/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>540844

A broad varieties of views are held and can be considered orthodox on this issue. Scripture can be read multiple ways on this topic. Sorry fam

I apologize for this not being exactly on topic, but could a kind anon brother please pray for my cat? I know, it seems silly and childish, but I've done all else I can. I am trying to find my way back to Christ but I don't post here due to my own views that a journey of faith is to be an intimately personal and solitary one. I am in my mid twenties and I have no friends. Two maybe but I see them maybe once every other month or so, text every few days. My cat, my Muffin (I know, it's stupid but my reasoning was that I didn't want to change it much from what my sister had originally named her: Mistachio) is my best friend. She's got a leg that broke and healed at an awkward angle before my sister found her and she's just best. I just want her to come home. I'm sorry my ramblings, I thought I'd be more composed and am usually better at writing than this but I am not well this evening. I'm sorry anons, I won't take up more of your time. I offer endless appreciation towards those whom may choose to aid me through prayer, and gentle thanks to all who have even read this. Thank you anons.

>>540854

Thank you for sharing your feelings. I hope your cat gets better. I don't think many of us have friends here besides God, because otherwise I think very little number of people would visit image boards.

You however need to not rely on animals for happiness, because most die in our lifetimes. Seek the word of God for long-term happiness and companionship with Jesus. The very fact that the Bible doesn't mention animals going to heaven is testament to how important we are in God's eyes compared to the rest of his creation.

Almost certainly not.

Why isn't anyone answering the question that I posted for the thread?

>>540844

Nope, most likely not.

Only immortal creations are Humans and Angels.

>>540875

Then where do they go? Animals have feelings and they have to go somewhere when they die too?

On one hand, the gospel only concerns the salvation of human beings. It is, after all, we who fell from grace.

On another hand, Paul seemed to believe that all of creation will be redeemed. If the earth and the grass will be redeemed, I don't see why animals would need to be destroyed.

>>540911

I doubt that it refers to literally every individual animals, but to their kind and all nonhuman life in universe in general, but not every single being that existed and was sloughtered.

>>540844

From a slightly panpsyhcist point of view, I think so. I know dogs, cows, and dolphins (as well as other animals, I just remembered these three off the top of my head) are all about as intelligent as a young child. I imagine they have feelings and "thoughts" to an extent, even if they cannot think on the order of humans. I've had dogs be happy to see you or try to bother you to do stuff, or come get my attention when something's up. I'd like to think that the same supreme being that has our backs covered when it comes to death wouldn't let these compassionate creatures be obliterated.

I think, if the good people in heaven so desired it, God wouldn't have an issue bringing animals along.

Animals wouldn’t go to heaven for their own sake, but maybe they will be resurrected for our sake.

>>540854

I will pray for Muffin. I think thats a great name for a cat.

Will also pray for you Anon and your journey of faith. May God bless you.

>>540844

No because of ecclesasties 3:18-21

in the book of Jonah we see God reprimand the prophet for wishing destruction upon the city of Ninevah

God had sent him to warn the city to repent, and Jonah runs off in the other direction by sea, only to have a storm terrify his shipmates and ask whose God had been offended - Jonah speaking up to say 'me, it's my God doing this, thrown me into the ocean' whereupon he was swallowed by a great fish (and likely died) for 3 days, before being vomited up on a shore and making his way to Ninevah

now here's the thing, Jonah was a bit of a big old racis and he really hated Ninevah - but he's possibly just been bleached white by some fish digestive juices, had to make an arduous journey from where he was puked onto land, walks through the city gates looking like he's been mauled by a megalodon, and immediately tells them of their doom… and a figure like that could be somewhat compelling just for his appearance, so the whole city repents in sackcloth and ashes

well Jonah gets mad and goes off in a huff and sits on a hill overlooking the city, and squabbles with God, saying; "i know You are merciful, and i knew that if they repented you would hold back your wrath, and now you're being merciful to them just like i knew you would be'' and he was maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

so God causes a little vine plant to grow up next to Jonah, and it gives Jonah shade for the day, but the next day it is all withered and Jonah is fuming under the hot sun and bemoaning the fate of the little vine… feeling sorry for it

and God says to him; "Jonah, do you feel sorry for the little plant? Well here before you is a great city of thousands of souls, many of them children who don't know their right hand from their left… and there's innocent animals in there too."

