/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Also… Nobody is saved by fearing Hell. Or rather:

Proverbs 9:10

>The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,

>And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

but

1 John 4:17-18

>Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

>>724905

He is right with whom God agrees. The answer is in scripture. Don't trouble yourself with "what if", but what you find to be the teaching of scripture, believe absolutely and unflinchingly. The holy scripture is the final judge of all theological disputes, for the Lord will judge His people.

>>724905

All Trinitarian Christians will be saved. Acts 16:25-31

>Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved

Thank you brothers for your assuring words, my longposts rarely get responses when I do make them. From the bottom of my heart thank you and bless you.

>>724920

I used to fear hell, now I fear not knowing the Lord enough. Thank you for the reminder.

>>724920

There is a man who I believe is wise named Ravi Zacharias who said "It doesn't matter what you label an empty bottle if the bottle is empty." It really made me think. Could it be possible that instead of true churches, there are true believers who obey the Lord and love him with all their heart soul mind and strength, and when they gather under one roof, that church is the one that receives favor? Because those believers receive favor? Thank you for your assuring words.

Read the Bible. Check the variations between manuscripts. It will lead you to the Truth.

>>724905

God will sort them out.

>>724905

According to protestantism if you believe in Christ then you go to heaven. Thus all Catholics go to heaven under the rules of protestantism. However no protestant goes to heaven under the rules of Catholicism.

If anyone can show how a Catholic is precluded from fulfilling the simple rule of protestantism that you believe in Christ and are saved I would be interested to hear it

Hell begins in this life and so does salvation, Catholics and Protestants that make these blanket statements about people tend to miss the point. The problem with heresy is that it leads people astray from the truth that can save them, but not everyone that's been deceived is automatically damned. Becoming a Christian and joining the church is about healing, not just being theologically right. What saves you is your relationship to God, it's allowing the holy spirit to guide you and transform you, to soften your heart, it's holistic not legalistic. The holy Eucharist is the most precious gift, given to the church by Christ, it's the most intimate encounter with God you can have in this life. The problem with heresies is that they lead people away from the one hospital that can heal them and set them free.

>>724905

>damn this denominationalism

Those are wise words.

>I go church to church and no one is convicted by the Holy Spirit, everyone is idle and blissful WHEN THERE ARE PEOPLE GOING TO HELL

Most people who claim to be Christian are living carnally. I wouldn't be surprised if less than 1% of confessing Christians are actually born again.

>Catholic or Protestant, who is going to hell

Protestantism consists of many small denominations. The only way to get a trustworthy answer, is by comparing each and every branch individually.

That being said, focusing on denominations is a huge trap. Instead, focus on Jesus Christ, and on the Bible. Theology obviously matters, but God cares more about your heart than He does about your theology being 100% perfect.

Keep in mind that, being a son of God, you can ask your heavenly Father for all good things (Matthew 7:7-11), and that the Lord does not leave you to deal with these things alone, the Holy Spirit will teach you all vital things (John 14:26). Draw nigh to God, brother, and He will draw nigh to you (Psalms 145:18). Trust in Him, and you will never be disappointed (Psalms 34:22).

>>724940

>Thus all Catholics go to heaven under the rules of protestantism.

No true. Catholics put their trust in another god and believe they get to Heaven based on their works.

>>724990

>Catholics put their trust in another god

???

>>724905

>So Catholics say Protestants are going to hell, Protestants say Catholics are going to hell … Who is right? Who has the answer? Can I ever find peace and security in the Lord? Please help me brothers.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. …"

Ergo, the hellbound are those who fail to cling to Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Pretty simple when you read your Bible.

Ideally your priest should be teaching you this, but I suppose he was too busy venerating Mary, or extolling the sacraments, or fiddling his violin … what?

>>724990

Nope, Catholicism condemns pelagianism (salvation by works). You'll have to show how Catholics worship a different God according to protestantism, I am unconvinced

>>724905

Unpopular opinion.

God judges the hearts, not the theological opinions. Your theology may be wrong and you can still be saved.

>>724940

Matthew 7

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

>>725075

Explain then how one gets saved. If not by works then baptism, communion, and being a good boi don't make you any more likely to be saved.

>>725082

"Salvation is of Faith" is true, but I don't see "Faith isn't affected by anything at all".

Read this:

2 Peter 1:5-6 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge, and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness

>>725082

>Many

>All

You might want to invest in a dictionary. Jesus is not saying you CAN'T do works or that if you do works, you're not saved.

>>725084

You didn't answer the question. What's the minumum for someone to get saved

>>725085

If you beleive you need works to be saved then you're going to hell.

>>725088

Nobody but Mormons and Muslims believe that.

I'm neither fully catholic or fully protestant I often enjoy exegesis from Catholics and protestants. I think both will be saved if their faith is true enough to produce works and they are fully repentant for their sins.

>>725088

See you as a protestant gotta read your own interpretation that says faith that doesnt produce works is dead. So the caveat here is you got to want to do these works if it's a chore or a disdained obligation they mean nothing. That's the problem with works based salvation.

