/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>tfw Israelites couldn't be soldiers

>tfw God was contradicting Himself by telling the Israelites to go fight and genocide entire nations

>tfw Christianity is a carebear religion

>>721025

The correct word would be “murder”. Executing a serial murder is not murder, it’s a public service.

>>721027

When you have the option to put a serial murderer in prison for life and away from the public, then executing that serial murderer is murder. Execution deprives that serial murderer of a chance at redemption and, thus, it is murder.

>>721025

>thou shall not kill

The correct is "Thou shall not murder"

Killing innocents is forbidden.

>When is it okay to disobey the 6th commandment?

Never

>>721035

Life in prison is a lot worse than the death penalty. I’d much rather, if I were a murderer given the choice, choose death

Not to mention, the death penalty is biblical from Genesis 9:6-Acts 5:10

>>721035

According to whom?

>>721042

Ok, well considering there are multiple versions of the bible, even the oldest versions have multiple interpretations, unless you heard it from jesus himself how can you even tell?

>>721054

also, most people accept the commandment to be kill. so why are you saying it should be murder?

Honestly, the command written as kill makes much more sense than as murder.

Murder implies you are righteous enough to judge what killing is just, and what is not. It implies you are the one to decide who lives and who dies based on YOUR law and not GODS law

makes more sense for god to say NEVER KILL because gods law and plan dictates when people die.

>>721058

That's not what it means though.

>>721060

so you just completely ignored most of what i said and just repeated the same thing.

>>721063

No, I literally responded to everything you said. It's all incorrect. You might as well have said that "kill" should be replaced by "unicorn" and you would have effectively said the same thing you did: which is nothing meaningful.

Murder is killing against or outside the law. The death sentence is legally sanctioned, as is war, self-defence, and euthanasia.

Not that I think abortion or euthanasia are just in any way at all.

>>721074

One of these things is not sanctioned in the Bible.

>>721044

>I’d much rather … die

That's not your choice to make.

>>721074

>The death sentence is legally sanctioned

So, you're saying man's law > God's law.

Noted.

>>721055

Because it doesn't conflict with the rest of the bible.

>>721088

So you're saying I should press the triangle next to your name, check the "add filter" section, and click "ID" until you stop being intellectually dishonest?

Noted.

>>721090

You can filter me, but you can't filter God.

>>721088

>I have never read Leviticus

>>721097

>I have never read Matthew

>>721092

>>721088

Stop this right now, this is sophistry. God gives Moses permission to use the Death Penalty once he completes his covenant with God by making an offering after the flood.

Genesis 9:6 - The penalty of killing a innocent man is the death of the murderer.

Matthew 18:6 - Killing yourself is better than offending an christian child.

Acts 25:11 - Paul acknowledges the legitimacy of the death penalty. "Deed worthy of death"

>>721035

>Execution deprives that serial murderer of a chance at redemption

Or, as has traditionally been the case, it prevents him or her from sinning more, and making their case worse for themselves. You also would have access to a priest, and could receive the sacraments prior to execution.

>>721088

>So, you're saying man's law > God's law.

God sets up and allows states to continue existing, and gives them authority over their citizens. Where a state's law doesn't go against God it is effectively an extension of God's Law, and should be obeyed. Ephesians 6:5

People put to death for their crimes are at fault for their own death.

Being put to death is part of their payment for their crimes.

It's leaving crimes unpunished or vastly underpunished that results in an environment of universal crime.

You're effectively punishing the innocent by forcing them to forgive an unlimited number of attacks against themselves.

>>721115

and yet.. the 6th commandment is kill, and not murder. and most theologians agree kill is the correct word.

kinda makes your argument fall flat.

>>721115

Jesus was all about turning the other cheek. Which makes you think that you really are supposed to just lay down and take whatever happens to you.

Didn't jesus once say that if a man is happy in this world, then god does not like you? that you should frown instead of laugh, be sullen instead of joyous? Almost like this world is so evil that for a man to be content here he must be evil.

