/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>570941

They're neither. They're the worst sort of fencesitters out there. They can't be called Jews, because Jews reject Jesus and they accept Jesus. However, they can't be called Christians because they believe in a heresy so old it's talked about in-depth in The Bible. They reject the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice because they believe you must follow the law of Moses, but they don't believe in the Rabbis who dissect and debate the law of Moses. They have no coherency and most of them aren't even ethnically Jewish. I know Jews who actually converted to Christianity, and they just left their old culture behind, they didn't become Messianics.

>>570943

But Peter and Paul and James and all the apostles were Jews. Jesus was a Jew. At the very least they're Jews.

>>570941

I think it's like a transitory phase into a full understanding of new life in Christ. Sanctification through the old covenant was what they knew, and it must be hard to leave.

>>570941

I really don't understand this group. You literally can't be Jewish (religiously) if you accept Christ. Like wtf.

>>570944

Peter, Paul, James, and Jesus were not Jews, they were Christians. There are two things meant by the word "Jew": ethnic Jews (Hebrews/Israelites) and religious Jews (followers of Judaism). Ethnically they were Jewish, but religiously they were Christians. They believed in Christianity, not Judaism. Messianic Jews mix the religion of Judaism with the religion of Christianity, and it ends up with them being rejected by both Jews and Christians. Peter, Paul, James, and Jesus didn't follow the religion of Judaism, they followed Christianity. Peter, Paul, James, and Jesus also weren't these syncretic heretics, who mixed Judaism with Christianity. They followed Christianity in it's fullness and abandoned Judaism completely. Messianic Judaism isn't Judaism, Messianic Judaism isn't Christianity, and Messianic Judaism isn't the religion of Peter, Paul, James, or Jesus.

>>570946

You'd be surprised the kinds of things jews can accept while still being jews. there are a ton of atheist jews, a concept which really doesn't make sense at all.

>>570949

But Judaism is neither a religion or ethnic group. People who convert to Judaism from a gentile background, when they have kids, their kids are all their kids (provided it comes from the maternal side according to the Orthodox) are considered Jewish forever. Judaism is more of a identity confirmed by other Jews and God.

Furthermore, Christianity began as a sect of Judaism and didn't formally split until about 70-132 A.D. There were many Jewish Christian communities in the early Church that weren't necessarily Judaizers. Take the Jerusalem community that James led, for example, or the Jewish Christian community in Syria that Matthew wrote to, or the Johannine Community in Turkey that were part of the diaspora and possibly had connection to the original Jerusalem community. There also was the author of Revelation, John of Patmos, a Jewish Christian prophet, and probably not the only of his kind. These communities range from 33-95 A.D. Many of them still followed the law of Moses without being Judaizers. They kept Jewish culture while still being Christian. The gentile Jewish communities set up by Paul and others did not feel the need to continue to follow Jewish customs, and soon became the dominate strain of Christianity. Jewish Christian groups did continue to exist even after the full break of Judaism and Christianity though, but mostly within the confines of heretical groups like the Ebionites and the Nazarenes.

Peter, James, and Paul were Jewish Christians. Paul went to the gentiles, James went to the Jews, and Peter went to both. Jesus was fully Jewish and religiously Jewish. His whole context was Jewish. He founded a second temple Jewish sect that became Christianity. How could Jesus be a Christian? A Christian is a follower of Christ, how can Jesus follow himself? That would make no sense. A Christian is someone baptized into Jesus. How could Jesus be baptized into himself? How could he join his Church? He is the head of the Church.

I agree that Messianic Judaism is pretty stupid at times, some of them are just gentile Pentecostals who like Jewish culture, but there are some genuinely Jewish Messianic groups out there.

>>570944

Read Galatians 3:28. There is neither greek nor hebrew for all are one in Christ. And if you are Christs then you are heirs according to the promise. But if you are the ecclesasties 3:18-21 then romans 8:8 applies.

>>570946

Physical jews are no longer kikes if they are christians in line with 1 corinthians 15:44. Although due to their physically lineage they might be more cunning/prone to deciet.

It started out as an attempt to evangelize Jews by telling them they could still be Jewish and be Christian since the first Christians were Jewish. I've actually heard that the majority of them are gentiles who are LARPing as Jews because they are evangelicals who are in love with Israel and everything Jewish. If true that's sort of hilarious. I'm sure some of them are saved and good Christians. The problem is they integrate things in their services just because they are 'Jewish' even if they have nothing to do with anything Jesus would have practiced. This includes practices introduced to Judaism long after Christ. Some of them are legalists and still try to follow the law of Moses, the dietary laws, the sabbath and so on. I think it differs from congregation to congregation. Some are really wildly offbase and some are relatively normal Christians who use some Jewish words and symbols as a sales gimmick to try to draw Jews in.

