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File: 646c28394e14b47⋯.jpg (48.87 KB, 469x596, 469:596, C9nq8_cV0AASU4l.jpg)

450c51 No.545697

What was the Catholic Church's position on Islam in medieval times, and why does this verse appear in their catechism today? When did it get introduced?

<841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "….the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

How could any serious theologian, imply that muslims and Catholics adore the God that exists, the Holy Trinity, and Christ the Judge? This makes no sense.

What happened to the ancient attitude they had, pic related?

163fe5 No.545702

>>545697

Not related but I love Spain and Spanish


9b9516 No.545705

What I'm reading is this

> these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

And I think this is implied

> these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they profess to adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.


450c51 No.545709

>>545705

>And I think this is implied

that would be a very generous reading of it. But it would still be incorrect because from the Islamic point of view they do not profess such a thing, otherwise they would be committing "shirk".


7fba56 No.545710

File: b260d3e6277d96b⋯.webm (4.84 MB, 640x480, 4:3, Fr. Hesse on the Muslims ….webm)

Vatican II heresy. It's not Catholic.


450c51 No.545712

>>545710

Is Vatican 2 "ex cathedra" ? I mean, how official is it? I don't understand how dogmas become dogmas for you guys.


7fba56 No.545713

File: 8fe98824d37f4e9⋯.mp4 (2.91 MB, 480x360, 4:3, Cardinal Stickler's Canon ….mp4)


7fba56 No.545714

>>545712

It's not dogma, because dogma cannot be changed.


450c51 No.545716

>>545713

Thanks for the vid, I hope he's right.


4db40a No.545721

>>545712

Vatican 2 is indeed ex cathedra. However it was purely pastoral and introduced no new dogmas. As Bishop Fulton Sheen says the tell tale mark of the workings of the holy spirit from council is the counter effect of the anti spirit that rises to create tension and division just like after nicaea with the church being driven underground because of rampant Arianism.


48a845 No.545750

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

FOR FUCK SAKE YOU GUYS

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Mission - a requirement of the Church's catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. "Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men":339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340

332 LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53.

333 LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25.

334 St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9:PL 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118:PL 16,297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21.

335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:PL 3,1169; De unit.:PL 4,509-536.

336 LG 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.

337 LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.

338 AG 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

339 AG 1; cf. Mt 16:15.

340 Mt 28:19-20.

Watch vid related

And this guy>>545710 is catholic parody of Old Belivers


d0de00 No.545760

File: 6f8b465f194cfb4⋯.jpg (32.33 KB, 500x516, 125:129, catholic.jpg)

Just to clear things up first: the Sedevacantists in this thread are Protestants in denial, remove your flags.

>>545697

Read the Catechism a few lines down. We basically look at the Muslims as we do at Jews, they profess to have faith in the Abrahamic God. The key word is profess.

This is what St. Pope John Paul II said about Islam and the Koran:

<Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside. Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the World, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection(p. 92).

Now for the Catechism, a few lines down:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

>All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

>Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334


d0de00 No.545761

File: 2bfe7bf42c97c35⋯.jpg (93.68 KB, 768x960, 4:5, 17523203_10155241339749204….jpg)

>>545697

>>545760

PART 2

Just below the last verse from the CCC that I posted is this:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

>Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

>Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Mission - a requirement of the Church's catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. "Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men":339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

Post last edited at

cd75c0 No.545791

File: 8830cacb21480b3⋯.jpg (99.83 KB, 736x558, 368:279, d77cd6e4fbe718c36a8bf46e6a….jpg)

The first pope to encounter Islam actually believed it to be a heresy, like Arianism. Really it kinda is. They worship our God, YAHWEH, but forsake Christ for just another prophet. They can be converted and convinced of their wrong doing though.

I prefer Muslims to non-Abrahamists any day.


0ea08d No.545794

>>545697

>What was the Catholic Church's position on Islam in medieval times

I don't know about the the general view people had about the issue in Medieval times, but Aquinas seems to say that Islamic Islamic philosophers who used natural theology to learn about God really talked about God, not some fictitious being or a demon, and I don't know of any controversy associated with this in his times.