and so God is basically saying that even a wicked city full of wicked people whom a holy prophet could legitimately despise for their wickedness, was still under God's watchful gaze and able to receive God's mercy should He so choose

… but you're probably wondering what my point is, huh?

well go back up there a little bit, and look at the line talking about children not knowing their left from their right - and if you remember in Genesis when early man didn't know the difference between good and evil, he was innocent… and God is similarly saying such babby are 'innocent'

now 'innocent' is a legal definition, and conversely, once a person comes to an age of understanding yet still does what is wrong, they are 'guilty' - so while children may have inherited a Sin nature from our first parents in Genesis, they are regarded by God as 'innocent' before His Judgement Seat

but look to the animals next… God declares animals to be 'innocent', and even mentions their lives as being sacred to Himself when it comes to destroying a wicked city or not

we might also remember that when God demanded sacrifices of the Jews, He required animal sacrifice - not primarily because it cost them to raise an animal - but because only a innocent sacrifice could propitiate God's Wrath, and man is not innocent

well one man was, the God-man, Christ Jesus

yet all that to say, animals are declared legally 'innocent' before the throne of God - being part of the creation which God declared 'good' upon making it, and only suffering as all creation suffers under a curse for the Sin of man

and we also know from the Hebrew words for animals, that from the earliest time they were considered to have spirit or soul - one evidence for the belief that animals have being, being the curse upon serpents for allowing satan to enter them

so if animals are legally declared innocent by God, and if animals have soul, then there is quite a lot of evidence that such beings would continue into the next life - and allowed entry into paradise

but y'know what, if they don't have continued existence after this life, Heaven will be no less sweet for the Believer - since Christ the Creator and fulfilment of Man's soul is everpresent in Eternity, and He is all that a one needs, for He is the source of every good thing

of course, if you are not a Believer in Christ, then you should be more concerned about your own eternal fate rather than that of pets which have passed - for to be eternally separated from He who is the source of all Life, is eternal and tormenting Death…. away from every good thing

TL;DR if this story seems too long;didn't read, you aren't taking this question seriously enough

All animals go to Hell.

>>540939

Yeah…But there is one problem with your statement. That you've made up an entire verse. There is nowhere, where it is said that there are """"innocent animals"""". Neither there are children mentioned there.

>And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

So, God is worried about people, that cannot differ good and evil, however regarding cattle, he basically tells him about economic aspect.

>>540980

> So, God is worried about people, that cannot differ good and evil,

well now anon, that's silly; we know that the first Sin committed by humanity was the grasping for - and attaining of - the knowledge of good and evil

this is attested to throughout all of Scripture, man knowing right from wrong yet choosing the bad - God even building an argument upon the universal conscience as testifying to His Being in Romans, hence why He also declares that no man has an excuse for his Sin

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

- Rom 2:14,15

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

- Rom 1:20

so when we look at God describing those who do not know left from right in Jonah, we have to be speaking of those too young to understand good and bad, namely; children - and we might even extend that to the mentally impaired

there are other declarations of children not knowing right and wrong in Deuteronomy, and way back in Genesis we see that both Jacob and Esau were said to have done neither good nor evil while in the womb - though we know that all men are conceived in Sin from Psalm 51;5 and so inherit a Sin nature

And as for your little ones, who you said would become a prey, and your children, who today have no knowledge of good or evil, they shall go in there.

