/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

The concept of Hell was one of the biggest barriers to even trying to seek salvation, I had the frame of mind that God was wrathful towards sinners. I am still a newfriend but the idea of there being Purgatory (ask a Catholic brother, bc that's a common aspect of doctrine) greatly diminishes the anxiety I feel about just starting out. If I did anything especially egregious that I didn't know was sinful, it's helpful to know that God will grant me a degree of mercy by not damning my imperfect soul immediately because I had been saved through His Son, Jesus Christ.

>>597477

I don't really know anything about purgatory tell me more about it if you don't mind

>>597478

It is an overwhelmingly Catholic doctrine in which God, essentially purifies the souls of those who are too good for Hell, but not yet good enough for Heaven. It is temporary and the end goal is that one does get to Heaven.

>>597481

do you think that is a justified doctrine

>>597482

I'm too much of a newfriend to say for sure, but I don't see why God wouldn't extend to us this loving mercy. I need to go sleep, good night my brother. I hope that anons who are wiser and more experienced can give you the answer you seek.

>>597472

>For the crime of not believing that god suffered on the cross

Eh… our natural state is to be headed to Hell, Jesus' sacrifice was the way out. Of course it grieves our spirits to see people on their way to damnation, which is why we should be fervently winning souls.

>>597472

To many of us. If. IF. This, rotten ephemeral existence does not have Him. Then it is already decidedly HELL. (((They))) utterly screwed everyone, war, famine, disorder, AND absolutely nothing after death.

Hell is existence of not having Him. Why do you think atheists are miserable all the time and try so hard to compensate with "enlightenment".

>>597487

i agree the world is bleak but imagine being tortured forever because you got hit by a car while you were an atheist teenager

>>597489

I think our Lord knows all and sees all. He knows the folly of youth and with the enemys subversion going full steam in the C.Y. I want to believe that those who were deceived and raised in spiritual depravity of the 'secular society' will be given many chances during their life and at the hour of their demise to accept Him.

He will reach out to them. Just as I, and many of us here I believe, have been found by Him and returned to the flock.

Whatever happens, just remember it is Jesus who judges. We are judged by the standards of a being that is pure knowledge, source of all goodness, a being that cannot possibly err in any capacity AND by a kindly beggar in rags who could have snapped his fingers and shattered the entire arabian peninsula with a big ol hellfire meteor and instead just asked us not to sin until we hung him for it. And those are the same being.

>For the crime of not believing that god suffered on the cross for us

the demons belive this and shake, so this is not why people are in hell lad.

Orthodox: Hell is state of soul, when one is rebelling and actively resisting God's love

Catholicism: Hell is state of soul, when one is separating himself from God.

You do it yourself bud.

>>597503

Another anon; as you said an example of this is the criminal at the side of Jesus at the cross, certainly Jesus looks at the heart, and while that man was admiting that Jesus was the mesiah, surely if he could he would have studied and followed Jesus, and get baptized.

And Jesus saw all this at sight and told him that he would be in heaven with him.

Based off what the Bible says, I believe that humans condemned in hell will be destroyed and NOT be given eternal life. This is what the Bible calls the second death.

>>597472

It seems cruel until you realise that God makes himself known to everyone before they die and draws everyone to his Church. Then you realise to go to hell you must actively reject God and opt out of heaven. People go to hell because they hate God that they can't stand to be in union with him and would rather suffer in hell. It's actually very just.

>>597583

>Based off what the Bible says, I believe that humans condemned in hell will be destroyed and NOT be given eternal life. This is what the Bible calls the second death.

it doesnt

>>597616

Isaiah 66:

>22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

>23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

>24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Daniel 12:

>1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

>2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:

>6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

>7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

>8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

>9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Revelation 14:

>9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

>10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

>11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 10:

>10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

>14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

>15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

ann*hilationism should be declared as a heresy and propagators of this garbage should be publicly executed by burning or flaying

>>597583

>>597616

This is literally a heresy that was dealt with in the early church the name it went by I can't remember now

>>597655

>how would the pagans repay them?

>By killing and eating them, and refusing to convert.

What? Just that? They didn't stuff the infants of the preachers into footballs to play with them?

No masturbation machines that destroyed the loins of the missionaries?

No ancient gas chambers or something?

>they brought the pagans technology

What kind of technology and where did they get the knowledge for it?

This is a rhethorical question because the bible is not an instruction book on architecture or engineering, yet somehow the European pagans, which, I want to remind you, were ALL of them before Christianity came to greece, built all that cool stuff immediately upon hearing that you shouldn't boil goats in their mothers milk?

Of course not.

But such is the thinking that permeates the minds.

>Everybody is savages

>Christianity springs forth from the ground

>???

