/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>714397

>schismatics schismatizing

Poetic justice if you ask me. Honestly, it's been very fun watching Orhos go into full on damage control mode. There's the Russian propagandists who cry about it not being canonical, about giving in to Ukranian schismatics, there's the rest who try to minimize the effect of Russia and Serbia going into schism over cheap political theater.

>>714397

I don't into church politics, but tell me why is Ukrainian independence means a schism. Orthodoxy is pretty much a stand alone complex with structure, council, and synods. Each has their own ministry and stuffs but agree on the teachings. Correct me if I am wrong.

>>714446

Russia and Serbia? You mean Russia and Constantinople?

Yes, our bishops are being big babies. Well, yes and no. The Ecumenical Patriarch is tired of the irregular situation in Ukraine, especially as he sees the Ukrainians as his flock, and because the canonical Ukrainian church used to beg for autocephaly but now doesn't anymore, the EP thinks Patriarch Kyrill is bullying the canonical Ukrainians into staying under Moscow.

And I think the Russian bishops are acting like big babies. They could've worked to solve the situation in Ukraine but instead did barely any efforts, not helping the situation, "incidentally" making this fall in line with what Putin would like. They could've granted autocephaly to Ukraine and showed Constantinople that Moscow really is the spiritual shepherd of Ukraine, but now that Constantinople is tired of their bullshit they're crying and calling foul.

But the EP isn't entirely right either. This is an unilateral move, which almost always led to schism in the history of the Church. They should've reviewed the historical and canonical evidence with the other churches, at least. On top of that, there is theological context to this dispute: 1) a different understanding of economy and how to use the canons, and 2) a different understanding of primacy in the Church, precisely the Ecumenical Patriarch's universal primacy (if there even is such a thing). So this isn't just our bishops being big babies, this is two traditions having tension between each other. Which again is far from a new happenance in Church history.

I'll add another thing - besides the danger of internal schism (or even an end of eucharistic communion - lots of churches are taking Moscow's side…) there is the danger of violence in Ukraine. You have extremists on both sides who would rather die or kill than enter communion with the other. The EP recognizing the canonical status of the two schismatic Ukrainian churches is a very dangerous move. AND it also is giving them the message that their nationalist ideals behind wanting autocephaly are confirmed.

>>714472

Serbia will follow Russia because they're afraid the EP will do the same with Montenegro. Honestly, there's no reason for Russia controlling the church in Ukraine or Serbia in Montenegro. It's just a political power grab, I've had Russians openly tell me Ukranians are basically Russians anyway so they can't control their own church. I've heard Romania, Greece and Bulgaria will support Constantinople.

In my understanding, the EP established the Ukranian church, then handed it over to Russia, now it's taking it back, I see nothing uncanonical about it. Furthermore, this whole thing exposed the problems of the ecclesiology of the orthodox church. Who decides what is canonical or not? The majority? Who is in charge?

>>714397

Wait this means it's not schism right

>>714511

It's not a schism until excommunications and anathemas are issued. It's nothing yet.

OP is a tigger.

>>714476

Greece might be the only non-EP church to follow them, even then I give it only 66% likelihood. Literally every other church opposes this.

>>714520

Ok some people didn't like, it we are not gonna make a new schism over autistic jurisdictional issues. These threads only serve to spread fear and division between Orthodox.

>>714414

Delete this degenerate kikery immediately