>>725089

Then what do you have to do to be saved?

Neither, stop being a useless sectarian. Catholicism is most complete but Prots, despite their extremely flawed understanding of God, can still live out a proper Christian life.

>>725117

By grace, through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-10

Simple OP everyone who believes in The Trinity!

>>725126

Matthew 28:19 that most people know is edited catholic bulshit

>>725129

Elaborate

>>725124

So no baptism or eucharist required?

>>725172

>baptism

No. The thief on the cross was not baptised, but he was saved. Baptism is symbolic of repentance, the washing away of the old for the new. It is not wrong to be baptised and baptism is usually the first step in joining a Church, but it is not needed for salvation.

>eucharist

No. It is important that we remember Christ and his sacrifice and Jesus asks that we eat of his body and drink of his blood in remembrance, but it is not necessary for salvation.

We are saved by grace alone. Without the grace of God, you can dunk yourself in water and eat all the bread you want, but you are not saved. Of course, I'm a Methodist and I'm sure there are those here who will completely disagree; but that's how I was raised.

>>725179

Methodists are sacramentalists, which methodist group are you a part of?

>>725179

To add to what you're saying, I believe there is a tragedy of false conversions on both sides of Christianity, for the protestants, one may be taken in the energy of the moment and believe that one is saved because they said a prayer as pastors reinforce constantly. In Catholicism, the church carefully and thoroughly guides potential converts through RCIA then the sacraments of baptism and the like, even with such care, if the believer isn't genuinely seeking the salvation of the Lord and seeing their sins for what it is, and the price that was paid on the cross, the believer could go years believing they are saved because of the energy of the moment that the process merited them into salvation in some way

If Catholics honestly believe Protestants go to hell then I'm not catholic

>>725215

Methodist sacraments are celebrations, not requirements. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, held that baptism is a means of grace, but it was symbolic.

>>725244

>If Catholics honestly believe Protestants go to hell then I'm not catholic

Good news! http://www.scborromeo.org/papers/cathheav.pdf

>>725167

ok

http://web.archive.org/web/20121231123343/http://www.israelofgod.org/Constantine.htm

http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Steve%20Katsaras%20--%20Matthew%2028-19.pdf

https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/matthew-28-19

>>725244

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

the Catholic Church is the Ark, you cannot be saved in the flood. If Protestants are baptized some somehow retain baptismal innocence they'll be saved but not very likely otherwise.

'In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved.'

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

'Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.'

>but what about me? And I sit in Catholic churches and I feel so empty.

Because you are

I will speak to my Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. If I consider myself anything more than this, behold You stand against me, and my sins bear witness to the truth which I cannot contradict. If I abase myself, however, if I humble myself to nothingness, if I shrink from all self-esteem and account myself as the dust which I am, Your grace will favor me, Your light will enshroud my heart, and all self-esteem, no matter how little, will sink in the depths of my nothingness to perish forever.

It is there You show me to myself – what I am, what I have been, and what I am coming to; for I am nothing and I did not know it. Left to myself, I am nothing but total weakness. But if You look upon me for an instant, I am at once made strong and filled with new joy. Great wonder it is that I, who of my own weight always sink to the depths, am so suddenly lifted up, and so graciously embraced by You.

It is Your love that does this, graciously upholding me, supporting me in so many necessities, guarding me from so many grave dangers, and snatching me, as I may truly say, from evils without number. Indeed, by loving myself badly I lost myself; by seeking only You and by truly loving You I have found both myself and You, and by that love I have reduced myself more profoundly to nothing. For You, O sweetest Lord, deal with me above all my merits and above all that I dare to hope or ask.

May You be blessed, my God, for although I am unworthy of any benefits, yet Your nobility and infinite goodness never cease to do good even for those who are ungrateful and far from You. Convert us to You, that we may be thankful, humble, and devout, for You are our salvation, our courage, and our strength.

The Catholic Church is what all Christians have maintained for 2000 years, not some newly invented thing a couple of centuries ago.

If you can find a traditional mass near you check it out, otherwise adoration and some good spiritual reading would probably be good.

The main thing is the Eucharist, which is only in the Church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58ygPmqB_2o

http://alphonsianum.blogspot.com/2011/02/dwelling-of-jesus-on-our-altars.html

>>725316

Constantine didn't actually affect the scriptures, has been debunked.

>>724905

The Catholic church is filled with homosexuals and pedophiles, it is the literal whore of Babylon and there are no two ways about it.

I'm Orthodox, and while it be the best if you became Orthodox, for starters I'd say: Anything but Catholic.

>>725367

>that quote

>"Lord, I believe; help my unbelief”

Why dont protestants read the Bible for once?