>TECHNOLOGY AND CIVILIZATION

>>597632

>>597649

I shouldn't have used that provoking trollin gif, which I knew would draw the reaction it did and incorrectly implied I think myself clued up about this stuff, which I don't. I can't respond to your scripture quotes because I'm still relatively new to the faith and don't know the ins and the outs and can have scripture battles like lots of you can on here. I would say though that for annihilationist those do not pose a problem and do not necessarily imply the traditionally espoused view of enternal concious torment (ECT). As far as I can remember the only scripture that posed any serious problem was "ever lasting life" used in contrast to "ever lasting punishment," whereby the annihilationist will respond, admitedly unconvincingly if you're a staunch holder of ECT, with "well it means that the consequences of the punishment are everlasting, not the punishment itself."

Similar to OP the question of hell was one of the most pressing for me in coming to faith, and ECT still troubles me somewhat deeply, despite knowing that God is perfectly just, which, should ECT be the truth, then I have to be satisfied resting in that knowledge. I won't lie and say I havn't spent nights dwelling on it being a possibility and weeping of the fact, though.

In summary, all I know is that from what I've seen/read is that a) the bible doesn't say enough concretely on the after life for anyone to be 100% sure, 2) the idea of our souls being immortal by default is a pagan idea not based in scripture ('conditional immortality' goes hand in hand with annihilationism) and 3) the ECT doctrine does not sit with the character of God as far as I can see inb4"stop with this subjective personal-interpretation 'as far as I can see' bs this is your brain on sola scriptura". Vid related is a good intro for curious anons.

The only decent expostion on the doctrine of ECT I've heard is TIm Keller's sermon which puts it in perspective: https://youtu.be/kMRCjvUXVEo (and also there was another one someone posted from sermonaudio.com that I can't remember but didn't bring anything new to the table was just a decent presentation of why ECT fits).

But again, ECT assumes either our souls are immortal by default and God cannot destory us, which is ridiculous, or that he will continue to sustain our existence simply to have us remain in the most horrendous reality imaginable. Like..wut? Seriously? What would be the point?

As I've said on here before, prior to being annihilated, I think it's possible that come judgement the revealing of reality (of the existince of God and Christ as saviour of humanity) will be incomprehesibly horrendous for the unrepentent, and many will be begging for continued existence even in an ECT situation, on the basis that they think that, existing in an ECT situaiton, as the alternative to heaven/new heaven and new earth which they chose to reject, can have at least some semblance of hope in an otherwise undescribable existence in the knowlegge that the God we know and love is real. That they can continue on in hell, but at least with the glimmer of light knowledge of him presents and in their torment they can think of him and pine for him and express regret and sorrow and holdfast to the idea that there is such a thing as perfection, as objective good, and love. At least in the knowledge that their existience actually has meaning. However this is only the unrepentant's fantasy, begging God for it to escape the real, true dread of annihilation.

As I posit, in view of the reality of God, the actual deal on the table, annihilation, will seem like the worse fate possible to them, considering the alternative that they could have had, but rejected. But it is in the annihilation of the unrepentant that God's justice and mercy will be made known perfectly, which are two sides of the same coin. But hey, maybe I'm just a trippy heretic. Like I say, I don't hold to annihilationism as 100% fact, it's just simply what makes most sense both logically and biblically and I strongly lean to it currently.

>>597632

>propagators of this garbage should be publicly executed by burning or flaying

Bit harsh, m8

>>597655

>These kind of people deserve Hell

I would't be able to bring myself to wish hell (ECT) on my worst enemies, and can't see how anyone who has thought about it enough or properly understood it's implications could.

>>597688

That actually is basically what happened in places like Britain.

>>597837 here phoneposting

>>597908

>Crimes against an eternal God deserve eternal punishment

Chapter and verse? The annihilationist would say that is an imposition of a medieval understanding of justice and is not based in scripture.

>>597908

> just know that you WILL be punished for it

Agreed, just not that that punishment constitutes ECT

>>597917

Your posts make me chuckle irisfag. They don't go unappreciated.

>>597919

Already posted in the thread, but since you decided to ignore it…

Isaiah 66:

>22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

>23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

>24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Daniel 12:

>1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

>2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:

>6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

>7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

>8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

>9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Revelation 14:

>9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

>10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

>11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 10:

>10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

>14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

>15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

>>597923

So?

People are punished according to their crimes

The lesser the crime, the lesser the punishment. Just as they are rewarded for their faith. The greater the faith, the greater the reward.

And what was he doing watching pokemon, reading comics and drawing cartoons instead of learning about the faith?

Even when I ws little and didn't care at all about religion I knew that God existed, and that I had to believe in Him to go to Heaven

By the way, 14 years old and know nothing about the faith? His,and his parents fault.

But ultimately its up to God to decide.

>>597927

>but since you decided to ignore it…

If you're referring me your quotations from my 'chapter and verse' request in >>597919 none of those verses state or imply ''crimes against an eternal God deserve eternal punishment," which is what I was asking for

>>597937

counter bump for antisage

God knows what he's doing and you creeps had better take heed lest you deceive others in your ignorance.

>but what if God was hypothetically unjust in this scenario I thought up?

