/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>527989

>Did He purposefully create them in such a way that they would do this?

No. They Just had free will. Limited than ours, but they have it.

>Why did an entire third of all the angels betray God?

I'm concerned more about fate of mankind.

>>528000

>Limited than ours

source?

>>527989

Because of pride and false promises, just like your love life.

We do not know. We only know that was the wrong answer.

I've always found that about one third of humans are clueless about any topic at hand. Whenever you see one of those polls about a fact that should be glaringly obvious or common sense, the amount of people that answer wrong usually number around one third.

Put into this context, it starts to make a lot of sense.

We have an anwer from the ancient Calvinists,

He <i.e. Chrysippus> then uses an illustration of this point which is quite suitable and witty. He says: just as if you throw a cylindrical stone on an inclining and sloping ground, you have been for it the cause and beginning of its tumbling down, but soon it rolls downwards, not because you still make it to, but since such is the shape it has, and the roll-ability of its form; so, too, the order and reason and necessity of fate prompts the kinds and beginnings of causation themselves, but the impulses of our decisions and thoughts (deliberations?) and our actions themselves are directed by each person's own volition and by the dispositions of our minds.62 (NA 7.2.11)

>>528048

But they already knew God is real. What did they even hope to achieve by betraying Him?

God waited a long time to clean up His mess.

>>528000 (tripped)

>I'm concerned more about fate of mankind.

yeah, a lot more that 2/3rds will be canned.

>>528051

You believe God is real; you do well! The devils believe also, and tremble.

http://biblehub.com/james/2-19.htm

Sometimes knowing what's Right doesn't actually affect what gets done.

because the story is about Yaldabaoth/Saklath/Samael the creator of this world and his angels creations betraying him, the war in heaven was fought by lower deities not the most high

This is the real creation story and makes way more sense

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocryphonjohn.html

"And having created […] everything, he organized according to the model of the first aeons which had come into being, so that he might create them like the indestructible ones. Not because he had seen the indestructible ones, but the power in him, which he had taken from his mother, produced in him the likeness of the cosmos. And when he saw the creation which surrounds him, and the multitude of the angels around him which had come forth from him, he said to them, 'I am a jealous God, and there is no other God beside me.' But by announcing this he indicated to the angels who attended him that there exists another God. For if there were no other one, of whom would he be jealous?

>>528068

>Christian fanfiction

>>528071

I really do enjoy the Gnostic memes with this black dude in them, don't know why but I do

>>528051

The Devil knew who Jesus was and still tried to get the Creator to worship His own creation and plotted to murder the Almighty when he got snubbed. The fallen angels are mad with violence and pride.

>>528000

>They Just had free will. Limited than ours, but they have it.

To be honest, their free will was so absolute that, once they took the decision to betray God, they could not go back…we sin and then we can change, an angel is either fr or against god after the rebellion, for its choices are pure will of a purely spiritual being.

>>528055

They know first hand that God is all-powerful. Surely they'd know that God would destroy them in the end. Did they really not want to be below humanity so much that they'd die for it?

>>528000

>free will

>limited

Choose one.

>>528207

The whole board is teaching to them as, before and after they post though, isn't it? Not that I don't get you

>>528208

Yeah. I might be overly-sympathetic towards them, having dabbled in that shit in the past.

I anticipate his reaction would go like:

<heh, 2 posts and the sheeple already banned me. They can't handle the truth! 11!!

Woulda liked a bit of talking and refutation of the heresies. He'll find his way hopefully.

>>528174

Satan must think that there is a way that you can escape God's power

>>528207

Gnostics are hardly Christian

>>528219

Gnosticism is a heretical off-shot of Christianity. They deny the old testament but accept Jesus and the new testament. Dogmatically speaking, that's still closer to Christianity than any other of the non-christians I can think of: mohammedans, buddhists etc.

>>528223

Your wrong. Buddhism is basically compatible with Christianity. You fell for meme Buddhism which is hinduism. But Buddhism like Confucianism is more of a philosophy than a religious order. And what it says is more or less that there are consequences to cruelty, selfishness and wordly attachment. It takes a agnostic approach on matters of the existence of personal deity or what specifically happens to the soul, treating these matters as mysteries of secondary importance. Actually they are kind of like christians that are deprived of specific revelation.

>>528223

>Definition of Christian: follower of Christ

>Gnosticism: denies pretty much everything Christ said

>>527989

>Did He purposefully create them in such a way that they would do this?

No.

Augustine lays out some speculation in (iirc) city of god, where the fall of the angels basically works like this:

>God creates the angels

>each of them is a free-willing embodiment of some good thing.

>satan, the angel of light, begins to believe his own unique form of good is superior to the other forms of good in the other angels.

>other angels come to this conclusion too – that their forms of good are superior to other angels.

>naturally, this is the first instance of the sin of pride.

>satan and his angels eventually think themselves better than god and are expelled from heaven.

>being butthurt, satan goes to fuck up god's next creation – man in eden.

basically, a bunch of angels thought they were better than the other angels, and eventually god himself. i wouldn't say he purposely created them that way, it's just an inevitability that occurs when freewill and qualitative differences exist.

>>528878

strangely lucid post. /christian/ is very resourceful on analysing christianity but fails at graping other religions.

>>529072

1) Buddhism is pre-Christian

2) There are many offshoots of Buddhism asides from the Tibetian one

3) Final objective/point of Buddhism, Nirvana, is to NOT reincarnate and instead go to a higher plane.

Now to say the pre-Christian religions deny Christ is a tad fallacious, you DON'T factually have proof as you have with the Pharisees and Mohammedians

>>527989

>Why did an entire third of all the angels betray God?