>When did it get introduced?

The 1907 entry on Allah (and a later, 1911 one on Mohammed and Mohammedanism) in Catholic Encyclopedia, which is still one of the most important sources on Catholicism, casually talks about Allah as being God without mentioning any controversies or contrary opinions, which it usually does whenever any ones exist, so I assume it has been consensus for a long time.

>How could any serious theologian, imply that muslims and Catholics adore the God that exists, the Holy Trinity, and Christ the Judge? This makes no sense.

http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2015/12/christians-muslims-and-reference-of-god.html?m=1

>What happened to the ancient attitude they had, pic related?

I suppose different historical context, we don't live during the Reconquista anymore. It's not contrary to the words of Catechism though.


510ba3 No.545831

>>545697

Try reading the rest of the catechism you snake in the grass

>>545761

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

>>545760

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS

THIS


cbc169 No.545844

>>545791

>They worship our God, YAHWEH

lol


cb5e8d No.545845

File: 9159c266c47774c⋯.jpg (56.65 KB, 800x900, 8:9, chadchrist.jpg)

>>545791

While I too prefer Muslims to Non-Abrahamists, they dont worship our God YAHWEH. They worship Allah.

And before someone tells me that Allah is just their way of saying 'God', look at their Creed in English: 'There is just one God that is Allah and Mohammed is his prophet'.

Notice how Allah is treated like a name.

If it was just a way to say God, it would be really weird, like that: There is just one God that is God and Mohammed is his prophet'.

Also, people who deny that Jesus Christ is God deny God, for anyone who forsakes the Son also forsakes the Father. They can call thenselves anything they want, but just like JW call thenselves christians but aren't, Muslims can call themselves followers of the True God, but they arent.


cb5e8d No.545846

File: 6db8371ec1cf94e⋯.jpg (145.42 KB, 960x960, 1:1, Aquinas on Islam.jpg)

File: bd7f29a08cf8ff3⋯.jpg (400.85 KB, 2486x1434, 1243:717, St Bosco on Islam.jpg)

File: deddbd9bfb0fe1b⋯.png (784.81 KB, 1040x700, 52:35, St. Thomas Aquinas on Isla….png)

>>545697

I dont know how to answer your question OP, since I am not very well versed on Medieval Politics, but I think the opinions of the Saints can say a lot about what was the general view on Islam by the Catholics of the time.


bd90fe No.545866

>>545845

Go to /islam/ and ask them if they worship YAHWEH. God has many names, Elohim, Jehovah, whatever. They very bluntly say they worship the God of Abraham, YAHWEH. There isn't this need to be deliberately ignorant and try worm around that they worship YHWH, they just do it wrong. They need to accept Jesus Christ as God's son and Humanity's redeemer, and because they are fellow Abrahamists/Monotheists like us, it makes it all the easier. In Arabic God has a ton of names.


bd90fe No.545867

>>545845

Arab Christians also call god "Allah".


7fba56 No.546051

>>545760

>the Sedevacantists in this thread are Protestants in denial, remove your flags.

Where? Does the denial of Vatican 2 make you a sede? Don't act like a brainlet anon.


5f13aa No.546113

>>545866

Jesus is YHWH. Do they worship Jesus? If not, then they do not worship YHWH.

>>545867

I know plenty of Mexicans named "Jesus". Are they your savior?


c8fdb7 No.546119

>>545831

>Try reading the rest of the catechism you snake in the grass

>try obscuring the issue with other verses

No I was particularly interested in this part: "and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." — the notion that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God.

If I quoted other verses about muslim salvation or salvation outside the church the issue would be obscured. I am being specific. You shouldn't call me a "snake" for focusing on an issue.


aba536 No.546124

>>546113

I guess the Jews don’t worship IHVH either by that logic. Mohammed absolutely ranks as one of the most detestable false prophets in history, but Islam qualifies as an extreme heresy as much as Mormonism or Mandaeism.


5f13aa No.546140

>>546124

>I guess the Jews don’t worship IHVH either by that logic

Now you're getting it

<No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.




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