>>721035

>When you have the option to put a serial murderer in prison for life and away from the public, then executing that serial murderer is murder

No, the Bible itself says that when someone commits murder, the blood of the murdered one desecrates the land, and the only way to purify is by killing the murderer.

>>721130

tirzach = murder

taharog = kill

6th commandment is against murder

>>721470

Since it was established earlier by >>721074 that state execution requires man's sanction, what about places where the death penalty is not legal? Like for instance Vatican City. Are you seriously going to claim that every nation that doesn't permit the death penalty is corrupt? What about the man drawn lines in the dirt that make nations which didn't even exist when the Bible was written? How can a nation even have laws if it wasn't a nation created by God? Unless, of course, you believe that "ethnicity = nation".

>>721470

And yet God didn't kill Cain. How about that, eh?

>>721476

he made special provision for Cain, the Bible makes it pretty clear he was an exception and being granted special protection.

>>721475

Are you seriously going to claim that every nation that doesn't permit the death penalty is corrupt?

I didn't say it corrupts nations. It just desecrates the land in some manner. What the nature of that desecration is and its consequences are I can't say and don't know, but we would surely be wise enough to take it to heart. All I know is that it has a negative influence on communities, and killing murderers is a way of mollifying that negative ifluence.

>>721488

If it's done by thorough and fair legal procedures, carried out by government authority then it is lamentable but acceptable. Again, it is murder that has desecrating influence, not killing as such. Government authority and courts of law are good things. For the government not to execute criminals would be injustice which is an evil.

>>721507

I would rather 1,000 guilty men go free than execute a single innocent.

>>721509

>>721513

You're free to follow secular humanism if you like, but don't call it Christianity.

>>721525

>>721513

>>721509

All the same person...

1 to make the worry of killing innocents into an idea of literally freeing murderers when it's actually keeping them suffering with their sin for life and avoiding death if innocents.

>>721520

How many people did Christ execute? He even allowed a murderer to go free (Barabas) while he went to the cross.

>>721534

I never switch IPs, Mr (1), but thanks for trying.

>>721507

He who lives by the State, will die by the State.

>>721537

>How many people did Christ execute?

Do you actually think this is a good argument? lol

>>721540

It's the best argument … unless you don't believe in being Christ-like.

>>721542

Do you think being Christ-like means being a pacificst hippy? Christ is king. Christ judges all mankind Christ condmens sinners to hellfire.

>>721547

Jesus didn't start any wars. Jesus didn't execute anyone. Jesus never even struck anyone (and before you bring up the whip, he didn't hit anyone with it, just swung it around). I'm sorry that your fee-fees are filled with such blood lust, but Jesus didn't share in that blood lust. He even healed the man who came to arrest him, saying: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." (Matt 26:52)

Does that sound like an angry, vengeful, "kill 'em all" kind of guy?

>>721553

>Jesus didn't start any wars.

Conquest of Canaan.

>Jesus didn't execute anyone.

Firstborn of Egypt.

>>721562

>Get called out on perverting the gospel

>Welp, better change the subject

Your argument is trash anyway, since putting innocents in life is wrong anyway, so better just get rid of criminal punishment all together right? And your methodology is bullshit as well, since in 1976 the technology to consider DNA evidence didn't exist, so the rate of wrongful executions that could be avoided by DNA evidence will plummet so long as investigations are conducted properly.

Also your original argument was garbage in the first place "name one time Jesus did X!" Well name one time Jesus got married or sired children. Haha can't do it, looks like God really just created mankind in order that it might subject itself to voluntary extinction.

Poster status: Disingenuous larping progressive

>>721565

You need to learn to ID, friend.

>>721572

Your whole post was just a poorly reasoned non-sequitor then, the point stands, get lost

>>721575

>get lost

No. I'm going to stay and spread the good word of Christ to balance out your fear mongering and nationalism.

>>721106

Nobody adressed my earlier post.

>>721025

It is never okay to disobey the 6th commandment.