>>570953

Jesus was a Christian, Peter was a Christain, Paul was a Christian, James was a Christian. They were not Jews, and if you're just crypto-shilling for Messianic Judaism I'm not interested. They were all baptized, they all believed Jesus is the Christ, and they all believed Jesus rose again and sits at the right hand of the Father. Those are all Christian beliefs. If you want to argue that Jesus couldn't be Christian because etymologically Christian means "follower of Christ," then that just makes him Jesus the Christ: head of the Christians. He didn't believe in Judaism or teach Judaism, he taught Christianity. Sage cause this is yet another thread where someone pretends they're innocently inquiring about a heresy but reveals they actually are a heretic shilling for their false doctrine.

>>570957

I am not denying that Peter or Paul or James were Christians, they certainly were. They were Jewish Christians. And you're right, Jesus is head of the Christians, therefore he himself cannot be a Christian. Jesus is a Jew who practiced Judaism and founded Christianity as a Jewish sect. Christianity rose within the context of second temple Judaism. Christianity was at one time, for about its first 40-100 years, a Jewish sect before splitting off.

And no, I am not a Messianic Jew, and I already said I agree that some aspects of Messianic Judaism are really stupid. But if you're going to be continue to be retarded low IQ Baptist, fine then.

>>570957

People here should use "Talmudist", or something of the like, as a term more often to clear the air as from what I can tell, Jew means a billion different things.

>>570952

That's why I said religiously.

>>570969

That's accurate in accordance with the religious side of Judaism, being Jewish isn't strictly a religion or an ethnicity. It's an identity that has religious schools of thought within it.

The Apostle says (Galatians 5:2): "If you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." But nothing save mortal sin hinders us from receiving Christ's fruit. Therefore since Christ's Passion it is a mortal sin to be circumcised, or to observe the other legal ceremonies.

I answer that, All ceremonies are professions of faith, in which the interior worship of God consists. Now man can make profession of his inward faith, by deeds as well as by words: and in either profession, if he make a false declaration, he sins mortally. Now, though our faith in Christ is the same as that of the fathers of old; yet, since they came before Christ, whereas we come after Him, the same faith is expressed in different words, by us and by them. For by them was it said: "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son," where the verbs are in the future tense: whereas we express the same by means of verbs in the past tense, and say that she "conceived and bore." In like manner the ceremonies of the Old Law betokened Christ as having yet to be born and to suffer: whereas our sacraments signify Him as already born and having suffered. Consequently, just as it would be a mortal sin now for anyone, in making a profession of faith, to say that Christ is yet to be born, which the fathers of old said devoutly and truthfully; so too it would be a mortal sin now to observe those ceremonies which the fathers of old fulfilled with devotion and fidelity. Such is the teaching Augustine (Contra Faust. xix, 16), who says: "It is no longer promised that He shall be born, shall suffer and rise again, truths of which their sacraments were a kind of image: but it is declared that He is already born, has suffered and risen again; of which our sacraments, in which Christians share, are the actual representation."

tl;dr they are sinners of worst kind for they know that they sin and yet continue.

>>570941

Ethnically they are jews. Spiritually they are protestant.

if they ain't catholics they're heretics AT BEST

I just want to point out most Lubavitcher Jews believe the dead rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the messiah, yet other Jews still consider the Lubavitchers to be Jews. So it's okay for a Jew to believe the messiah has come and still be considered a Jew, unless that messiah is Jesus (found this video on Hotwheels' twitter).

>>571328

>baptist flag

>posting video from hw's twitter

Hi Hotwheels. :)

> Be original church

> Church fathers convert the gentiles and jews to Christianity

> Jewish customs are largely transformed into Christian ones

> As a result, early Christians were borderline anti-semitic

> Many years later

> Protestants divorce themselves from Catholic church

> They're still anti-semitic though

> Many many years later

> Evangelicals go full MUH BIBLE mode and memorize the old testament

> Begin to admire old Jewish traditions (since they themselves have abandoned old Catholic-Orthodox traditions)

> Begin to Judaize the others

> Become pro-Israel pro-Jew ecumenicals

> Many years after this

> Evangelical protestantism reaches full circle

> Even the Jews become evangelicals

> Jewish people convert to Christianity but keep old Jewish customs (despite apostles advising against it) because of memes and Larping

good tradition, 10/10

>>571019

I don't know if I would say they're sinners. I would just say they are wasting their time and pursuing vain, pharisaical customs that were explicitly condemned by early Church authorities.

It's like, imagine if someone asks you to help build a rocket ship, and you use 50% of your time working on the rocket, and spend the other 50% building wooden boats. Why? You're just wasting your time and not being helpful.

And if you Judaize other people, that's like causing other people to waste their time too. It's nonsense.

Even worse is when historical revisionists think that modern day Jews, and even worse, modern day Messianic Jews (aka Jewish Evangelical Protestants) have some sort of ancient Christian tradition. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!

All the ancient Jews who respected Christ CONVERTED to Christianity, and the Christian communities we have today (especially the Coptic Arabs, Melkites, Arab Greek Orthodox, and Maronite Catholics in the Middle East) are the continuation of these ancient Jews.