There's no reason to believe such a thing happened. Some very vague Bible verses that theologians took and ran with.

to be honest, no one likes tyrants

I think gnostics are probably closer than anyone to committing the unpardonable sin and better back off damn quick. I'm speaking from personal experience here.

>>529249

you can believe this world was made by a lower entity while still believing in the almighty god

>>529250

Which almighty God? I mean you're not doing yourself any favors if you were to say Vishnu was the almighty or, I dunno, Satan for instance. It matters quite a bit.

>>529255

it doesn't make any sense for a perfect god to make such a mess like this world

>>529260

Just stop thinking. I think contrary to popular belief, Luther wasn't being cute when he said "reason is the enemy of faith". If you meditate on theodicy and eschatology all the time and go shopping around for fringe doctrines, you will fuck yourself from the comfort of your own chair just like I did. Just find some other minutuae in your life to worry about.

>>529265

>stop thinking

we have an entire world not thinking, and you see what a mess it is

>>529267

And yet they are creating an even greater mess through thinking. The greatest thinkers were once gathered at a facility in New Mexico, Oppenheimer, Feynman, Fermi among others. And what did they do with all that thought? They created what still lingers in the collective consciousness as the invention of ultimate catastophe which soon after lead to the total devestation of two major metropolitan areas. Meanwhile nearly every technology we have today has proven itself a fugacious convenience by how it has either degraded the environment, or degraded our very humanity. Obviously there is nothing fundamentally good about the intellect. As someone familiar with Gnosticism, I'm sure you'll know its not called "the fruit of knowledge" for nothing.

>>529276

nuclear weapons brought the world to end conventional war so to avoid useless violence

>>529276

>>529260

You make a good point. A relevant Bible quote:

For our boast is this, the testimony of our conscience, that we behaved in the world with simplicity and godly sincerity, not by ==earthly wisdom== but by the grace of God, and supremely so toward you.

2 Corinthians 1:12

I'm most obedient to God when I "listen and obey", rather than trying to intellectualise everything. Case in point: want to stop fapping? Simple: don't touch yourself. Now, there are screeds of information out there about how to defeat sins of the flesh, but a simple, clear and basic message has helped me more than anything else. If I overthink these sins, within 5 minutes I fall back into them. Yes, to stay out of sin, I have to shut down part of my brain. Thinking about sin will cause you to sin. Full stop. One of the stupidest mistakes in my life was studying philosophy at University. Kant in particular damaged my spirituality with a pelagian rationalism.

Too much thinking can actually betray that you don't trust God to help you. Over thinking is a form of despair.

>>529277

That was hardly on purpose though and as soon as they start dropping you'll be pissing your pants with the rest of us.

>>529283

the rich has no interest to lose his power so a nuclear war will never happen, and since a total out war would require nuclear weapons major wars will not happen anytime soon

this granted humanity a span of time to decide if they want to kill themselves or build a new world

>>529282

>Thinking about sin will cause you to sin.

I've found this to be true, and it troubles me.

When one goes to confess his sins, either to God or to man (please don't turn this into a denominational flamewar), he has to think them over. When I do this, I sometimes find myself being tempted again. Clearly, God doesn't want that to happen, but we necessarily must risk doing so when confessing our sin, correct? Am I just missing something?

>>529298

God knows your intentions. And in confession Christians don't need to be overly specific. Confessing "the sin of lust in thought, word, and/or deed x number of times" should be sufficient. Be brief, be sorry, be done is an old formula.

>>528207

Anyone who defies the will of our mods must die. Hail Christ, kill all unbelievers.

>>528000

>No. They Just had free will. Limited than ours, but they have it.

You have that reversed. Man's will is easily influenced and angels are not limited in the manners which make man's will fallible. The will of angels is absolute and as such they are fully culpable for their sins which are done with full knowledge of everything the action entails, unlike man who was deceived. Likewise, forgiveness is not offered to the angels and they would not repent even if given a chance as they already made their choice with full knowledge of all aspects of it.

>>529284

Okay, you just reintroduced the problem of evil after centuries of theology sought to put it to rest. Congratulations

>>529369

meant for

>>529367

>>527989

>Why did an entire third of all the angels betray God?

Why indeed.

The comparisons to us – "Well, why do you sin?" – aren't valid since our sin is rooted in their temptation of Eve, which, for them, didn't exist. Furthermore, their sin was right in the direct face of the vast glory of God, something you and I do not see, and they are without excuse. There was nothing of God they did not see. Yes, indeed, the whole subject is troubling, and worth a series of questions of the Lord come the day, but it doesn't change anything knowing one way or the other.

>Did He purposefully create them in such a way that they would do this?

No, I don't think that follows, but He certainly created them with the capacity to do this, and I think it fair to say that He knew what they were GOING to do. You can call that "free will" if you like.

Nice choice of pic

>>528052

>"God waited a long time to clean up His mess."

>not sure if fedora

I'm not sure I appreciate the tone of that statement.

>>528067

wut? Why would you even COME to this board?!?!

>>528115

>The fallen angels are mad with violence and pride.

based anon who knows where things are at

>>528207

>Gnostics are heretical Christians.

They're not Christians at all. They're closer to being hindus than Christians. (But most close to being Zoroastrians/Parsi) And rule 4 is fairly clear that you're allowed to interject into containment or question threads, but don't go bringing your corruption into main /christian/ threads.

I don't see what's hard about that.

>>528878

No its literally a continuation. A lot of native Buddhist still have deities they adhere to. However Buddhism was founded under Hinduism.

It's not as big in India anymore because Buddhist were in fact huge pussies that Islam absolutely BTFO.

>>528051

Many know their Father and Grandfather and think themselves better than them.

>>528067

Lovecraft was overrated