It is however acceptable and even necessary to kill in 3 circumstances:

1. In self defense

2. In a just war

3. For the proper authorities to punish grave crimes.

>>721054

No they don’t, it’s clearly referring to “murder”, especially considering God said certain crimes should be punished with execution

>>721730

ok, thanks. where in the bible does it say this btw? and is it in all versions?

>>721799

same response for you too, just curious.

>>721807

Don't bother. They're going to interpret it in any way that satisfies their need for blood libel.

>>721835

Honestly, how can anyone possibly think the bible represents gods word, when people also think that it has no universally agreed version, and varies from person to person based on their own man made laws/morals?

what is the point of the bible if man can just choose to rewrite it in subtle ways at will, to bend it to their liking?

Nice (((translation))), it is murder not kill

>>721959

>people are bad so the Bible must be bad too

>>721963

I pay my fair share of taxes. It's cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than it is to execute them.

>>721835

I knew I'd see this post sooner or later. It's the logical conclusion of Islamic abrogation of old law which so many CINOs believe in.

>>721992

are you replying to a different person?

>>721991

which version does it say murder?

>>722146

the hebrew version

>>722166

you mean the torah? confused here.

>>721513

The ethical dilemma is meaningless in reality.

If you employ smart investigators, train them well, hold them to strict ethics: you will have justice as good as anyplace else. If you pick people for reasons other than ability, if your "training" is more about politics than the job, if your ethics committee likewise revolves around politics: your land is run by gangsters.

You don't pick between convicting the innocent and releasing the guilty. If you do one then the other comes with it at no extra charge.

>>722168

i think we can all agree that as men, we can come up with suitable laws acceptable by men.

but this is about gods law right?

>>722175

In the case of "convict innocents" vs "acquit guilty" I'd say it's more a matter of performance.

If you perform good, you get good justice. If you perform not at all then you get justice not at all. If one claims to be holier-than-thou but their performance is abysmal, scrutinize their claims.

>>722175

God has instituted capital punishment for a lot of grave acts in the past, yet he still added the 6th commandment (and this all at the same time in the desert with Moses).

The 6th commandment is "thou shalt not murder", but "thou shalt not kill" has been used in the same context because everybody knew the actual meaning of the commandment.

The real, absolute reading of the 6th commandment would mean not only no capital punishment but neither any form of possibly lethal self-defense, no retaliation when troops are invading your country, no disabling a band of thieves from raping your wife and kids if they'd break in, and going even further to Christ no self-sacrifice (because you're basically killing yourself for someone else's sake).

This commandment, together with "love thy neighbour" teach us that life is sacred, and should not be taken lightly and someone's death needs to be avoided at all cost.

Keeping someone in a prison for life, however, is as bad as capital punishment with an extra added flavour of hypocrisy.

The hypocrisy comes from the supposed more humane treatment by banishing someone in a boring environment with hostile people and mediocre food while imprisonment as a concept has been meant to reeducate inmates to a non-criminal life in society.

A life sentence is an abuse of power for sheer display of hypocrisy on the cost of society's money.

If one cannot be rehabilitated into society and keeps on coming back by doing severe crimes after getting multiple second-chances to a normal life, only capital punishment would be a true solution.

>B-but muh chance to repent!

They had that the multiple times they went out and even before that.

>>722192

>A life sentence is an abuse of power for sheer display of hypocrisy on the cost of society's money.

It's actually cheaper to keep someone in jail for life than it is to handle all the logistic details of killing some one in america under the law and i assume you mean america cause you keep referring to the prison environment in america.

>>722192

God approving of capital punishment basically is the same thing as saying all men are righteous enough to judge when another person will leave this earth.

Jesus says that he is the only one who can pass judgement on matters of life and death in accordance with his fathers wishes.

What are the guidelines for man to decide when killing is justified? Sure you can lay out the obvious scenarios that make perfect sense to me and you.. but thats only to me and you, and we are men. When men make rules, they make sense to men, just like when men sin, it makes sense for these men to sin. It does not mean that it is within God's laws.

