/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>710165

>great men

>>710219

>>710240

he's not wrong

>>710165

Amen.

There is no justification for an institution which calls itself a church to condone executions.

Hus and Waldo are literally Catholics by Protestant standards

>>710261

“Sin of divination”

The irony of that picture.

Divination = communicating with spirits other than God.

Praying to saints =???

>>710314

The concept of mass, a clerical hierarchy, voluntary poverty and no sola fide.

They compromised their beliefs later on when the Reformation happened to join the kool kids klub and thus the modern-day Waldensians are nothing like the originals.

>>710325

>The concept of mass

They rejected transubstantiation.

>a clerical hierarchy

They rejected that any ecclesial body has the authority to call ministers, or give them authority to preach the gospel. They furthermore talked of the Pope as the whore of Babylon.

>voluntary poverty

There is no contradiction with traditional Protestantism here.

>no sola fide

<The Nobla Leycon

"For, I dare say, and it is very true,

That all the Popes which have been from Silvester to this present,

And all Cardinals, Bishops, Abbots, and the like,

Have no power to absolve or pardon,

Any creature so much as one mortal sin;

'Tis God alone who pardons, and no other."

It may not be explicitly sola fide, but it is most certainly against the Roman view about how we are forgiven of sins.

>>710325

>They compromised their beliefs later on

No one doubts that they changed their beliefs over time, but the question is whether they were originally closer to Protestantism than Catholicism.

The answer is clearly that they were.

>>710332

>They rejected transubstantiation.

Now that's a strawman.

I said they still held mass, even the Lutherans did/do without transubstantiation.

>They rejected that any ecclesial body has the authority to call ministers, or give them authority to preach the gospel. They furthermore talked of the Pope as the whore of Babylon.

>Every clerical hierarchy needs a pope

Let me quote Wikipedia quickly:

"Early Waldensians belonged to one of three groups:

Sandaliati (those with sandals) received sacred orders and were to prove the heresiarchs wrong

Doctores instructed and trained missionaries

Novellani preached to the general population"

>There is no contradiction with traditional Protestantism here.

Voluntary poverty is completely against protestantism since it's a form of asceticism and one might even say works.

>It may not be explicitly sola fide, but it is most certainly against the Roman view about how we are forgiven of sins.

Also La nobla Leyczon:

O Brethren, give ear to a noble Lesson,

We ought always to watch and pray,

For we see this world nigh to a conclusion,

We ought to strive to do good works,

>>710336

>No one doubts that they changed their beliefs over time

It was blatant compromising to get support from the big boys up in Zürich.

I doubt they still go out in old, simple clothes and preach voluntary poverty.

>>710340

>I said they still held mass, even the Lutherans did/do without transubstantiation.

Wrong. Lutherans do Divine Service, not Mass.

>wikipedia quote

<using (((wikipedia))) as a source

Anyway, so what if they had these? No one is saying they were perfect.

>Voluntary poverty is completely against protestantism since it's a form of asceticism and one might even say works.

There are Protestant religious orders that have nuns and monks, including Anglican, Lutheran, and even Methodist.

>We ought to strive to do good works,

Yes of course, we believe good works prove faith.

>>710261

>overthrow of m*narchies

>bad

>>710340

>I said they still held mass, even the Lutherans did/do without transubstantiation.

So then how does your point help your assertion that the Waldensian were closer to catholics than protestants.

>>Every clerical hierarchy needs a pope

Ok, but how then were they closer to Catholicism? Most Protestant Churches have clerical hierarchy under your definition.

>Voluntary poverty is completely against protestantism since it's a form of asceticism and one might even say works.

Neither asceticism, or works are contrary to the protestant faith.

>We ought to strive to do good works,

Neither asceticism, or works are contrary to the protestant faith.

>It was blatant compromising to get support from the big boys up in Zürich.

So? That doesn't mean that they were not closer to Protestantism than Catholicism when they began.

>>710165

Where's Waldo?

–Catholic authorities questioning the location of Peter Waldo

>>710340

>It was blatant compromising to get support from the big boys up in Zürich.

Because if you're a heavily persecuted group of Italian "heretics" and you want the persecution to stop so bad you're willing to compromise your beliefs, you're going to adopt the theology of a distant Swiss canton instead of the huge Europe-wide empire that is actually persecuting you

>this is what papists actually believe

>>710507

Woooow why were they trying to stop false teachers that Christ warned would come from ruining millions of souls. What big meanie heads :(

>>712147

see The Waldensian Dissent: Persecution and Survival, C.1170-c.1570

Book by G Audisio

>>710165

I've only learned about Hus recently, i don't even know the other two.

>Wycliffe was declared a heretic and attacked simply for translating the Bible and making it available to the people

Interesting. Nonetheless, i believe they were good people and their actions were motivated only by their love for Christ and his teaching so they have my full respect.

t. Orthodox

>>710363

Yeah man secular masonic republics are best lmao XD

Hail democracy!

>>710363

Yeah man secular masonic liberal republics are best lmao XD

Hail democracy!