/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Either the people in purgatory are living saints undergoing purification or they're demons. I'd say it's pretty inconclusive if taken as proof either for or against.

>>568498

As I said, this is not about argumentation but I'll point something out for your sake. You're saying that demons come to people and ask them to pray for them and ask them to ask priests to say masses for them. That doesn't make sense.

> I don't want this to turn into a debate about purgatory,

too late

>>568501

That makes perfect sense if you're anything but Roman Catholic

>>568516

>the gates of hades shall not prevail

Do you really think that God will let His Church be corrupted ?

>>568518

don't you hold that the reformation was a corruption of the true gospel?

>>568515

>>568516

Believe what you will gentlemen, as I said, I'm not gonna debate. My intention was for my fellow Catholics to be reminded how we can't enter on a whim or to say a prayer for someone in their family, that is all.

Yeah, I know, no debate, but…

… why do you guys need to pray for those in Purgatory if their salvation is already guaranteed and they're merely undergoing obligatory purification before they can enter Paradise?

>>568520

reformers cut themselves out of the Church by their own will

>>568529

why do you need to say the Jesus Prayer if you can just go to mass and take the sacraments? Why should saints pray for you on earth when God decides how much grace you receive anyway?

I'll let you ponder on that and how low-effort what you asked was.

>>568535

>why do you need to say the Jesus Prayer if you can just go to mass and take the sacraments? Why should saints pray for you on earth when God decides how much grace you receive anyway?

But salvation is not guaranteed for me, here and now. No matter how much I pray the Jesus Prayer or go to church, or ask the saints for their intercession, I can still return to my own vomit.

But those in Purgatory cannot change their trajectory, yes?

>>568540

>But those in Purgatory cannot change their trajectory, yes?

they cannot, but with our prayers we can make their trajectory shorter, just like saints in heaven with their prayers can appeal to give us more graces and help us obtain salvation.

>>568538

>but doesn't that mean a christian can become degenerate?

yes, we can all fall into sin and disobedience

>i thought you were arguing that God wouldn't allow his bride to become corrupted?

by that logic the Church was already corrupted since Judas, you obviously don't understand what the concept entails and what it means

>>568528

Am I censoring you? No, I'm just saying I have no intention to argue about this. You want to criticize it? Fine, I don't care, but I'd like this thread to be on point and you're derailing it because your ego can't stand people talking about this without you trying to impose yourself as some bringer of truth to pagans or whatever. I saw there's a Baptist general here. Did I go in there to try to talk you into praying for saints' intercession? No.

>>568540

Read the link. Firstly, in the highest level of Purgatory, God does not allow the prayers of the people on earth to help the souls on that level, their torment is their longing to see God, yet they're unable to see Him.. Secondly, yes, all souls might be saved, but we pray for them to shorten their suffering.

>>568541

But what matters is salvation, not the obstacles that get on the way. Why does the length of the trajectory matter if salvation is guaranteed anyway? Wouldn't it be more fruitful to pray for those who are not guaranteed salvation?

>>568545

>But what matters is salvation, not the obstacles that get on the way

You are basically saying you reject charity for the souls in purgatory as if that was something to be proud of.

>Why does the length of the trajectory matter if salvation is guaranteed anyway?

because the purification in Purgatory is very painful and it's a charitable act to shorten it.

>Wouldn't it be more fruitful to pray for those who are not guaranteed salvation?

You can do both, you know? This whataboutism is distasteful

>>568550

>You are basically saying you reject charity for the souls in purgatory as if that was something to be proud of.

They already have their gifts, don't they?

I'm only asking this theoretically, since Purgatory is a heresy in Orthodoxy.

>because the purification in Purgatory is very painful and it's a charitable act to shorten it.

But again, why does this matter? They have their salvation in hand already.

>You can do both, you know? This whataboutism is distasteful

The sacrifice of the Mass is offered not just for Purgatory, but also for those in Hell? I didn't know, I'm sorry. I'm not a Catholic, as you can see.

>>568556

>>568553

>The sacrifice of the Mass is offered not just for Purgatory, but also for those in Hell?

No, you said "not guaranteed salvation", so I thought you were speaking about praying for people on earth.

> I didn't know, I'm sorry. I'm not a Catholic, as you can see.

Yes I know you're a schismatic

>But again, why does this matter? They have their salvation in hand already.

Again, all you are saying is that you hate charity towards them, very unchristian and very grasping at straws.

>I'm only asking this theoretically, since Purgatory is a heresy in Orthodoxy.

Some Orthodox believe in Purgatory, I am pretty sure you did not declare it a heresy because you cannot declare any dogma anyway

>>568556

>we also know that the prophecies of the Messiah foretold His betrayal by the hands of one of those closest to Him

But he didn't repent. Again, this is not a problem for me, but for you. According to your logic the Church was corrupted because Judas was corrupted. I hold no such belief.