Its just like any other commandment, following most of the commandments usually seem to result in hardships for people. It has always been the case that those who are wicked and do not follow the commandments that they gain the upper hand on those that dont in this world. Why not break all the other commandments as well since they seem very inconvenient to adhere to?

Thou shalt not kill.

>>722220

based

>>721058

I guess the Hebrews got it wrong when in the same book it is recorded they went to war against their neighbours at the command of God.

O wise and mighty Anon, please explain that.

>>722756

which jew said that god said he should kill people?

where can i find this passage? im interested.

>>722220

>>722220

If you were to come across two people, and one was obviously about to kill the other, assuming you have the capability to end the violence, what do you do? If you had a gun, and use it, the would be murderer would probably go to hell. If you DONT use it, the person about to get murdered might go to hell, and you'd be complicit to it by inaction. So what would you do? You cant say that God had arranged, or is allowing, the death of that person. Maybe He sent you there to stop it? Things are not as black and white as you think.

>>722830

theres about a million things in the bible that lead me to believe that god/jesus doesnt even know if they want people to go to hell for no reason at all.

For instance, jesus literally says that the people would never be guilty if they didnt know about him, but since he showed up, now they are guilty if they dont believe in him.

The whole damn thing doesnt make sense, why even come around in the first place if everyone would never be guilty, jesus's own words he says this.

And the commandments can sometimes command you to break other commandments, for instance honor thy father and mother. What if your mother or father asks you to bear false withness? or to steal? What if your father or mother teaches you to always steal, kill, and covert neighbors goods? when is is acceptable to break commandments? where are the guidelines? seems like an easy way to land in hell if you interpret it the wrong way.

I am a christian, but sometimes I really only feel like a christian out of raw fear alone, and to me that makes me feel like god does not love, moreso conquers.

>>722854

hmmm it's almost like piecemeal interpretations of scripture apart from holy tradition and the church lead to absurd conclusions

>>722854

to add to the first part, what happens if jesus first introduces himself as the messiah to a crowd, and he explains that if they do not believe in him, they are all damned, if they do they are saved.

What if a second later a man keels over from a heart attack. He had time to understand jesus's words, but he did not have time to be given explanation about his miracles,. sacrifice, or any other reasons for belief that the bible pounds into you.

Would this man go to hell because he knew jesus was the messiah before he died?

>>722857

>holy tradition

says who? men?

>>722860

and who came up with your interpretation of scripture? did you receive it through a second revelation? the holy traditions are not invented things subject to the whims of individuals, they are passed down understandings of how to interpret scriptures, how to live a christian life, knowledge regarding sacraments etc. holy tradition is from the holy spirit, your personal interpretation is from your limited intellect

>>722864

yes its my personal interpretation, and i asked if you had any source for these traditions being holy, and if you do, where are the holy guidelines for all of the questions we are asking in this thread?

>>722871

>i asked if you had any source for these traditions being holy

yeah, they were passed down by saints of the church, people whose testimony and opinion is far more reliable than yours. my source is that the best christians who ever lived said so, and if i cant believe them who am i going to believe?

I have the sneaking suspicion this thread was made by a Muslim or some kind of weird New Age cultist.

>>722873

but can you actually post the source? also pretty sure no one said they were more reliable than anyone else, why are you so passive aggressive about discussing something that you believe in?

>>723016

seems like a legit question for anyone with a brain to make a thread like this.

>>721035

If a person is so toxic to society that he must be in prison forever, to protect everyone else from him, then it's better to remove him completely by execution.

Offer him chances to repent before execution, but if he won't then carry on.

>>721356

You are confusing the interpretation of commandment for a society and for an individual.

If someone do you harm and hates you the most perfect behaviour from an holy man is to not respond to evil with evil. Leave, pray for the sinner and don't hate him.

If you are not at this level at least try to defend yourself without excess, without vengeance.

However a society can't have laws like this, a society must not force people to turn the other cheek but it must punish evildoers. Mercy for the guilty can't become punishment for the innocent.