This is crossing into disrespectful territory. Even accepting the premise is below the dignity that God deserves. Can it with the nonexistent problems.

Job 34:11-12

For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.

Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

>>597937

Its common logic.

To commit a crime against an infitnitely just and eternal God is to choose to receive an eternal punishment.

Remmember, Mankind's natural destination is Hell, not Heaven. Only through the Son's sacrifice is that the gates of Heaven have been opened to us. Christ sacrificed Himself for us, to free us from Hell. If you reject Him, then you are choosing Hell

>>597943

Oh and by the way, it's not your sense of justice that we're all beholden to either, annihilationist. We're all fallible, incapable of fathoming the actual damage that sin does or of judging what punishment it deserves. It's more than enough that you were told in advance what the punishment God decided is. You shouldn't be questioning it.

>>597958

This. You are completely right.

Do you have siblings, OP?

Let's say that you've loved your brother for your entire life, and suddenly you hear that your brother has been arrested and indicted for serial homicide and multiple counts of rape. The prosecution is seeking a lifetime sentence in a maximum security prison. At the moment you first hear, provided you have a positive relationship with your brother, you are incredulous. "He didn't do it! He doesn't deserve this!"

But let's say that you attend the court hearings and the prosecution provides exhibit after exhibit of evidence. They find murder weapons in his possession. They produce several samples of the victims' DNA taken from around his house and car. They play a video surveillance recording of him gagging a girl and pulling her into an alleyway. A part of you doesn't want to believe what you're seeing – this isn't the brother you've known for all these years! You love him, and you couldn't love a murderer!

Then, as the evidence mounts, your brother stands up and says, "Alright! I did it! I murdered and raped those girls! I knew it was wrong, and I didn't want to at first, but I did it anyway! And you know what? It felt good! I'm not sorry. I'd do it again!"

With that, you know that he deserves what is coming to him. You will still love him – he's you're brother. You will love the person you knew; the one who wasn't a killer. You will love the person he could have (and should have been). You will be cut off from him forever, but you will know that despite your love, this is justice, and you will mourn for the victims of his actions more than you will mourn for him.

—

At the end of time, when all knowledge is made known in the final judgement, everyone's sins will be laid bare. You will see every person who was ever hurt by a sin and all of destruction that every wrongful action caused. You will see how a "harmless white lie" ruined lives and how people knew what they should have done the whole time and simply disregarded moral conduct. You will see the luxury of the corrupt in contrast to the suffering of the people they slighted.

More importantly, though, you will see those who did terrible actions who suffered for them. You will see the remorse of the repentant. You will see the people who wanted nothing more than to take it all back. On the other hand, you will see the multitude of people who remained obstinate all the way up to their deaths – the people who never regretted it. You will see the people who were proud of their choice to exchange a little bit of pleasure or convenience for the suffering of others.

And once all of that is laid out before you, you will love everyone – who they were when they weren't sinning, who they could have been, and who they should have been. You will love everyone, but you will accept the justice. You will see that people who are not sorry for their sins and the destruction of the world do not deserve the goodness of God. They rejected Him as they rejected goodness. It's too late for them to change. They may want to change now, but you will know that their desire to change is disingenuous. They want to do good in the face of Hellfire, not because they regret their actions and love goodness, but because they love themselves and want to spare themselves the pain they've been trying so desperately to avoid their whole lives – no matter cost.

It's a matter of perspective. If you hate the world you see angels carrying you into heaven. If you love the world you see demons dragging you away into hell. Christ's church is not of this world.

>>597908

>Look at some examples of how 'great' pagan Rome was.

Last week everyone was a viking who took slaves, now everyone is a roman that buggered slaves.

Also, your video clips are nice showing some of the readily used "look at all those mud huts" of "primitive pagans".

>Listen here, I dont care about pagan 'civilization' or 'accomplishments'

So you don't care about the seed that enabled Christianity (which, coincidentaly, is god eating demon worship as well) ?

The skills of building temples and frameworks of philosophy and so forth?

And don't tell me they didn't have that, the thumbnail of the second webm shows a freaking forum.

Anyway, I see no moral or civilized upgrade from pagan rome under the mantle of Catholicism.

I know, not all Christanons are Catholics, but without catholicism there would be very little to point at for "Look how much Christian stuff Europe had!1".

If one had to summarize Catholicism today, "degenerate" would be one of the most fitting summaries one could think of.

>Uh they were cool at some point

Maybe the romans were, too.

>>598092

>If one had to summarize Catholicism today, "degenerate" would be one of the most fitting summaries one could think of.

You know, treasonous, cannibalistic, child sodomizing, heretical even in the context of classic Catholicism, etc.

In fact, the Catholic church in Europe is so bad that I can see the people in the future using it to show the then global Christian minority how backwards things were before people returned to the true powers of whitey.

>>598030

>matter is bad

>spirit is good

Careful never go full gnostic

The scandal and nonsense I see in this thread is staggering. I'm locking it.