>>725367

You could just be a catholic and reject Teresa

>>725369

>if there be god

this aint it chief

>>725246

Isn't that a contradiction? If it confers grace that's not symbolism, that's literal

If it were symbolic, it wouldn't be done to babies who couldn't profess faith

>>725329

>Because you are

I'm not empty, Catholic services hold a sense of emptiness. It seems routine, like no one is actually into it, as if most of the people there are only there to receive their brownie points for the week. I am of course not accusing anyone, I do see genuine hearts, a mother hugging proudly her daughter after taking the eucharist as if she hadn't been in a while. There are genuine hearts in every service I visit, but when I go to these services, I never get the sense that the Kingdom of God is at hand.

>The Catholic Church is what all Christians have maintained for 2000 years, not some newly invented thing a couple of centuries ago.

I'm really tired of Catholics claiming that they've had an unbroken chain of pure orthodoxy for the past 2000 years when they clearly haven't. "There have been Godly Popes, and devil Popes" as my RCIA priest had put it. There have been many changes in the Catholic church, of doctrine and dogma, and it has evolved, and learned and become better in many ways. And from what I hear from other Catholics, it is actually lacking in many ways. The church fathers are venerable, but they lived during a period where the gospel and the Word of God were still being figured out. They had many things right, and in other areas, they were theological theorists in many ways. The Catholic church wasn't even officially recognized, obviously, before 390(?), and thereafter, they went through many changes in their orthodoxy, tradition and history. New things were added, because new things were realized and revealed.

What is objective about the reformation, is that it was a response to corruption inside the church, and that church may have remained whole if it had not so dearly clung to their own authority and power. And the reformers of this period desired a return to the scriptures, but I'm not going to open that can of beans.

>Catholic or Protestant, who is going to hell

<God knows what's in your heart regardless of the names and descriptions people give themselves

>>725443

Amen, "it does not matter what you label an empty bottle if that bottle is empty." And the more I read the word, the more I see how God searches hearts instead of titles and tradition. However, I see these anons post their responses at how outside the RCC, there can be salvation under these heart circumstances, but as one anon put it

>the Catholic church is an ark, and a flood is coming, not of water but of sin

And quotes Christ concerning the narrow road to the narrow gate, presumably under a false precept that this is concerning the Catholic church alone. When I weigh the truth, I see that, even if my heart is true, because I am not under a communion that is considered pure, because I do not take a eucharist that is considered pure or the true sacraments, I lack justification, or rather sanctification, however the Catholic church makes this distinction. And with that in mind, though my heart was at peace yet working out my salvation with fear and trembling, seeking wholeheartedly the face of the Lord, I then become distracted by the claims of the RCC that my seeking becomes redundant by technicality. This is not a help for me, nor a healthy correction, but actually a dangerous distraction from what I have been seeking, causing me to be double minded rather than assured. But whose favor matters more to me? The orthodoxy of sacraments or the favor of God? I choose God, but to some, I cannot choose God, or am not choosing God if I am under an incorrect communion with God.

>>725379

>Isn't that a contradiction? If it confers grace that's not symbolism, that's literal

>If it were symbolic, it wouldn't be done to babies who couldn't profess faith

You should read what Calvin says about baptism

>>725388

>images of Jesus Christ are idolatry

>posts image of Jesus Christ

>>725443

Correction:

>the reprobate among all men will be cast out of the threshing floor

being part of the Church is a necessary condition, however. remember the parable of the wedding guest without the proper attire.

>>731934

>remember the parable of the wedding guest without the proper attire.

new guy here, i just read the parable. what does it have to do with being part of a church being a necessary condition?

>>731977

Being part of the True Church = wearing the proper garment to the Wedding.

correlate this with : "Many are called, but few are Chosen.", and "Many will say Lord, Lord, we have done many miracles in your name…", and it becomes apparent salvation has some necessary conditions attached.

>>724905

>Catholics say Prots go to hell

>Protestants say Catholics are going to hell.

No they don't, only the retarded sheep within those groups make such claims.

>>731981

More precisely: there are a lot of people who were baptized into the Church, who received all the Sacraments and who might be thought of as safe, who will be cast out of the Kingdom of God because of their behavior. Baptism and the other Sacraments are powerful things, but a man must fully receive them in order for them to take their full effect–in other words, you must genuinely live and practice your faith in God. Or, as St. James says, faith without works is dead.

>>731983

I think on the prot side we just hold to the idea that we are more likely to have a person be saved.

Personally I think it depends on the person, some are inclined to the strong points of each side.

>>731983

Knowing that Protestants have plenty of time to understand Catholic Theology but chose not to, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus certainly applies.

I guess I'm "retarded sheep" though, as you say.

>>725080

Correct opinion

>>725080

I don't necessarily disagree, but that is so long as whatever mistakes that are made don't cause too much trouble for other people. It's one thing to debate this or that verse, it's another to loudly spread things that are inherently non-Christian (like endorsement of homosexuality or serial divorce) based on error. Best to pick your battles; if it's a Latin Mass Tradcath Church a block down from Missouri Synod, I'd rather have them both there at a cost of minor friction than have one liberation theology-type church that does regular pro-abortion, anti-law marches.

>>732028

The statement was made to illustrate that "Inculpable Ignorance" doesn't apply in this situation, since its a situation were "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" might not apply.