>>721356

Are you comparing a slap in the face with muder and rape?

>>722854

>>722854

Well, I dont know. Just wait until you read things like

>all of Israel will be saved/justified

>the children of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness

>when they rise from the dead, they arent given in marriage but are like the Angel's of heaven

In the first resurrection, the people rule with Jesus for a thousand years, and those who are 100 will be like children. This implies later births, and so does Ezekiel 40-48 which say that priests can only take wives of the seed of Israel, and widows of former priests. The first resurrection is that of the righteous, the second is when most of those that are resurrected then will go to hell. Therefore, it's clearly talking about the first resurrection time, or the millenial kingdom.

>Paul's ever changing conversion story

I have more, too.

>>722830

Saving someone from being murdered and killing the assailant in the process is not murder, if done in genuine circumstances.

>>723157

Exactly. The person i responded to doesnt see that

>>722005

>It's cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than it is to execute them

thats ridiculous, do you have any idea how much it costs to keep an inmate alive in prison per year?

>>722005

LMAO, if you spend the money on some crazy 50 thousand dollar execution machine, you have no idea how expensive it is to keep all of the prisoners in the US in prison, we have way too many people in the prison system and it is scary, it's sucking millions out of the budget, killing a serious criminal costs a fraction of what it takes to keep them in prison a year, much less for life

>>723184

>>723187

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

The cost varies from state to state, but it is cheaper to imprison someone for life than to put them through the death penalty process. Legal costs, pre-trial costs, Jury selection, trial, incarceration, and appeals are all borne by the taxpayer.

>>723083

>Also, are we really supposed to believe this shit happened?

Yea, Guys looks like you got some Either New ager. Or Fedora in here. Just presupposing Naturalism off the bat. Along with Evangelicals in here who can't make a distinction between Killing vs Murder. to them Those words are just one in the same.

>>723189

I'm not going to deal with this retarded argument, sage for obvious leftist shilling

>>723187

just a thought here, but maybe if people looked into why the system is so conducive to people going to crime, it would be more beneficial than arguing the best way to lock them up/kill them.

Its almost like the 6th commandment is there specifically to protect people from jewish overlords constantly sending countries to frivously for-profit wars.

Imagine if people followed the commandments as they are written, there would be no vietnam or Iraq.

>>723312

frivolous*

>>723222

>present actual sources, studies, facts

>retarded argument

Suit yourself, kid; but your fee-fees doesn't change the established and well-documented fact that it costs more to put criminals to death than it does to imprison them for life.

>>723324

It has nothing to do with feelings when you have already shifted the goalposts many times. But since you have challenged me, let me refute all of your arguments:

You stated in your original post:

>>722005

>I pay my fair share of taxes. It's cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than it is to execute them.

This is completely false, none of the studies you cited prove that.

What they do prove is that pursuing death penalty charges adds additional cost onto the case that would not be there in the first place. This is the primary increase in death penalty costs and is due to the way that cases are handled with the death penalty in the US. The Supreme Court has made a decision which tried to say that death penalty cases should be treated with much more care than other cases. The states involved have been forced to go through spending much more taxpayer money on a death penalty trial than another trial because reasons. Another major cost is incarcerating the criminals because death row inmates are kept in extremely expensive areas. Modern "humane" ways of execution are also, as I said before, getting more expensive.

So no, it does not cost much more money to execute someone, our legal system simply dictates that the state has to splurge an extra large amount of money on death penalty cases to "be sure" they're getting the right person. It has nothing to do with the cost of executing them; if anything, all this has demonstrated is the ineffectiveness of our legal system, it shows nothing about capital punishment in principle.

Sacred Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition are both firmly on the side of capital punishment being a valid and moral punishment, and nothing you have said so far in this thread refutes that. Rather, you are using sophistic talking points because the testimony of Christian morality is against you.

>>723364

pretty sure despite your excellent description of WHY it does indeed cost more to execute than imprison, he is still right.

lay off the cocaine you just spent an hour proving yourself wrong lmao.

