh also will rest in hope.

>For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,

>Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

>You will show me the path of life;

>In Your presence is fullness of joy;

>At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Or, if you're a deuterocanonical kind of person, Wisdom 1:

>Do not invite death by the error of your life,

>nor bring on destruction by the works of your hands;

>because God did not make death,

>and he does not delight in the death of the living.

>For he created all things that they might exist,

>and the generative forces of the world are wholesome,

>and there is no destructive poison in them;

>and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.

>For righteousness is immortal.

With the works of Christ, God destroyed death for good. Yet people still die. Is death still being used by God in the economy of salvation? No. God only used death in the economy of salvation to purify the world in preparation for His Messiah, and He took upon death Himself to destroy it. Now the world is purified by Jesus Himself, by the sacrament of Baptism that lets us die and be resurrected with Him.

But while God's work to save His world was done at Easter, the final judgement proper will take place at some point in the future. The resurrection of Jesus was an "echo" of it, so to speak. This is why Sunday is called the Day of the Lord, even though this refers to the final judgement in the Prophets.

Then why do we still get to suffer and die right now? Because God's Kingdom is not fully established yet, although the Chuch is an "echo" of it and paves the way to it. Until the second coming happens, the existence of death and suffering can still remind us that 1) we need salvation and this world is still not as God meant it to be, 2) we can and must help those who suffer, whether because of human sin or because of natural disaster, and 3) we must remember that we are sinners and our life might cease at any time. Even the Lord points out that natural accidents do not happen because God's justice wills it so, but must remind us that our life might be cut short at any time and we must repent. Luke 13:

>There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

We must have faith in God and trust that He has conquered death for us, that His whole creation will be deified and made peaceful again, and that what others mean for evil, God means for good. Wwhich not only means other individuals but also angels, beings without reason, and the rest of creation, because the death of those who carry His image grieves Him immensely, see Genesis 9:

>Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

>“Whoever sheds man’s blood,

>By man his blood shall be shed;

>For in the image of God

>He made man.

“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22-23

>>725268

>Heaven being a state of mind achieved on earth in order to accept death and the return to eternity counts depending on who you ask. I'm genuinely curious as to what you guys on here truly believe and I'd like more details.

I’m curious where you heard this from, it seems pretty at odds with Christian theology to view death as the natural state and oblivion the fate of humanity

>>725268

>For what purpose?

In this instance of the drowning man, he was on the path home to his wife and kids but saw treasure chest floating in the water. He could have just walked straight home, but instead he got arrogant and dived in the water, thinking he could best the raging waters.

That was the man's choice, if God stepped in pushed the man home then he would be violating the man's freedom.

>When will the job be completed?

We don't know, we pray that it occurs soon. God is timeless, to him a second is to a us a thousand years.

>Why have a whole process dedicated to it if He is omniscient and knows what is going to happen regardless of the actions men take?

The process is the way to keep Humanity as it is yet at the same time saving it. If God intervened and made everyone believe in him then where would our free will be? We would be slaves and not sons.

>why did God create the previous evils I spoke of?

Adam did, as I said earlier the fall was a metaphysical event that affected reality itself. God made the world good, we corrupted it.

>Why? Why would He create something that He knows will fall into sin and then attempt to redeem it only for it to sort of work? Are you implying He is a comedian?

It worked perfectly anon, why didn't it? The only ones who lose out are the ones who reject the gift. If there was a cure for cancer but many people refused to have it because of pride then does that mean the cure is a failure?

>What is God's reason for creating man?

Love. God made the universe out of love, but he made humanity in a special way, he asked us to commune with him, to reciprocate the love he has for us.

>To give the free will that God possesses to his creation?

He gave us free will because of the love. He made the universe out of a love that was free and not forced, similarly we must love him in return freely and not against our will.

>What is Heaven?

The ability to love, whilst hell is the absence of this ability. Heaven has multiple meanings.

>What is man's destiny according to Christian belief?

The restoration of man and existence to what it originally was. A New Earth, a heaven on Earth.

>>725373

>We would be slaves and not sons.

I mean, sons still know their dad exists.

>>725456

Do they? if a baby was left alone on a desert island, would he know he had a father?

>>725224

Evil exists because of the nature of good and evil, for good to be meritorious and well … good a person must have to choose to be good, and evil must be an option. Because if good is the only way things can be then it lacks merit and is not good and it is the act of automata that cannot make choices rather than the act of a human being.

>>726464

>The problem that I have

Is that you are a willful and stubborn retard.

How many times do we have to explain?

Evil = choosing to exclude God.

Doing anything that is against the truth and goodness of reality.

And there is no evil without an actor. A stone can't be evil for hitting a bird the same way a gun isn't evil for killing a murderous criminal. Only the person moving them.

If something terrible happens without a personal actor, we call that a TRAGEDY.

>everybody has his own definition of evil

Yeah, and we all know whose definition matters.

>Rule 1: Become Orthodox.

respectable

>Rule 2: Don't become Catholic.

retarded

>>726464

>No. Those are adversities,

Oh, anon. Such poor logics.

>implying that all these "adversities" will be in the New Creation

>outright saying assault isn't an act of evil

Some of you orthodox have some weird ideas that are so distant from the core of Orthodoxy

>>726592

>theologically protestant western converts

I can't stand the Orthodox who say things like this. Jay Dyer is right when he says that Orthodox are some of the most egregious spiritual virtue signalers.

>>726598

Holy Scripture? No, that's something protestants believe in. We're above all that.

>>726598

hard to blame them, orthodox converts only have 2 crowds to hang with

1. protestant converts who still act like protestants (mostly online)

2. russians or misc. other eastern europeans they cannot possibly relate to (real life)

>>726768

oh, and then the real life crowd treats them with suspicion because they think they're there to poach their girls

>>726716

easy converts are annoying no matter what denomination but Larpthodoxes are particularly annoying. Either convert and drop your relativism or stay protestant.

>>726733

>Them saying that orthodoxy is closer to protestantism than Catholics

I've never seen a Orthodox say that they're closer to Protestantism than Catholicism. That's Catholics insulting the Orthodox for schisming.

>>725224

>If God is omniscient and entirely good, why does he permit evil?

Read Romans 1

>Why did evil come about in the first place?

It's because Adam listen indirectly to a tempter. Also read Romans and Job (latter, optional).

>Why did God create man and then just have him sort of go back to him in the end?

Same reason God created anything: for His glory. Romans goes in detail.

>Are we living in a comedy?

That's kinda what Augustine asked along with the idea of love as an other explanation. Do you know what he likes to give commentary on? Romans.

>>733597

orthodox manage to keep up sacraments, so I wouldn't say so

>>733597

I've seen Ortholarpers say that they're closer to Protestants allll the time on this board. There have been at least a few threads with that topic (guaranteed there was one) and several posts, Ortholarpers calling Catholics crypto atheists and so on.

In reality though they're former Protestants who have so much hate for the Catholic Church that they're LARPing are Orthos. Don't think that there aren't loads of them on this board.

>>726598

>Jay Dyer