- Deut 1:39

so now, having shown that you're wrong about adults not knowing good from evil, and that children are innocent before the throne of God's Judgement Seat - we'll look at animals

well for one thing, God parallels innocent children with those 'cattle' in Jonah, but apparently that's not enough for you - nor is my argumentation that God would only accept an innocent creature as Sacrifice; knowing that the hand of man is so unclean with Sin as to see one killed when He touched the touched the Arc of the Covenant to steady it: so no man could shed enough innocent blood to propitiate God's wrath except Jesus

and i doubt i could convince you that the creatures which God created in Genesis and declared 'good' are innocent, nor sway you with the promise of Scripture that in the end we shall hear every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honour and glory and might for ever and ever!" (Rev 5:13)

and while it would be wonderful to point to the words of Christ who speaks of God tending to the needs of every animal, i'm not sure you would pick up on the implication, so i guess i'll just remind you of Balaam and say you're talking out your donkey m8

>>540999

First of all, I would advise you to tone down and come down from your high horse. Your arrogant tone is insufferable, which means that you have better concerns than state of animals.

While I do agree, that I may have made a mistake while not agreed about people mentioned being children, there is literally nothing, that implies, that animals have same value as Humans, or even close to that, nor that they are close to this even. No one is denying, that God loves everything that was created and "he created all things that they might exist" (Wisdom 1:14), but this doesn't say what you want to imply here. Cattle was always regarded as property, and in old times, as vital part of economy. Thats it. He doesnt say about cattle, because he is concerned that """innocent animals""" (absolutely idiotic statement) would die (or else, we wouldnt have entire bloodbath rituals in Torah), but because it would ruin economy for Humans. And even those who had better opinion about cattle, merely said, that God mentioned them because they were better than plants (on which Jonah mourned about).

Cattle and Animals cannot be innocent, because they are non-sapient beings. As for innocent sacrifice, Indeed, sacrifice of Jesus was needed, but then again, it was needed that of innocent HUMAN, not innocent ANIMAL. And Animal sacrifices were never about removing sins, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)", but it was merely an allusion for Christs sacrifice. One of the biggest example of this was redemption of firstborn donkey by blood of a lamb (in other case you would break his neck.). And even if we want to play an "innocent" token, it will not work, because creation was corrupted by Mankind.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Also it is noteworthy that you mentioned "propitiation of God's wrath" (nice western thought you got there).

Besides that, the fact that God tends needs of every animals, doesnt say much (infact, we know that many of animals die of starvation), asides from fact, that yes, God sustains creation that he loves, on which basically everyone agrees.

But at the end I would recommend that you would take care of your soul first, instead of thinking about animals, that dont have immortal souls at all. Your arrogant tone doesn't say anything good about state of it.

P.S. Also, heres the Steven Anderson (pbuh) video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoridxUp1nA

>>541011

what you mistake for arrogance is in fact, confidence - sola scriptura does that for a buddy - but i understand that we often judge others by our own standards, and appreciate that you can't help but perceive me as holding to your own values

but you're correct in thinking i am belittling your position because you failed on such a rudimentary point of doctrine as inferring 'sapient' adults could not know right from wrong - that is silly, and you should have known that if you're gonna speak to me with such an air of authority

i just piqued your pride, bro - popped your balloon in the most loving and tender manner a nasty old calvinist trol from the *chans is likely capable of… and i'm sure you will return the favour some day if you actually immerse yourself in scripture

so while i appreciate your advice to tone it down, it is not for the wisdom of it, but that it affords me the opportunity to retort; no m8 - up your game

oh but while i'm here, i would again i remind you of Balaam's ass - because for a non-sapient creature, she sure did have a lot to say for herself when God opened her mouth

as will 'every creature' i mentioned in Revelation

latez

>>541016

>Calvinist

>Children are innocent

???

>>540934

only good answer in thread

>>541016

Judging from your atrocious manners and tone, I've guessed that you would be from Reformed tradition.

Anywho, believe as you wish. You've slayed an evil prideful Ortho. But this attitude won't help you on day of the Judgment.

Also, citing a literal miracle, that deviates from normal and is supernatural, doesnt make animals sapient at all.