>>723367

I dunno, when I actually read his post it seemed like he was arguing against https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty being a valid study on the grounds that America is intentionally inefficient at them.

You're probably being intellectually dishonest but whatever.

>>723367

It doesn't cost more in principle, and for the vast majority of history it didn't, the only reason it did was because of liberals pushing for more rights against the death penalty in the US, the actual act of killing would always be cheaper, and furthermore, even if it were not, it would not prove the immorality of capital punishment which he sought out to prove. Even if one professes that the death penalty is not needed any more, which I would be open to hear proof for, to condemn it on a moral basis would be wrong and contrary to both the teachings of Scripture and the witness of Holy Tradition

>>723370

The death penalty legal process has become unnecessarily complicated in the United States, it is not an argument against killing in the slightest, but rather, an argument against our retarded legal system.

>>723370

think you're just talking to yourself cause you were literally responding to a guy saying its more expensive to execute, and your post argued against it by arguing for it lol

>>723371

>It doesn't cost more in principle

no shit, i dont think anyone is talking about it in principal, everyone is talking about it in practice.

>>723417

>>723418

My point is that capital punishment is not the problem here, it's the US's retarded legal system. The other countries which are big on the death penalty, even ones much bigger than the US, do not suffer this problem. It is a result of a supreme court doctrine that has led state governments to overspend and splurge on cases where the death penalty is pursued. The reason I say this is that the court system is winnie the poohed in the US and that is the cause, I hope you would agree in at least some sense. Though you are entirely free to just say that I am wrong on this matter. To be honest, I don't care any more. I am more concerned with the theology of it and can easily demonstrate that it is in line with Christian teachings.

>>721058

>Murder implies you are righteous enough to judge what killing is just, and what is not. It implies you are the one to decide who lives and who dies based on YOUR law and not GODS law

Dost thou not know of self defense? Purging degenerates? Removing tyrants? Anything of the sort?

>>723454

are you asking what the words self defense means?

>>722207

>It's actually cheaper to keep someone in jail for life than it is to handle all the logistic details of killing some one in america under the law

I need some frickin' good proofs and calculations before I believe this.

5 years in jail then dead vs 40 years is a big difference.

>What are the guidelines for man to decide when killing is justified?

What are the guidelines for man to decide when isolating a man with other criminals for life is justified? Sure you can lay out the obvious scenarios that make perfect sense to me and you. but that's only to me and you, and we are men. When men make rules, they make sense to men, just like when men sin, it makes sense for these men to sin. It does not mean that it is within God's laws.

As people with a juridical system we're bound to judge people for any crime they've committed.

We can even reduce the judgement by ourselves by adhering to the judgements God has given us in Leviticus (which includes death penalty).

I also notice that you ignored the rest of my argument that explains why the 6th commandment is "thou shalt not murder".

Were the Allies wrong to invade Normandy in WWII?

Was it wrong for civilians in the Levant to defend themselves against ISIS?

Is it wrong to keep a band of robbers from raping your wife (if this unlikely scenario would ever happen) if that means killing one of them?

Was it wrong of Christ to let Him get Himself killed for all of mankind?

Let's also look at the New Testament how Christ judged people who kill for a living.

<And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. -Luke 3:14

Why would there be an absolute prohibition on killing if Christ didn't ask them to stop?

>>721035

Execution is instructed in the Noahic covenant. Do you think God just contradicted himself later in the commandments?

>>723473

>I need some frickin' good proofs and calculations

Already posted.

>>723370

That site isn't an individual study. It's dozens of studies spread out across many states over lengthy periods of time. I'm sorry if it's tl;dr, but any massive study worth anything is going to be a very hefty read.

>>723593

There's one study worth reading and it shows some numbers (no calculations sadly).

proof enough that death penalty in America is somehow more expensive than a life sentence.

My question then is…why?

You're keeping a guy in a temporary jail and then execute him, this should cost way less than a life sentence.