>so wouldn't that suggest that it was always God's 'will' that there would be the corrupt and unrighteous amongst the flock - men intending evil, but God working it for good?

God does not wish for people to be evil, people do it one their own. Nobody is destined to damnation by God but by themselves.

> demonstrating that there will always be corrupted unregenerates within the ranks, doing the work of their father the devil?

Christ's kingdom is not of this world, although it is also in the world. Evil people will always exist until the end times. Again none of this implies that the gates of hell prevailed, if anything it shows the opposite so I don't understand what you are getting at.

why is this narcissistic old lady posting pictures of herself

I just wanted to say that I like to read such things. Thank you OP for posting this.

>>568571

Oh I like conflict, however it is not the purpose of this thread. But speaking of public forums, do you have a habit in real life maybe where you hear 2 people talking and you immediately have to jump in with your 2 cents? This is an issue of free speech, it's an issue of maturity. I think most protestants are doomed. Does it mean I have to say it to every protestant I encounter? Do I have to pull out 100 Bible quotes every time I talk to one on the internet?

Furthermore, you're just being obnoxious with your huge spacing and images, your posts have occupied the majority of this thread and you have effectively derailed it. Did you convert anyone? I highly doubt it.

>>568581

Just ignore him, go open the link I posted, it's very interesting stuff.

>>568582

You're welcome. Btw, if you want more stories like this, go read about st. padre Pio. He had the stigmata and was truly a living saint.

>>568580

>woah woah woah hold on there pal - you were the one who used Judas as an illustration - not me

only because you said here that the reformation meant a corruption of the true gospel. The gospel wasn't corrupted, the reformers just rejected it, just like Judas did. My example was only trying to bring you to reflection, but you are clearly more interesting in posting smug pictures while speaking emptily.

> Judas was at one time a part of the Church or a Believer

Yes, he certainly was like all apostles

>'gone out from us, because they were never part of us'

If your faith is weak, you will lose it. That does not mean that Judas did not have faith at some point, and does not mean that his faith could not have become stronger had he repented and asked for forgiveness.

You really should not hold such a belief, considering you are a protestant, because being one that would mean you werde destined to damnation. I don't hold that belief of course, but you shouldn't either for your own good.

>holding to a view that God decrees that wicked men with devil's doctrines will always be within the number of professing believers, seeking to lead astray anyone who will follow them

no man is good, we're all plagued by concupiscence. No man is a demon, all can repent and convert. Those who don't, do so out of their own will, nobody is predisposed to be evil.

>since it would seem on the evidence that throughout the History of Christ's Bride, there have always been false doctrines both within and without the the ecclesia, then it is possible that error and heresy can arise within Her ranks

The heresy never takes over the Church completely though, and most of the times when it does, the heretics simply break away, as it was the case with the reformers. To abandon the Church because there are heretics in it means to apostasize, because it means you don't believe Christ's promise; and all those who break away from the Church always end up becoming heretics anyway, since they are not protected by Christ against heresy anymore.

> that such calamity has befallen so as to purify His Bride from filth and so turn to Him

God does not decree that men will do evil, but he may allow those who do evil to do so with less hindrance. He does not propel those evil men to do evil though, there is a big difference.

I have only answered you because I am bored, you are just a troll and a poor one at that.

>>568583

> I think most protestants are doomed. Does it mean I have to say it to every protestant I encounter? Do I have to pull out 100 Bible quotes every time I talk to one on the internet?

well yes

yes i rather think you do

if you sincerely believe that protestants are 'doomed' - by which i take you to mean; eternal separation from the One who is Life, with no chance of reprieve from being under the infinite Wrath of God against unrepentant rebellion - then as a follower of the Christ who told you to love everyone including your enemies, you should definitely be about the business of pointing them to the Truth else they perish and the blood be on your hands

yes

now obviously there's context and situation, so while in the workplace you probably shouldn't be constantly arguing with the prots about returning to the true faith, since it would be dishonouring to God to dishonour one's employer

but on the public forum of the internet where everything is being discussed and you have opportunity to share Jesus with everyone, even if they say something so naive in an OP as 'i don't want this to turn into a debate' when the whole purpose of these places existing is to engage in dialogue - the *chans especially and notoriously so?

the only mature response is to get stuck in right up to your elbows

>>568584

your problem is that you think man's will supersedes God's will

>>568589

>your problem is that you think man's will supersedes God's will

No I don't. Men have free will because God willed it, it doesn't come from them.

>>568496

Interesting, thanks for sharing this ! We should all pray for the dead.